Onlookers laugh during teen girl's gang rape

[HAL 9000 96]

So what IS the problem or series of problems?

When I was a kid, you fought after school, shook hands afterwards and that was the end of it. Today, cut in front of someone in line and they follow you home and shoot you.

Ahh... those were the days. I wonder where the transition lies. You know, the one where a vendetta is followed through by making a phone call to friends that have access to confidential information for the retaliatory strike.

[HAL 9000 96]

So what IS the problem or series of problems?

Lack of employment opportunities

Lowered high school graduation rates

Generational poverty

Domestic Violence / Broken Homes

Alcoholism

Suicide

Propensity for crime and increased likelihood of being jailed

All of these things are consistent across any economically marginalised population you care to name - from inner city Scotland to inner city Baltimore, Camden NJ to New Zealand and Australia. The resentment also is universal (however misguided or destructive it ends up becoming).

Yep.

Problems identified. So now at this point the bickering can go from style to substance, thereby cutting out the whining that arises from miscommunication and misinterpretation.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hal - I think you ought to know better than that by now

It hasn't worked before no reason to expect it will be any different now. It never ceases to surprise me how even an explicitly clear statement can be misinterpreted to further old arguments.

[HAL 9000 96]

I think that part of the solution lies at home. And that leads us to the problems of poverty, lack of education, etc. But we need to start somewhere. It's not getting better, it's getting worse. The family unit ain't what it was when I was growing up. Look at octo-mom and single mothers with 6 kids from 6 different fathers. Wonder where the problem starts?

You know what, compare what poor people had when you were a kid to what they have now. Not to mention what the have access to and on the cheap or for free. In 2009, I do not buy the I'm poor card. These kids did not bash and rape this girl because they are hungry or oppressed, they did it because they don't give a #### and think they are above the law. Which also explains those who looked on and laughed. When I hear of ####### like this I want to just burn my taxes than give these losers a single dollar.

The problem in all western democratic nations is that people are free to choose their decisions, yet society has to pay for the repercussions and consequences of their actions or lack of. Effectively they are free yet everyone else gets to be burdened with their incompetence and poor choices.

I was taught at a young age that I was responsible for my own actions. Imagine that. I learned what was unacceptable behavior and suffered the consequences if I screwed up. Today, the perpetrator doesn't pay the true price, we as a society do.

This is also assuming that careless behavior only accompanies the lower economical rungs of society. It doesn't. Its no secret that with wealth there tends to come a certain amount of self-aggrandizing that makes those in those sectors feel they are also impune. And when caught- money can certainly buy justice.

Edited October 27, 2009 by HAL 9000

[HAL 9000 96]

Hal - I think you ought to know better than that by now

It hasn't worked before no reason to expect it will be any different now. It never ceases to surprise me how even an explicitly clear statement can be misinterpreted to further old arguments.

Certainly. Its only a way of distinguishing going around in a merry-go-round versus being straight and concise with a point. You're not guilty of the former to much of a degree. The retarded ranting and rambling stops when we go to the point.

[Sandrila 1]

So what IS the problem or series of problems?

When I was a kid, you fought after school, shook hands afterwards and that was the end of it. Today, cut in front of someone in line and they follow you home and shoot you.

that's the scary truth

[*JG* 2]

I'm horrified. I can't even comment beyond that. WTH is wrong with people????

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Is it really the truth though?

Have these problems of violence really moved beyond the failing schools in the traditionally bad areas?

[Peikko 1,575]

The major problem with our teens is that parents have become ineffective for many reasons. The governments choose to hobble parents from actively disciplining their child/ren, by enforcing the "no smacking" rules to prevent physical abuse. How many children can be effectively disciplined with words? Has that EVER worked? Many parents are intimidated by their own kids these days. Menaced for pocket money that is unearned and undeserved, simply so it can be spent on the next "big thing" and making sure they have parity with their friends.

Drugs are a growing problem, but they are merely a symptom of society's excesses. When one has everything available, what's left to want except the illegal and immoral? Before you bash me as homophobic, isn't the reason that powerful figures in society turned to boys is because they could easily procure the girls and need stronger titillation? There's a difference between someone whose genuine mutual attraction is to their own sex and someone who is "experimenting" with a vulnerable victim.

Celebrity culture has effectively disposed of morals in society. We see them barely clothed, behaving badly and expect kids not to emulate their icons. Some hope of that. Drugs, gangsta-rap, shootings have existed for decades, but when the pop stars and celebrities glamorise them without the heavy hand of a morally upright parent to balance the logic behind it, we're going to experience depravity in our culture.

For those who are saying it's a new phenomenon, look back through civilisation. It's not a new problem, it's simply on a much larger scale now that the global population has skyrocketed and the publicity is ever present with the advent of instant 24/7 news. How much GOOD news is ever shown, versus the dramatic headline grabbing disasters and disgusting behaviour?

Still, societal values change every 20 years or so. We can but hope that someone makes these Sports, Hollywood and Pop icons realise they're nothing more than today's fad and their value to society is negligible if they are contributing negatively to it. Instead of letting the lawmakers ease their path through the criminal prosecutions, castigate them openly and publicly to demonise their behaviour and make sure they are seen to be paying the (deserved) price for the low moral standards they introduce.

Violent movies, violent video games, no facing up to the dirty side of death and it's emotional consequences. Children have become so accustomed to violence that it ceases to make them draw clear moral boundaries. When an action has no consequence, how can any lesson be learned?

