Bans 'do not cut abortion rate'

[HAL 9000 96]

What I'm getting at is that once technology can guarantee the survival of the fetus then this debate about where he/she has rights no longer exists. Yes I'm sure there will be regulations in its use but if it can save lives I'm sure it will be implemented in some form once it has been determined as safe.

That isn't necessarily true. The ethics would depend entirely on the circumstances. As your entire premise is hypothetical, the ethics can only be hypothetical guesswork.

It makes for a nice Sci Fi tangent to this story that can even bring people together.

Well... offhand you'd have to ask who owns the equipment, for one

But again its so out there as to be useless in terms of this debate.

Certainly. Since the taboo would be that the government couldn't do this because that would be liberal and socialist, then it would have to be privately owned...

You can certainly see the potential for repetitive scifi books on the topic.

Eventually science will invalidate our current thinking, always has always will.

If the hoped for breakthroughs in birth control come about much of this debate will indeed become moot so long as there is concensus that access to birth control is also a fundamental right

Just like the debate on human cloning. Some 'moralists' sure won't mind growing new body parts after years of abusing the ones they already have.

Agreed on all counts. Although I would really like to replicate my.... oh, never mind

Oh snap... you don't mean your ears?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Of course, because they address the issue from an extremely narrow world view.

Simpson - you really need to stop taking 2 + 2 and coming up with fried eggs.

[The_Dude 1,142]

You are aware that you are arguing with the equivalent of a doorknob right?

[Peikko 1,575]

No, the baby outside the womb can be cared for by anyone. Inside the womb only one person.

Imposing pregnancy on women who do not wish to go through with it will save no lives at all in fact, I would predict a greater number of deaths. Pregnant women who do not wish to be pregnant will attempt to kill the fetus, even if in the process they kill themselves. This is documented fact.

Whats a documented fact? That SOME woman have went to these extremes, well yes but I think that goes with out saying. I hope your not trying to make the argument that this number is huge because I would have to pull out the BS card.

I got a kick out of the first sentence in the second paragraph, because according to what you said it would only take one woman to die when attempting to kill the fetus for what you said to be true. What were you comparing it to, I mean you dont consider the fetus a life, maybe your looking down the road(finally) to birth. That said are you trying to make the argument that the population would decrease in a society that doesn't allow abortions? BS

You can't have that debate while this is not reality. I suspect, and I hope that the ability to regulate whether one would become pregnant during intercourse will have improved leaps and bounds by that time, and that women who are currently prevented from using contraception for whatever reason, will no longer be prevented from doing so. Abortion is not the first resort for anyone - it is the last.

No apparently adoption is, sad very sad. With options like adoption why is abortion even on the table.

As I said, try getting the historical context for the abortion issue and maybe your views on what this is about might change, at least enough to understand why it is important for there to be access to all forms of birth control, including abortion. This is not a simple issue, but the facts are simple. A fetus relies on the womb for its survival. The womb is part of a woman's body and as such she has absolute control over what happens to it. Killing a fetus is not murder. Adoption is not a good solution in all instances.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[Peikko 1,575]

At least try to remember that the abortion issue is not a way to control wayward teens.

[HAL 9000 96]

.

Imposing pregnancy? NO one is imposing pregnancy - She CHOSE to be pregnant when she spread her legs. In case anyone hasn't heard, that is how babies are made.

And in case you haven't heard, if HE would use a freaking condom that wouldn't happen.

Your misogyny is record setting, Bubba. Momma must be so proud of you.

Right on sister.

Who are exactly the ones pleading for girls to prove they love us?

Don't you find it truly hypocritical that the ones fighting for the guvamint to stay away from our health care can't wait to get the guvamint to control what a woman does with her body?

[_Simpson_ 250]

Hard to believe, I know, but birth control does fail.

But let's see - it would seem that these "moral" arguments can be summarized as follows:

"Well you should have considered that before you opened your thighs, you silly tart".

"I'm don't give a ####### if your child grows up in squalor or in a care home, the important thing in this overpopulated world is that you have a chance at life, regardless of the quality of it"

Ding ding! Huzzah!

Birth control fails(personal I think most of the time it has to do with the woman forgetting to take it), but yes your right, thats not a secret and when a couple chooses to have sex they no this is a chance they are taking. I in no way see how the baby should be held accountable for this decision.

In a care home, interesting now you have got into the business of putting a rating system on the quality of life. I would rather be in a care home than not given the opportunity to experience life. Have you considered adoption as a option, plenty of people out there looking.

[HAL 9000 96]

On planet Joe,

No, the fact is that you've already redefined what life and murder is. We're trying to restore it back to where it should be. Back to reality, and truth.

Truth stands for redefining things as he sees them. Heaven have mercy on all of us if we ever crash land there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

As cleo said it isn't appropriate in all circumstances.

What you don't understand is that these things are case by case and should be treated as such, rather than some blanket of relative morality across the whole of society.

Sometimes abortion isn't the right option either - the point surely is that people have access to contraception and have the right to govern their own bodies, and not have things imposed on them on the basis of the alleged rights of a parasite.

