dual citizenship

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Just Bob,

This might sound stupid, but .... how do we find out what any particular country requires to keep citizenship when naturalizing here? I tried googling, and got this link: http://www.800citizen.com/dualCitizenship.htm which says a German citizen would lose citizenship there when naturalizing here - no mention of anything that can be done to retain it. I thought maybe you'd have better information. I just want to double check to see if my husband will need to do anything next year.

venusfire

Venusfire,

since you asked, the German government now allows "dual citizenship" IF and only IF the German national applies for a "Beibehaltungsbescheinigung" (BBG) upfront. It takes between 4 and 6 months on average, cost about 300 Euros (190 if denied) and the tricky part is that the applicant has to show reasons why to keep the German citizenship and why to become USCs at the same time. If one would become a USC (or citizen of any other nation) before approval, they would automatically lose the German citizenship. There's no way to fix that retroactively.

The problem is, the reasons they accept are really tricky (not being able to vote is no reason for them), so the applicant has to prove basically that they would lose out on a job they are qualified for, because it's exclusive to USC, often due to security clearance. The whole thing is much more complex, so there's a group on Yahoo (zweiPaesse) that deals exclusively with that stuff and helps those who are trying to become dual citizens. I'm a member of that group and will start working on my application in a month or so.

Also, what bill (theoretical one, or actual one being considered, I mean), and what change would be made? Just curious. I know - I should be more aware of what is going on in the world...

Since applicants for naturalization have to take the Oath of Allegiance to the US, they are at the same time have to abandon any loyalty to their former country of citizenship. Knowing that the US and Germany, Japan, and Italy, just to name a few examples, have been enemies before, you can imagine what conflict arises to a "dual citizen" once the sh*t hits the fan, ten, twenty, thirty years from now. Which side to do fight for?

For that reason, the US considers USCs USCs, but nothing else and doesn't care about "other" citizenship. But all it takes to solve the aforementioned potential dilemma is a bill that would require naturalized citizens to proof that they withdraw their "old" citizenship. (It's actually be a bit more complicated, since some countries, such as GB, doesn't care about the US citizenship of UK citizens, so I'm simplifying here.) Whether or not previously naturalized USCs will be grandfathered in is anybody's guess, but for sure every new applicant for US citizenship would have to decide then and there where his or her loyalty ultimately lies.

I think this is a highly interesting subject that would deserve a separate thread.

[freetv 7]

I just wanted to ask a question. Take China... a country that doesn't allow you to have dual citizenship... If you become an American the u.s. government isn't go to call the chinese embassy and inform them nor would you use an american passport to enter China..... nor would you even have the same name as that on your american passport (if your a girl). So if my wife leaves amerca on her american passport and uses her Chinese passport to enter China how would they know she is an american unless we say something? The chinese border police don't care about exit stamps and even if they do America doesn't have them so again how would they know? Now if I (the american) were to try and become chinese they would take my passport away (but couldn't I just say I lost it and need a new one at the american embassy... assuming that the chinese government doesn't say anything to them?). Now I know most countries in the world deal with each other a lot as far as people go, some share databases and others even hold coop war games together with the u.s. but china isn't one of them. There is no way the government in america could know if I did anything illegal in china because even the chinese government in beijing can't know if I did something illegal in say far west or south china (I know this for a fact after talking to chiefs of police and former miltary). So maybe in some rare situation you could get around dual citizenship.

I can't tell you if you get away with it and how long. You may be able to commit crimes for a long time until they put a rope around your neck. What I do know, however, is that claiming to be a US citizen is a serious offense and I can't imagine that claiming to be a Chinese citizen is seen as a harmless joke by the Chinese government. I wouldn't want to spend a decade in a wet dark prison cell for that. But that's just me; you may feel differently about that.

Wait a min, how is it a crime to enter China as a chinese citizen if you are indeed a chinese citizen? Who said I would claim to be a us citizen illegally when I am indeed an american citizen and nothing else? I was just putting out some possiblities within the confines of the system. I do not believe leaving on an american passport and entering on an american passport while using your own countries passport to enter the other country is illegal in any way. The only thing I think that would create problems is when you try to enter America on a non u.s. passport when you are in fact an American. If you avoid that, everything else SHOULD be outside the realm of u.s. government domain. Dual citizenship borders everything that is legal and illegal on international law. This is from the American embassy in Beijing, "We encourage all Chinese Americans to enter China on their American passport because the Chinese government doesn't allow embassy staff to help Americans that have entered China on a Chinese passport because they view them solely as Chinese citizens." So I think that settles the whole idea of dual citizenship of countries that don't allow it, at least from the American point of view. But lets say you are held by North Korea and you entered on a German passport.... you will be viewed as a German and only as a German. So in reality, what ever you enter the country as that is your ONLY nationality. Just like a German American that enters America on an American passport, in the eyes of the American government you are an American and it doesn't matter if the German government expects you to go to basic training in Berlin because you better show up at your local court house for jury duty or your going to jail.

