Despite Rising Unemployment, DHS Prepares for Amnesty

[Niels Bohr 72]

Look at China, they have more people than the US and yet they are highly capable of sustaining themselves. And, that's not all. There are more illegal immigrants in China than it is in America.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I believe both parties have indicated a desire to do this - so why wouldn't the DHS prepare itself for that...

Because the electorate are, in a majority larger than that for "The Public Option" against amnesty for illegal aliens.

What they support is application and enforcement of the law as it currently stands. And if anyone throws out the "well you get the policy decided by the party in power", how do you get around the fact that in the eyes of the majority of the American people, on the subject of illegal immigration and amnesty, both parties are flat out wrong?

They may be wrong and the "majority" may well be against illegal immigration, but the electorate continues to elect representatives from the two party system knowing full well what their position is on this issue.

That tells me that either the illegal immigration problem isn't as bad as claimed, or (more likely) that it isn't as important as other issues in determining who wins elections.

I fail to understand how you can continue to talk complete rot. The electorate know full well that any vote for a party other than the Blue or the Red will be a wasted vote. They vote because the choice is lacking. They protest strongly, as they did when GWB proposed his "amnesty" program and hope their voice is loud enough to turn back the tide once again.

So far, the electorate have been heard and heeded. With the Dimocrats now in absolute control of Federal Government, likely this time they will be ignored. Should this legislation be brought to vote before November 2010, it may well be the death knell for a number of representatives' political careers, as it damn well should.

The problem with what you're saying is the assumption that the electorates responsibility to representative democracy is to choose from a set menu and not write the menu themselves.

[Heracles 417]

It's an economic problem, which is why the numbers of illegals entering this country has dropped significantly. Fix the economic disparity between ourselves and our neighbors to the south and we'll all eventually have a more fondness towards them the way we do with our neighbors to the north.

America has 50 million people in poverty, before the crisis, yet you want us to fix the ever so corrupt South America. That is like someone saying I want world peace or to end poverty and just hope for the best.

America has to deal with its poor first before it can start helping Mexico. The only way it can begin to do so is by ensuring only those permitted to be here, can work in any job. Don't for a second think that all Mexicans are poor either. Many are mega rich, including the third richest man in the world.

Look at China, they have more people than the US and yet they are highly capable of sustaining themselves. And, that's not all. There are more illegal immigrants in China than it is in America.

At what, 50 cents an hour.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Yeah. But, the rural part of China are self sufficient. You get your own fields to grow crops, and many jungles have fruits. I'm sure China rather not spend resources going into those rural regions because of the distance, and scale.

[sjr09 155]

Only someone who does not give a ####### about their country or their people would condone illegal immigration.

Especially during the worst recession since the great depression.

Amnesty isn't condoning anything. It's applying a pragmatic solution to the problem when there are no other viable alternatives to dealing with the millions of undocumented workers already here. I'm sure if someone could come up with another reasonable and viable option, that would be considered. There isn't...just like there wasn't back when Reagan granted amnesty.

So tell me then, how many countries have amnesties? considering the US is going for its second run. Actually immigration was an important aspect of the human development index rankings, with Australia just moving up to the second spot. Strange that this same country has zero tolerance of illegal aliens.

Besides that, what you are suggesting is that the US should allow even more unskilled illegal aliens to enter at will, all while the country's manufacturing base is dying rapidly. Why do you guys disingenuously make it out to be anti-immigration? seriously why? As I am yet to find one person who is anti-immigration as a whole, not one. What people are against is illegal aliens.

I for one will be in accord with your statement. My point was about us who go the legal route.

Immigration is immigration in terms of it's impact on the economy. You are trying to make the argument that you importing a spouse doesn't have the same toll on the economy as someone who is here as undocumented worker. Your logic fails.

You fail to understand the point of this topic.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It's an economic problem, which is why the numbers of illegals entering this country has dropped significantly. Fix the economic disparity between ourselves and our neighbors to the south and we'll all eventually have a more fondness towards them the way we do with our neighbors to the north.

America has 50 million people in poverty, before the crisis, yet you want us to fix the ever so corrupt South America. That is like someone saying I want world peace or to end poverty and just hope for the best.