[HAL 9000 96]

Eventually technology will allow fetuses to grow outside a human womb...what then?

Excellent question. Women that WANT motherhood that are willing to have an oocyte removed from their bodies for the reproductive means would likely be happy to see that fertilized oocyte go to zygote, embryo, fetus, and living baby. Fathers too I guess.

Perhaps the ones who don't want motherhood should have thought of that during the conception?

Because the event of conception is exactly planned and the woman knows exactly when this occurs.

You might want to call it now, winner.

Then again, in the tangent you're sprouting nonsense on, you'd be smart to re-read and notice that unwanted pregnancies would hypothetically transfer over to these devices that are as yet nonexistent.

More Joelogic pulling something from where it ain't.

She does know exactly when it occurred. At least one of those times she was screwing, correct? It doesn't happen from swimming in the sea.

Do you really don't know or are you seriously that stupid?

1. The risk to the woman's life is higher, much higher.

2. The fetus could be viable.

Whatever makes you feel better.

Yeah... try that again. Don't try to be ignorant as much.

[HAL 9000 96]

No, the baby outside the womb can be cared for by anyone. Inside the womb only one person.

Imposing pregnancy on women who do not wish to go through with it will save no lives at all in fact, I would predict a greater number of deaths. Pregnant women who do not wish to be pregnant will attempt to kill the fetus, even if in the process they kill themselves. This is documented fact.

Whats a documented fact? That SOME woman have went to these extremes, well yes but I think that goes with out saying. I hope your not trying to make the argument that this number is huge because I would have to pull out the BS card.

I got a kick out of the first sentence in the second paragraph, because according to what you said it would only take one woman to die when attempting to kill the fetus for what you said to be true. What were you comparing it to, I mean you dont consider the fetus a life, maybe your looking down the road(finally) to birth. That said are you trying to make the argument that the population would decrease in a society that doesn't allow abortions? BS

You can't have that debate while this is not reality. I suspect, and I hope that the ability to regulate whether one would become pregnant during intercourse will have improved leaps and bounds by that time, and that women who are currently prevented from using contraception for whatever reason, will no longer be prevented from doing so. Abortion is not the first resort for anyone - it is the last.

No apparently adoption is, sad very sad. With options like adoption why is abortion even on the table.

Let us know how it feels to carry a baby to term.

Just like you're pointing out (a bit incorrectly... coathanger abortions and their complications were much more prevalent than what you're giving them actual credit for... HINT... one is too many) about actual numbers... the actual numbers of organizations and individuals willing to take 100% care of a pregnant woman's needs that will eventually make it to likely give it up for adoption are possibly less than the real numbers of women getting coathanger abortions...

You are aware that you are arguing with the equivalent of a doorknob right?

Round or hook type? I must know.

[HAL 9000 96]

Hard to believe, I know, but birth control does fail.

But let's see - it would seem that these "moral" arguments can be summarized as follows:

"Well you should have considered that before you opened your thighs, you silly tart".

"I'm don't give a ####### if your child grows up in squalor or in a care home, the important thing in this overpopulated world is that you have a chance at life, regardless of the quality of it"

Ding ding! Huzzah!

Birth control fails(personal I think most of the time it has to do with the woman forgetting to take it), but yes your right, thats not a secret and when a couple chooses to have sex they no this is a chance they are taking. I in no way see how the baby should be held accountable for this decision.

In a care home, interesting now you have got into the business of putting a rating system on the quality of life. I would rather be in a care home than not given the opportunity to experience life. Have you considered adoption as a option, plenty of people out there looking.

W/out sperm there is no fertilization. Put on a darn condom. Slip it on, slip it off. Why should a female have to change her body's hormonal balance for our pleasure?

[_Simpson_ 250]

As cleo said it isn't appropriate in all circumstances.

Well of course its not, I dont recall saying it was, for example as I have said before when the mothers life is danger. Can you think of another reason? How about when the mother decides she wouldnt be able to give the child up for adoption and you knowing that if she chose to have the child it would grow up in a broken home, I would say that adoption wouldnt be a option either?

What you don't understand is that these things are case by case and should be treated as such, rather than some blanket of relative morality across the whole of society.

You just dont get it, I have never used a blanket. I know things are complicated and there are different solutions for different people and theres plenty of choices out there. Let me give you some examples, have the baby and keep it, give up parental rights to a relative who could raise this child all the while not cutting the child out of the mothers life completly( I say this because I understand that it would be very very hard to totally give up your child), and then theres adoption. What I am saying is that I dont see that abortion should be a option. If your going to try to write me off as not understanding please at least try to find a good reason.

Sometimes abortion isn't the right option either - the point surely is that people have access to contraception and have the right to govern their own bodies, and not have things imposed on them on the basis of the alleged rights of a parasite.

alleged rights, hmm I guess you dont want to address the moral issue of this

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Going back to technology when is the male pill going to come out! Seriously its a conspiracy.

[_Simpson_ 250]

W/out sperm there is no fertilization. Put on a darn condom. Slip it on, slip it off. Why should a female have to change her body's hormonal balance for our pleasure?

I dont get what your saying in relation to what it was I was trying to say.