And the solution to violence in children/teens is to inflict violence on them to teach them that violence is not acceptable?

It is perfectly possible to effectively discipline a child without using violence and it is perfectly possible to teach them that actions have consequences. Parents today have great tools and morality has not disappeared up Paris Hilton's snatch.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not to mention that there remains no really compelling evidence that violent videogames and movies leads to a more violent society.

It's a perennial scapegoat that is pulled out of the bag whenever something happens that cannot be explained - as if finding something external to pin the blame on is necessary to putting these things into context.

I've yet to understand what the benefit was served by the BBFC (British Board of Film Classification) cutting out the headbutts from the fight scenes in The Matrix or Spiderman 2, or exactly what the benefit was of the Australian body, for example, cutting out real world drug references from Fallout 3 (a mature rated video-game).

Censorship is bullshit.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Gene Hunt

[DeadPoolX 9]

The major problem with our teens is that parents have become ineffective for many reasons. The governments choose to hobble parents from actively disciplining their child/ren, by enforcing the "no smacking" rules to prevent physical abuse. How many children can be effectively disciplined with words? Has that EVER worked? Many parents are intimidated by their own kids these days. Menaced for pocket money that is unearned and undeserved, simply so it can be spent on the next "big thing" and making sure they have parity with their friends.

Drugs are a growing problem, but they are merely a symptom of society's excesses. When one has everything available, what's left to want except the illegal and immoral? Before you bash me as homophobic, isn't the reason that powerful figures in society turned to boys is because they could easily procure the girls and need stronger titillation? There's a difference between someone whose genuine mutual attraction is to their own sex and someone who is "experimenting" with a vulnerable victim.

Celebrity culture has effectively disposed of morals in society. We see them barely clothed, behaving badly and expect kids not to emulate their icons. Some hope of that. Drugs, gangsta-rap, shootings have existed for decades, but when the pop stars and celebrities glamorise them without the heavy hand of a morally upright parent to balance the logic behind it, we're going to experience depravity in our culture.

For those who are saying it's a new phenomenon, look back through civilisation. It's not a new problem, it's simply on a much larger scale now that the global population has skyrocketed and the publicity is ever present with the advent of instant 24/7 news. How much GOOD news is ever shown, versus the dramatic headline grabbing disasters and disgusting behaviour?

Still, societal values change every 20 years or so. We can but hope that someone makes these Sports, Hollywood and Pop icons realise they're nothing more than today's fad and their value to society is negligible if they are contributing negatively to it. Instead of letting the lawmakers ease their path through the criminal prosecutions, castigate them openly and publicly to demonise their behaviour and make sure they are seen to be paying the (deserved) price for the low moral standards they introduce.

Violent movies, violent video games, no facing up to the dirty side of death and it's emotional consequences. Children have become so accustomed to violence that it ceases to make them draw clear moral boundaries. When an action has no consequence, how can any lesson be learned?

And the solution to violence in children/teens is to inflict violence on them to teach them that violence is not acceptable?

It is perfectly possible to effectively discipline a child without using violence and it is perfectly possible to teach them that actions have consequences. Parents today have great tools and morality has not disappeared up Paris Hilton's snatch.

I think the point is that although corporal punishment is generally something to be avoided, there might be times with some kids where it's not only warranted, but the only solution available. Since parents can't do anything like that today without the risk of being charged with child abuse, their kids know that they can do almost whatever they want.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Who says you can't spank your child? I've seen people do it - though if you go at it in public with a leather belt wrapped around your hand, its a fair bet that someone is going to say something.

I don't agree that violence is necessary to keeping a child in line - trying to solve discipline problems with your fists is the lazy way out.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Who says you can't spank your child? I've seen people do it - though if you go at it in public with a leather belt wrapped around your hand, its a fair bet that someone is going to say something.

I don't agree that violence is necessary to keeping a child in line - trying to solve discipline problems with your fists is the lazy way out.

Hitting a kid with a leather belt is a far cry from spanking. I know that many parents are worried that if they spank their kid, they'll somehow get child services called on them. All the kid needs to do is say something to the tune of "My mommy/daddy hit me" to a teacher.

I don't think violence is necessary in MOST cases. As I said before, there are SOME cases where it might be the only viable solution.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Who says you can't spank your child? I've seen people do it - though if you go at it in public with a leather belt wrapped around your hand, its a fair bet that someone is going to say something.

I don't agree that violence is necessary to keeping a child in line - trying to solve discipline problems with your fists is the lazy way out.

Hitting a kid with a leather belt is a far cry from spanking. I know that many parents are worried that if they spank their kid, they'll somehow get child services called on them. All the kid needs to do is say something to the tune of "My mommy/daddy hit me" to a teacher.

I don't think violence is necessary in MOST cases. As I said before, there are SOME cases where it might be the only viable solution.

Well you can leave that option open if you want - but its hard to see what lessons are instilled by that except distress and fear on the part of the child.

I would imagine that teachers "know" the children in their care to some extent and have an idea if they're behaving out of character. Obvious injuries on a child do result in calls to child services and are probably more the norm for that sort of thing than a story told to a teacher.

[HAL 9000 96]

I guess it would also help to delineate that there is a difference between corporal punishment and violence. Fluke cases of kids calling 911 on their parents for spanking them is exactly that- or by any logical means, a fluke.