America has to deal with its poor first before it can start helping Mexico. The only way it can begin to do so is by ensuring only those permitted to be here, can work in any job. Don't for a second think that all Mexicans are poor either. Many are mega rich, including the third richest man in the world.

You have to look into the causes of poverty in America....there is not a correlation between undocumented workers and the working poor unless they are being included. Job loss overseas, executive pay ratios, the dismantling of labor unions, the assault on our public school system - those are all the leading culprits into poverty in America.

[Pooky 3,786]

I believe both parties have indicated a desire to do this - so why wouldn't the DHS prepare itself for that...

Because the electorate are, in a majority larger than that for "The Public Option" against amnesty for illegal aliens.

What they support is application and enforcement of the law as it currently stands. And if anyone throws out the "well you get the policy decided by the party in power", how do you get around the fact that in the eyes of the majority of the American people, on the subject of illegal immigration and amnesty, both parties are flat out wrong?

They may be wrong and the "majority" may well be against illegal immigration, but the electorate continues to elect representatives from the two party system knowing full well what their position is on this issue.

That tells me that either the illegal immigration problem isn't as bad as claimed, or (more likely) that it isn't as important as other issues in determining who wins elections.

I fail to understand how you can continue to talk complete rot. The electorate know full well that any vote for a party other than the Blue or the Red will be a wasted vote. They vote because the choice is lacking. They protest strongly, as they did when GWB proposed his "amnesty" program and hope their voice is loud enough to turn back the tide once again.

So far, the electorate have been heard and heeded. With the Dimocrats now in absolute control of Federal Government, likely this time they will be ignored. Should this legislation be brought to vote before November 2010, it may well be the death knell for a number of representatives' political careers, as it damn well should.

The problem with what you're saying is the assumption that the electorates responsibility to representative democracy is to choose from a set menu and not write the menu themselves.

When the cost of writing their own menu runs into the millions of dollars, and the people affected are toward the lower end of the wealth scale, the results should be obvious. Accusing the electorate of being sheep is disingenuous. They have no realistic third/fourth/fifth option and never will.

So they raise their voices at the representation they have and hope that the fear of not being reelected next time around does the trick. When it's all people have, it is what you will see.

[Heracles 417]

This is just another conscription of slave labor. Giving amnesty will make these people legal, then they will demand minimum wage (or more) and cannot compete with Americans. The current illegal workers will be tossed out of work when they demand higher wages and will be replaced by a new flood of illegal immigrants to work cheaply. The new legal immigrants will be eligible to be dependent on the government making many new votes for Democrats among their family and friends. Republicans will have a new wave of illegal immigrants to work cheaply and everyone will be happy. It will have little effect on the ucrrent job situation, except for illegal immigrants who will be replaced by the new illegal immigrants.

When the country (politicians) wish to get serious about this and stop using slaves as a political football, they will impose a $500,000 per day tax on each illegal immigrant employed. Seize busineses and property to pay the tax. The economic incentive will immediately halt, the illegals will return to where they CAN work (all by themselves, the same way they got here) and the situation will be solved. Slavery will be ended once and for all. But until the economic penalty outweighs the economic risk, employers will continue to seek illegal (cheap, basically slave) labor and the illegals will continue to respond to he economis call. No amount of fence will keep them out. No need for deproting anyone. They came here for economic reasons and they will leave for economic reasons.

I am appalled at the lack of respect shown to our fellow man in continuing this aberation of holding people as second class citizens, living in poor conditions, unable to report abuse. It is nothing more than the continuation of slavery in this country without the need to house or care for the slaves or the need to buy them. It is racist, and inhumane.

It is not about jobs, Our good jobs are being shipped overseas legally to avoid draconian taxes, we are exporting good jobs OUT. THOSE are the jobs WE need. But politicians want you to be distracted by the jobs issue while they feed their personal interests (dependent voters and/or cheap labor).

Gte a clue. About every 20 years or so we need to draft more illegals into slavery. Such is the price of maintaining anunderclass, it has to be refilled every so often and this is oh so more efficient than slave ships. It is about that time.

Spot on there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I believe both parties have indicated a desire to do this - so why wouldn't the DHS prepare itself for that...

