25 Neo-Nazi's protest non-White Immigration in Riverside, CA

[Peikko 1,575]

VW has a hard on for Tancredo, he can do no wrong, which is reminiscent of the attitude of some Jews in Germany too

[Peikko 1,575]

Fine, but the question is, if a group with very dodgy ideological ideas does one thing that you approve of, does that legitimize that group? Careful now

No. However, I my overall disapproval of a group doesn't mean they can't have a good point now and then or that I will ALWAYS disagree with them.

Good point. And If Cleo, or anyone for that matter is black and white on the issues, it means that person is essentially blinded to the actual points being made and unable to debate the matter in good faith and unable to take fully rational positions for an honest debate.

For example, if the neo nazis say illegal immigration is not fair to the people who legally immigrate, how can you argue against that? If you are unable to acknowledge that fact, regardless of who is saying it, then you are not able to rationally participate in the debate, and you have low credibility on all other points you try to make.

Objectivity is a learned skill. As much as I dislike extreme left-wing propaganda, i will try to discern if the extreme left has a valid point, and acknowledge when they do.

Cheers.

I see we have a couple of quislings in the house now.  Excellent.

[Peikko 1,575]

I am very black and white on the issue of whether one should ever support an extremist party. One should not no matter what parts of their policy you might have some sympathy for. It's not hard to understand why. It's very hard to understand why anyone would give such people house room at all.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

VW has a hard on for Tancredo, he can do no wrong, which is reminiscent of the attitude of some Jews in Germany too

More of your trademark hyperbole. I happen to know Tom personally and, like Rush, he is not the same IRL as the liberal press makes him out to be.

I am very black and white on the issue of whether one should ever support an extremist party. One should not no matter what parts of their policy you might have some sympathy for. It's not hard to understand why. It's very hard to understand why anyone would give such people house room at all.

Then, you will never vote **

[DeadPoolX 9]

Fine, but the question is, if a group with very dodgy ideological ideas does one thing that you approve of, does that legitimize that group? Careful now

No. However, I my overall disapproval of a group doesn't mean they can't have a good point now and then or that I will ALWAYS disagree with them.

Well, quite, that's probably how the average German felt in 1938 and look where that got them...

There's a huge difference between systematic genocide and deportation. I want illegals deported, not killed. Even if the Neo Nazis or KKK want them dead (which I don't agree with), their point about illegals not belonging in the U.S. is a valid one.

You don't get it do you?  Do you think in early to mid 1930's when Nazism was really taking hold, that the average German thought that there was going to be any form of genocide?  The Nazi party began as a legitimate party with policies that many German people thoroughly approved of, Germany for the Germans being a central theme.

If you allow a dodgy party any form of respectability because you agree with some part of what they preach then the results can be catastrophic, history shows us this to be so.  

Of course, if you believe the rhetoric of the right, that 'dangerous' party if the Democrats and Obama.  

The situation leading up to and the subsequent support of Nazism was much different than what's in-favor of illegal deportation. Germany was in ruins from WWI and the Treaty of Versailles primarily blamed Germany for the conflict. Germany wasn't allowed a military, their money was rendered useless (leading to an economic collapse even before the Great Depression) and there was a general feeling of hopelessness.

When the Nazis came to power, Hitler promised to revitalize Germany. True, many Germans didn't know the full extent of the Nazi agenda in the 1930s, but they were willing to listen because their country was devastated. If the "Great War" had never occurred, it's likely Hitler or the Nazis wouldn't have gained much -- if any -- legitimacy.

The U.S. is not in the same shape Germany was post-WWI. If for no other reason, that alone precludes the possibility of hate groups gaining the same level of legitimacy and power that the Nazis did.

As an aside... dodgy parties exist all over the place. Both the Republican and Democrat parties often take part in "dodgy" practices. Maybe they're not overt about it like the KKK or Neo Nazis, but every group is guilty of this to some degree.

[Peikko 1,575]

VW has a hard on for Tancredo, he can do no wrong, which is reminiscent of the attitude of some Jews in Germany too

More of your trademark hyperbole. I happen to know Tom personally and, like Rush, he is not the same IRL as the liberal press makes him out to be.

I am very black and white on the issue of whether one should ever support an extremist party. One should not no matter what parts of their policy you might have some sympathy for. It's not hard to understand why. It's very hard to understand why anyone would give such people house room at all.

Then, you will never vote **

Showing once again just how ignorant you are VW.  Why you get into bed with people that don't give a ###### about your heritage is beyond me, but hey, it's a free country.

[Peikko 1,575]

Fine, but the question is, if a group with very dodgy ideological ideas does one thing that you approve of, does that legitimize that group? Careful now

No. However, I my overall disapproval of a group doesn't mean they can't have a good point now and then or that I will ALWAYS disagree with them.

Well, quite, that's probably how the average German felt in 1938 and look where that got them...

There's a huge difference between systematic genocide and deportation. I want illegals deported, not killed. Even if the Neo Nazis or KKK want them dead (which I don't agree with), their point about illegals not belonging in the U.S. is a valid one.