Your wife is a US citizen and China does not allow dual citizenship correct? In that case your wife is no longer a Chinese citizen.

Leaving on an american passport and entering on an american passport while using your own countries passport to enter the other country is not illegal if your country allows dual citizenship. It could and might be illegal if the country does not allow dual citizenship.

So your saying, China does not allow dual citizenship but chinese who are already US CITIZENS are allowed to use their Chinese passports to enter China? Doesn't that contradict their own rule on dual citizenship?!

I guess if you can post a link from China's side saying that former chinese citizens can use their un-expired passport to enter China then we would all know that it is not illegal.

Well she will be a citizen when the time comes, but as of now she is not. I know many Americans enter China on a Chinese passport and nothing is ever said, however if something ever comes up like say drugs and you go to jail the American Embassy can't help you. China's point of view is a lot like America, don't ask and don't tell. It does contradict their own rules but that is China. There are laws and then there is reality, and that involves every area of life there. For example if you marry a Chinese you should be able to apply for a Res Permit after you get there that allows you to work, but most can't, even though its the law. Countries like Iran or other hard line middle eastern states would never allow anyone to do that and it is even a crime to even carry another passport, but those countries are more the exception than the rule.

As far as America and the past, before the 1980's America took a very hard line stance to dual citizenship. During WW2 some American pilots fought for the RAF and in doing so lost their American citizenship and gained British citizenship. Before the 1980's becoming a citizen of another country caused them to lose their American citizenship. After the 1990's the reality changed and today America basically allows dual citizenship, not by law but by simply not enforcing the laws that are already in place. Today taking an oath, even in a country like China that will take your passport, will not cause you to lose your American citizenship. The only way you could lose it would be to go to an Embassy and swear in front of an consular offical. I personally like the new system because their were cases where someone got "tricked" into losing their American citizenship.

Anyway, it seems most people know how to either formally or informally keep their citizenship so everything is good for now

Edited October 21, 2009 by freetv

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

My wife applied for italian citizenship and since Italy doesn't allow a woman to change her last name after marriage she will have her US passport with her married name and her italian passport with her maiden name. However, on pag 4 of an italian passport there's an option to put a note "married XXXX" where XXXX is the married last name.

Here's a thought: don't change your name when getting married. This way all the names in both passports are identical.

I kept my name, my wife kept her name, and I don't feel less than a man because of it. I would assume that not even Bruce Willis had a crisis when Demi Moore thought switching to Demi Willis wasn't such a great idea.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Freetv,

I'm not sure if I misunderstood the whole thing or what? If so, let me find out where I messed up.

You stated China does NOT allow dual citizenship. Correct?

If so, somebody who took the Pledge of Allegiance and became a US citizen would have lost his Chinese citizenship, Correct?

A US citizen would need a visa in order to enter China. Correct?

If so, a USC entering China without a visa, but with an invalid Chinese passport claiming to be a Chinese citizen when he's NOT is a crime. Correct?

So where's the misunderstanding exactly, I wonder?

Use the exact example the other way around. Imagine the US would not allow dual citizenship. A Chinese citizen enters the US without a visa but with an invalid passport, claiming to be a USC. Any idea what legal consequences that would have?

[freetv 7]

Freetv,

I'm not sure if I misunderstood the whole thing or what? If so, let me find out where I messed up.

You stated China does NOT allow dual citizenship. Correct?

If so, somebody who took the Pledge of Allegiance and became a US citizen would have lost his Chinese citizenship, Correct?

A US citizen would need a visa in order to enter China. Correct?

If so, a USC entering China without a visa, but with an invalid Chinese passport claiming to be a Chinese citizen when he's NOT is a crime. Correct?

So where's the misunderstanding exactly, I wonder?

Use the exact example the other way around. Imagine the US would not allow dual citizenship. A Chinese citizen enters the US without a visa but with an invalid passport, claiming to be a USC. Any idea what legal consequences that would have?

1. They would lose it in theory but not pratice upon becoming an American citizen, so allthough they are in fact no longer a Chinese citizen going by the law on the books, the Chinese government still treats them as a citizen. This is proven by the many accounts of economy crimes commited by Chinese Americans while on their Chinese passport in China. The governmment doesn't say "Oh you broke the law when you used your Chinese passport" or say "Oh your no longer a Chinese because you have an American passport" they say "You are only a Chinese and you will face our laws just as if you would have never left the country." Now of course this could change at any moment, but as of now they simply ignore the fact that your American Citizen if you use a chinese passport to enter the country.