Because the electorate are, in a majority larger than that for "The Public Option" against amnesty for illegal aliens.

What they support is application and enforcement of the law as it currently stands. And if anyone throws out the "well you get the policy decided by the party in power", how do you get around the fact that in the eyes of the majority of the American people, on the subject of illegal immigration and amnesty, both parties are flat out wrong?

They may be wrong and the "majority" may well be against illegal immigration, but the electorate continues to elect representatives from the two party system knowing full well what their position is on this issue.

That tells me that either the illegal immigration problem isn't as bad as claimed, or (more likely) that it isn't as important as other issues in determining who wins elections.

I fail to understand how you can continue to talk complete rot. The electorate know full well that any vote for a party other than the Blue or the Red will be a wasted vote. They vote because the choice is lacking. They protest strongly, as they did when GWB proposed his "amnesty" program and hope their voice is loud enough to turn back the tide once again.

So far, the electorate have been heard and heeded. With the Dimocrats now in absolute control of Federal Government, likely this time they will be ignored. Should this legislation be brought to vote before November 2010, it may well be the death knell for a number of representatives' political careers, as it damn well should.

The problem with what you're saying is the assumption that the electorates responsibility to representative democracy is to choose from a set menu and not write the menu themselves.

When the cost of writing their own menu runs into the millions of dollars, and the people affected are toward the lower end of the wealth scale, the results should be obvious. Accusing the electorate of being sheep is disingenuous. They have no realistic third/fourth/fifth option and never will.

So they raise their voices at the representation they have and hope that the fear of not being reelected next time around does the trick. When it's all people have, it is what you will see.

The electorate aren't sheep (well some are - if the partisan hackery on these boards is any indication), but there isn't really any reason why the public can't start a new grass roots movement for a 3rd party option if there is the desire for it. I'm actually surprised that the current, major parties haven't fractured by now, given their divisions.

[Niels Bohr 72]

I don't think masses are the same thing as individuals. This debate seems a non-issue or something that doesn't even seem debateable. The mass don't vote. The individual does.

I will tell that I am a sheep, not a herd.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Niels Bohr

[Pooky 3,786]

I believe both parties have indicated a desire to do this - so why wouldn't the DHS prepare itself for that...

Because the electorate are, in a majority larger than that for "The Public Option" against amnesty for illegal aliens.

What they support is application and enforcement of the law as it currently stands. And if anyone throws out the "well you get the policy decided by the party in power", how do you get around the fact that in the eyes of the majority of the American people, on the subject of illegal immigration and amnesty, both parties are flat out wrong?

They may be wrong and the "majority" may well be against illegal immigration, but the electorate continues to elect representatives from the two party system knowing full well what their position is on this issue.

That tells me that either the illegal immigration problem isn't as bad as claimed, or (more likely) that it isn't as important as other issues in determining who wins elections.

I fail to understand how you can continue to talk complete rot. The electorate know full well that any vote for a party other than the Blue or the Red will be a wasted vote. They vote because the choice is lacking. They protest strongly, as they did when GWB proposed his "amnesty" program and hope their voice is loud enough to turn back the tide once again.

So far, the electorate have been heard and heeded. With the Dimocrats now in absolute control of Federal Government, likely this time they will be ignored. Should this legislation be brought to vote before November 2010, it may well be the death knell for a number of representatives' political careers, as it damn well should.

The problem with what you're saying is the assumption that the electorates responsibility to representative democracy is to choose from a set menu and not write the menu themselves.

When the cost of writing their own menu runs into the millions of dollars, and the people affected are toward the lower end of the wealth scale, the results should be obvious. Accusing the electorate of being sheep is disingenuous. They have no realistic third/fourth/fifth option and never will.

So they raise their voices at the representation they have and hope that the fear of not being reelected next time around does the trick. When it's all people have, it is what you will see.

The electorate aren't sheep (well some are - if the partisan hackery on these boards is any indication), but there isn't really any reason why the public can't start a new grass roots movement for a 3rd party option if there is the desire for it. I'm actually surprised that the current, major parties haven't fractured by now, given their divisions.

Money is a damned good reason nothing happens. It costs a hell of a lot of money to campaign in an election here. There is no way a "grass roots" party would even get close to being competitive.

