Brazilian fiancé out of status

[Rings 10]

Perhaps the term "civilized country" was a poor choice of words on my part.

What I meant with it is countries that have evolved to a status quo that doesn't involve arranged marriages, marriages where daughters in their infant age are promised to another family's son, Muslim countries where men can be legally poligamists, and countries that do not allow 10 to 12 year old girls to be married. I'm sure there's a better term for that, but I can't think of one right now.

BECAUSE people jump into marriages without getting to know their partner first, we have such a high divorce rate. That is EXACTLY the point I've been making here. Internet chat isn't a substitute for a year of courting, another year of living together, and a third year of being engaged, before getting married. You may think otherwise, but I don't.

With all due respect, the comment you made was not with exception to arranged marriages nor was it directed at anyone with a statement that suggested an arrange marrriage. nevertheless that was not the point of why I made my comment to you. My comment to you was based purely upon respect of other members and their ferelings and no what you "think" the reasons for their marriage are.

You are correct in your statement that people "jump" into marriages without thinking first, but people do that on a normal basis anyway.... Think of all those that got married in Vegas on a whim.. even celebraties have made that dumb mistake... sorry Brittney Spears.

Who are you to determine what "internet chat" is a substitute for? You do not know these people and you are not entitled to place judgement upon their decisions. It's not your life and it's not a benefit on a forum intended to help people for you to post nonesense that means nothing to the original question.

How dare you assume that anyone is less legitimate than you when you have not walked in their shoes? Shame on you.

[Rings 10]

Sorry for the misspelled words. My stupid computer sucks and it won't let me edit for some reason

[Gemmie 142]

Perhaps the term "civilized country" was a poor choice of words on my part.

What I meant with it is countries that have evolved to a status quo that doesn't involve arranged marriages, marriages where daughters in their infant age are promised to another family's son, Muslim countries where men can be legally poligamists, and countries that do not allow 10 to 12 year old girls to be married. I'm sure there's a better term for that, but I can't think of one right now.

BECAUSE people jump into marriages without getting to know their partner first, we have such a high divorce rate. That is EXACTLY the point I've been making here. Internet chat isn't a substitute for a year of courting, another year of living together, and a third year of being engaged, before getting married. You may think otherwise, but I don't.

With all due respect, the comment you made was not with exception to arranged marriages nor was it directed at anyone with a statement that suggested an arrange marrriage. nevertheless that was not the point of why I made my comment to you. My comment to you was based purely upon respect of other members and their ferelings and no what you "think" the reasons for their marriage are.

You are correct in your statement that people "jump" into marriages without thinking first, but people do that on a normal basis anyway.... Think of all those that got married in Vegas on a whim.. even celebraties have made that dumb mistake... sorry Brittney Spears.

Who are you to determine what "internet chat" is a substitute for? You do not know these people and you are not entitled to place judgement upon their decisions. It's not your life and it's not a benefit on a forum intended to help people for you to post nonesense that means nothing to the original question.

How dare you assume that anyone is less legitimate than you when you have not walked in their shoes? Shame on you.

Nicely said.

I wish people wouldn't be so judgmental of others' relationships.

Bob- Who are you to say that it should be "a year of courting, a year of living together, a year of engagement"? I see from your timeline that this is what you and your wife did. Good for you. Likewise, communicating over the internet is what other couples have done, so do not be a hypocrite. What if someone were to tell you that marrying someone from another country was stupid, or that you should be courting for longer than a year, etc? You'd pretty much tell them to mind their own business, so why not do the same?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Gemmie

[justashooter 430]

Nobody chooses internet chat as a substitute for courting. Some people simply have no choice.

You're very fortunate if you were able to do all of those things before getting married. Most of us are not that lucky.

oh, come on, jim. that's like saying mice ate all of those holes in swiss cheese.

nobody is born with a "fiancee". we all choose our spouses. some of us choose people we meet in a street market. some of us choose people we meet on the internet. we all know where the people are before we consider them as mates.

we all have opportunities to meet people face to face, and some of us choose to do so, while others choose not to.

you seem like a very well organised guy. you are very logical in processing information, in general. how you missed the obvious logic in this question would seem an unanswerable question. the truth is that the answer lies within you. i'm sure you already know what it is.