You don't get it do you?  Do you think in early to mid 1930's when Nazism was really taking hold, that the average German thought that there was going to be any form of genocide?  The Nazi party began as a legitimate party with policies that many German people thoroughly approved of, Germany for the Germans being a central theme.

If you allow a dodgy party any form of respectability because you agree with some part of what they preach then the results can be catastrophic, history shows us this to be so.  

Of course, if you believe the rhetoric of the right, that 'dangerous' party if the Democrats and Obama.  

The situation leading up to and the subsequent support of Nazism was much different than what's in-favor of illegal deportation. Germany was in ruins from WWI and the Treaty of Versailles primarily blamed Germany for the conflict. Germany wasn't allowed a military, their money was rendered useless (leading to an economic collapse even before the Great Depression) and there was a general feeling of hopelessness.

When the Nazis came to power, Hitler promised to revitalize Germany. True, many Germans didn't know the full extent of the Nazi agenda in the 1930s, but they were willing to listen because their country was devastated. If the "Great War" had never occurred, it's likely Hitler or the Nazis wouldn't have gained much -- if any -- legitimacy.

The U.S. is not in the same shape Germany was post-WWI. If for no other reason, that alone precludes the possibility of hate groups gaining the same level of legitimacy and power that the Nazis did.

As an aside... dodgy parties exist all over the place. Both the Republican and Democrat parties often take part in "dodgy" practices. Maybe they're not overt about it like the KKK or Neo Nazis, but every group is guilty of this to some degree.

I wasn't suggesting that there was a general trend for supporting Nazi ideology, but even here we have people who are prepared to LISTEN to what an EXTREMIST party has to say BECAUSE they support some part of what that party are doing.  Very similar rational as to why German people supported Nazism and that cosy 'Germany for the German people' which was a very large part of their success.  That is the parallel I was getting at, that extremism can succeed if they can persuade enough people to believe that what they are selling is something legitimate.

[Peikko 1,575]

The last part is just ridiculous. Taking part in dogy practices is one thing, not something to be condoned, but it is very different from having an agenda who's core aim is to rid a country of anyone who they don't believe really belongs, no matter what their legal status is.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Fine, but the question is, if a group with very dodgy ideological ideas does one thing that you approve of, does that legitimize that group? Careful now

No. However, I my overall disapproval of a group doesn't mean they can't have a good point now and then or that I will ALWAYS disagree with them.

Well, quite, that's probably how the average German felt in 1938 and look where that got them...

There's a huge difference between systematic genocide and deportation. I want illegals deported, not killed. Even if the Neo Nazis or KKK want them dead (which I don't agree with), their point about illegals not belonging in the U.S. is a valid one.

You don't get it do you?  Do you think in early to mid 1930's when Nazism was really taking hold, that the average German thought that there was going to be any form of genocide?  The Nazi party began as a legitimate party with policies that many German people thoroughly approved of, Germany for the Germans being a central theme.

If you allow a dodgy party any form of respectability because you agree with some part of what they preach then the results can be catastrophic, history shows us this to be so.  

Of course, if you believe the rhetoric of the right, that 'dangerous' party if the Democrats and Obama.  

The situation leading up to and the subsequent support of Nazism was much different than what's in-favor of illegal deportation. Germany was in ruins from WWI and the Treaty of Versailles primarily blamed Germany for the conflict. Germany wasn't allowed a military, their money was rendered useless (leading to an economic collapse even before the Great Depression) and there was a general feeling of hopelessness.

When the Nazis came to power, Hitler promised to revitalize Germany. True, many Germans didn't know the full extent of the Nazi agenda in the 1930s, but they were willing to listen because their country was devastated. If the "Great War" had never occurred, it's likely Hitler or the Nazis wouldn't have gained much -- if any -- legitimacy.

The U.S. is not in the same shape Germany was post-WWI. If for no other reason, that alone precludes the possibility of hate groups gaining the same level of legitimacy and power that the Nazis did.

As an aside... dodgy parties exist all over the place. Both the Republican and Democrat parties often take part in "dodgy" practices. Maybe they're not overt about it like the KKK or Neo Nazis, but every group is guilty of this to some degree.

I wasn't suggesting that there was a general trend for supporting Nazi ideology, but even here we have people who are prepared to LISTEN to what an EXTREMIST party has to say BECAUSE they support some part of what that party are doing.  Very similar rational as to why German people supported Nazism and that cosy 'Germany for the German people' which was a very large part of their success.  That is the parallel I was getting at, that extremism can succeed if they can persuade enough people to believe that what they are selling is something legitimate.

Yes, but Germany was looking for a scapegoat after WWI. They needed "someone" or "some group" to blame for their losses.

If the U.S. suffered a similarly catastrophic defeat, I have no doubt that some people -- maybe many people -- would support certain hate groups. A national scapegoat would be desired and who better than immigrants?

However, the U.S. is not in the same position Germany was at the time. Without such an occurrence, it's unlikely very many will give credence to what a group of nutballs preach.