I don't think masses are the same thing as individuals. This debate seems a non-issue or something that doesn't even seem debateable. The mass don't vote. The individual does.

I will tell that I am a sheep, not a herd.

It's a flock of sheep, not a herd.

Just sayin'

[웃 910]

Here's a newsflash:

90% of the Hispanic landscapers you see are illegals. 90% of all kitchen staff that are of Hispanic descent are also illegal ALIENS!!! It is not just a few here and there. They are in every single city throughout the country; even in my little town of Northville, MI (with less than 7000 residents)! It is incredible!!!! I know this first-hand through some of my wife's previous jobs. I've driven two of her coworkers home and they both told me they are here illegally. And that the entire staff are illegals!! Even major companies (I won't say any names) are staffed with illegal ALIENS!

**So what do I think to do? Well, you can't round up 35 million illegal ALIENS and deport them. That is just wrong, even if they did come here illegally.**

I say legalize all of these ALIENS!!! Give them 6 months to come forward for their US citizenship. Slap them with a $5,000 (or $10,000) fine that is attached to their social security number and is paid off over a lifetime. Make sure that they cannot ever vote because it would permanently change our political system (for the worse). Build a big fence across the US/Mexican border. After the 6 month period expires and the majority of the 35 million illegals have stepped forward THEN you crack the whip on illegal immigration. After the 6 month period expires, no questions ask, all illegals caught thereafter are deported. Now 35 million people can stop living in paranoia, get drivers licenses, BUY CARS (a lot of them are scared to drive and would purchase a vehicle if they had a license), and as an added bonus 35 million people will pay (over their lifetime) $10,000 a piece for the inconvenience ($350 billion). Case closed!

Edited October 6, 2009 by Confucian

[Niels Bohr 72]

Go and flock yourself!

Edited October 6, 2009 by Niels Bohr

[sjr09 155]

Only someone who does not give a ####### about their country or their people would condone illegal immigration.

Especially during the worst recession since the great depression.

Amnesty isn't condoning anything. It's applying a pragmatic solution to the problem when there are no other viable alternatives to dealing with the millions of undocumented workers already here. I'm sure if someone could come up with another reasonable and viable option, that would be considered. There isn't...just like there wasn't back when Reagan granted amnesty.

If these guys are processed and granted residency, there better be a sound system in place to stop it from happening again. Otherwise this country will end up the laughing stock of the developed world. To be honest, I am sick of having to defend the country's incompetence abroad against people who use this ####### against me, to attack the country.

Converting everyone's social security card to EAD standard would nip the issue in the butt overnight. As would increasing the fines to a price point that actually affect an employer, like $15k per offense, with possible jail time for multiple offenders.

More like 50,000.00 per offense and for SSN to a EDA all they need to do is inforce E-Verify no need for EAD E-Verify is in place NOW.

[Heracles 417]

You have to look into the causes of poverty in America....there is not a correlation between undocumented workers and the working poor unless they are being included. Job loss overseas, executive pay ratios, the dismantling of labor unions, the assault on our public school system - those are all the leading culprits into poverty in America.

How does adding 20 million more uneducated, unskilled people, who cannot even speak English, fix this? Ironically Australian unions are what drive most raids against those employing illegal aliens.

If you have 10 Americans competing for a job, how does adding 3 more illegal aliens that are paid under the table help the 10 people? These 10 people then need to compete with another 10 people, who they too lost a position to an illegal alien. Then when one of these 20 gets a job with a legitimate employer, the employer can ask for less knowing there is 19 people applying and reading to take the job. That is how supply and demand works. That is why blue collar workers get paid peanuts here but up to $200K in Aus. It's not rocket science, just supply and demand coupled with adequate government acts.

Sorry but various unions killed the jobs here. One of my good friends that I have totally polar political views with in Aus, who is union rep there, cannot believe what goes in cities like NYC or with the old UAW. Where they got to decide who is hired and if someone is fired. Which union shop takes on a project job and so on. That is not what Unions are about in Aus. Unions are there to organize fair pay, protect against actual unfair dismissal and demand a safe working environment for their staff. Nothing more. Whereas, unions here became like the mob; became the untouchables.