2. Yes an american needs a visa to go to China but the question of an invalid passport was answered above sense they seem to honor those passports at poe.

3. The only exception to this rule is with Children, if a child is born to a Chinese american in America he is only an American with no rights to Chinese citizen by birth.

4. I am not saying that in 1o years, let alone 6 months that it will still be this way. Communist countries could change the way they do business in the blink of an eye and you could very well end up in jail.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Freetv,

by my own admission, I don't know Chinese laws, customs, and bribery. Thus, I can't comment on what people get away with in China. You do, which is why you stated previously, "there's the law, and then there's reality."

I do know that several people from countries that don't allow dual citizenship pull this off. I might work perfectly . . . until it doesn't anymore. In our modern times, where computers take over virtually all aspects of life, my guess is that sooner or later some people will find themselves in handcuffs right after entering their former country of citizenship.

I guess it's a very personal decision on how much risk to take.

Nothing to add, really.

[freetv 7]

Freetv,

by my own admission, I don't know Chinese laws, customs, and bribery. Thus, I can't comment on what people get away with in China. You do, which is why you stated previously, "there's the law, and then there's reality."

I do know that several people from countries that don't allow dual citizenship pull this off. I might work perfectly . . . until it doesn't anymore. In our modern times, where computers take over virtually all aspects of life, my guess is that sooner or later some people will find themselves in handcuffs right after entering their former country of citizenship.

I guess it's a very personal decision on how much risk to take.

Nothing to add, really.

I agree, in the future it will be very hard to pull that kind of thing off and I think anyone that doesn't need to live in China for a long period of time should simply pay the $130 for the visa and use their American passport. For most people in the world they can simply sign a paper (like germany, phil) or even do nothing at all and be 100% legal. Sadly China isn't one of those places and so in many ways it is good that there are loop holes in their system.

[mario777 0]

guys i have read this post for fun but i can`t but ask you one thing.

I know many, and MANY people in US with 2 or 3 different citizenships and nobody has any problem with that!

I know Italians ,Romanians,Germans,UK...etc... all these people have more passports and nobody EVER had problems!

And simple question - after you get your US citizenship how your old country will know that?

How? Only if you tell them,right?

One my friend have 3 citizenships,Slovenia,UK and US! Got 3 passports and he is using all of them when he travels to different countries. No problems,no questions!

Some people have their properity in their home European countries,and they will go to live there when they retire,so why should they go to their country of birth, tell that they are US citizen now and they dont need their original citizenship revoced! I dont get it?

[internetkafe 0]

Turkey recognizes dual/triple/quadruple citizenship. You do not have to even notify Turkish authorities upon obtaining another citizenship. Turkish border police lets a Turk with a US passport enter the country without paying a visa/stamp fee if you also show them Turkish ID. You do not have to use Turkish passport as a Turk to enter Turkey.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

guys i have read this post for fun but i can`t but ask you one thing.

I know many, and MANY people in US with 2 or 3 different citizenships and nobody has any problem with that!

I know Italians ,Romanians,Germans,UK...etc... all these people have more passports and nobody EVER had problems!

And simple question - after you get your US citizenship how your old country will know that?

How? Only if you tell them,right?

One my friend have 3 citizenships,Slovenia,UK and US! Got 3 passports and he is using all of them when he travels to different countries. No problems,no questions!

Some people have their properity in their home European countries,and they will go to live there when they retire,so why should they go to their country of birth, tell that they are US citizen now and they dont need their original citizenship revoced! I dont get it?

I sent an email to the italian consulate the same day I naturalized to let them know.

Obviously, they didn't reply, but that's another issue (Italian consulate in NYC is infamous for its inefficiency).

[Viky 0]

OK, so i found out that Romania accepts dual citizenship, I am about to apply for a U.S. passport and my romanian passport expires next year, I intend to keep my romanian citizenship so I will try to renew my romanian passport. Now the question is do I renew it in my maiden name or my married name.

I hope somebody has an answer.

Thanks.

Anca,

My romanian passport is expired now and I am not even considering to get a romanian one even if I will have dual citizenship. Why? There are a lot of papers and fees and the romanian embassy/ consulat are the worse (everything is handwritten and they will tell you one thing on the phone and another thing when you'll get there). I e-mailed them to ask about the papers that I need and they told me something different than what they have on their website but I was not suprised. It will be easier I heard if you go to Romania and get your passport there but I advice you to get it with your married name but that means you have to get your american marriage license recognized at "starea civila romana" and that takes time or bribe or both. For me it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on it.