I know what you're getting at, but seeing the situation in an entirely black-and-white manner is simplistic at best. There's simply no requirement to either agree or disagree with everything any group espouses. I agree with some policies of both the Republican and Democratic parties. There's no need to be completely one way or the other.

And if I need to repeat myself, I am in-favor of deporting illegal immigrants. On that issue and that issue alone, I agree with these groups. I don't agree with non-white hatred (citizen, PR or illegal) and/or the possible extermination of any of them.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

VW has a hard on for Tancredo, he can do no wrong, which is reminiscent of the attitude of some Jews in Germany too

More of your trademark hyperbole. I happen to know Tom personally and, like Rush, he is not the same IRL as the liberal press makes him out to be.

I am very black and white on the issue of whether one should ever support an extremist party. One should not no matter what parts of their policy you might have some sympathy for. It's not hard to understand why. It's very hard to understand why anyone would give such people house room at all.

Then, you will never vote **

Showing once again just how ignorant you are VW.  Why you get into bed with people that don't give a ###### about your heritage is beyond me, but hey, it's a free country.

Yea, I'm ignorant coz I don't fall in line with the "good" brown people, as defined by the left, no? Why would you understand anyone who doesnt hype racial identity politics and has no use for White guilt types who coddle minorities because they need "protection" and can't fend for themselves without condescending lberal policies that allow for their "deficiencies"?

You've been spoonfed ignorant ####### about other races all your life, so, you have a need as a benevolent White person to see all minorities as dependent on the Dimocrats to be sheltered and "saved", but I don't need anyone who wants to treat minorities as pets, like the Dimocrats have done for decades. If that makes me ignorant in your eyes, I accept that to be so. I happy to know that, between us, I am the one who can take pride in my heritage without pigeon holing or defining people by theirs. It may make you feel good about your intentions, but the road to hell is paved with so much of that. In reality, you're little different than a Neo-Nazi; you're just more subtle.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Sofiyya

[Peikko 1,575]

I am simply seeing neo nazi groups in black and white terms Deadpool, not the immigration issue itself - that is very, very murky. My point has been throughout this thread, support a neo nazi group at your peril. You seem to be persuaded that on this issue, you agree with them but does that agreement translate into support of the group, because that is a very dangerous path to tread. If you begin the path to legimization of an organization such as this because you do, there is a very big danger in that. Do you simply not understand that at all?

[Peikko 1,575]

VW has a hard on for Tancredo, he can do no wrong, which is reminiscent of the attitude of some Jews in Germany too

More of your trademark hyperbole. I happen to know Tom personally and, like Rush, he is not the same IRL as the liberal press makes him out to be.

I am very black and white on the issue of whether one should ever support an extremist party. One should not no matter what parts of their policy you might have some sympathy for. It's not hard to understand why. It's very hard to understand why anyone would give such people house room at all.

Then, you will never vote **

Showing once again just how ignorant you are VW.  Why you get into bed with people that don't give a ###### about your heritage is beyond me, but hey, it's a free country.

Yea, I'm ignorant coz I don't fall in line with the "good" brown people, as defined by the left, no? Why would you understand anyone who doesnt hype racial identity politics and has no use for White guilt types who coddle minorities because they need "protection" and can't fend for themselves without condescending lberal policies that allow for their "deficiencies"?

You've been spoonfed ignorant ####### about other races all your life, so, you have a need as a benevolent White person to see all minorities as dependent on the Dimocrats to be sheltered and "saved", but I don't need anyone who wants to treat minorities as pets, like the Dimocrats have done for decades. If that makes me ignorant in your eyes, I accept that to be so. I happy to know that, between us, I am the one who can take pride in my heritage without pigeon holing or defining people by theirs. It may make you feel good about your intentions, but the road to hell is paved with so much of that.

What are you talking about VW, really?  You seem very worked up about it whatever it is but it certainly doesn't describe my interactions with people at all.

[Ken y Leidys 20]

Yea, I'm ignorant coz I don't fall in line with the "good" brown people, as defined by the left, no?

When you and your Moroccan spouse get beaten by a group of these thugs, you'll rethink what you said. I've had several run-ins with Neo-Nazi's in this area, and I never started a fight with them, yet they always felt that I was some sort of "threat" to them. I also don't want them attacking my Fiancée when she arrives here.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yea, I'm ignorant coz I don't fall in line with the "good" brown people, as defined by the left, no?

When you and your Moroccan spouse get beaten by a group of these thugs, you'll rethink what you said. I've had several run-ins with Neo-Nazi's in this area, and I never started a fight with them, yet they always felt that I was some sort of "threat" to them. I also don't want them attacking my Fiancée when she arrives here.

You think I haven't experienced racism or discriminaton, Ken? I'm brown, almost 60 and lived as a child in the South during the Civil Rights movement. I began my legal career as a civil rights advocate. I believe as I do because I know the damage White guilt has done to minorities, not because I'm naive about Neo-Nazis.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Sofiyya

[Ken y Leidys 20]

Here is more garbage expounded by these fascists: Save our Culture www.freedom14.org

They also got beaten up for this junk, too.