[Tahoma 2,292]

Nobody chooses internet chat as a substitute for courting. Some people simply have no choice.

You're very fortunate if you were able to do all of those things before getting married. Most of us are not that lucky.

oh, come on, jim. that's like saying mice ate all of those holes in swiss cheese.

nobody is born with a "fiancee". we all choose our spouses. some of us choose people we meet in a street market. some of us choose people we meet on the internet. we all know where the people are before we consider them as mates.

we all have opportunities to meet people face to face, and some of us choose to do so, while others choose not to.

you seem like a very well organised guy. you are very logical in processing information, in general. how you missed the obvious logic in this question would seem an unanswerable question. the truth is that the answer lies within you. i'm sure you already know what it is.

The truth is, I think Jim's observation is spot-on.

As I see it, the issue is not about our choice of how we meet someone. Love is going to find us, whether it's at the market or whether it's on the internet. In that sense, you truly don't have a "choice." The issue is about getting to know someone once we have met them.

Maybe I'm missing your point about what you believe to be the "question." And, maybe you would care to share what you believe to be the "obvious logic" derived from that question.

Note: since my name isn't "Grasshopper," I doubt if the answer lies within me.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Nobody chooses internet chat as a substitute for courting. Some people simply have no choice.

You're very fortunate if you were able to do all of those things before getting married. Most of us are not that lucky.

oh, come on, jim. that's like saying mice ate all of those holes in swiss cheese.

nobody is born with a "fiancee". we all choose our spouses. some of us choose people we meet in a street market. some of us choose people we meet on the internet. we all know where the people are before we consider them as mates.

we all have opportunities to meet people face to face, and some of us choose to do so, while others choose not to.

you seem like a very well organised guy. you are very logical in processing information, in general. how you missed the obvious logic in this question would seem an unanswerable question. the truth is that the answer lies within you. i'm sure you already know what it is.

I've had two prior spouses, and I didn't "choose" either of them. I had no say in the matter. For reasons I'll probably never fathom, I just fell in love with them. Love is one of those intangibles that just escapes normal logic. If you can gain enough insight into someone using email, online chat, or even writing letters to each other, then it's perfectly possible to fall in love with them. I've read love letters people have written in the 18th and 19th centuries to people they've never physically met, so I know it's possible. It's the inner personality - the 'soul' - that you fall in love with - not the face.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Love is one of those intangibles that just escapes normal logic. If you can gain enough insight into someone using email, online chat, or even writing letters to each other, then it's perfectly possible to fall in love with them. I've read love letters people have written in the 18th and 19th centuries to people they've never physically met, so I know it's possible. It's the inner personality - the 'soul' - that you fall in love with - not the face.

Jim,

that's just beautiful. As a huge admirer of the novels of Jane Austen, the caretaker of a cat named Mr. Darcy, and a formally "certified" philosopher who specialized his studies in metaphysics, I can truly appreciate this. But maybe you can help me to understand this a bit more.

In order to fall in love, even by accident, we have to expose ourselves to a circle of possible candidates. Some people are party animals, go to bars or dancing; I happened to just walked into a business back in 2002, saw my now wife and was immediately mesmerized by her, right on the spot.

The same could happen to someone going shopping, fishing, skydiving, or sailing, or being on vacation. But I fail to understand how you can fall in love, by accident, with someone 10,000 miles away. As a California resident, in order to "meet" a person in Australia, China, Sibiria, or Vietnam, you'd have to look there, online or off line.

Now . . . I also understand that someone who might have immigrated to the US from China, Russia, or Australia, just to name a few examples, might have some ties to his former country, and thus keeps in contact. This might be even more the case when the former cultural background is significantly different from the one in the US. But, and that's my question to you: what does it take for a skinny white guy from SanFran to chat with women in for example, China, Vietnam, Transylvania, or India?

Clueless as I probably am, I'd think someone who's looking there is probably specifically attracted to woman from such a region, for reasons only known to him and like-minded people. Not that there's anything "wrong" about this, but one would have to assume that a woman from a totally different cultural background, one that has not been exposed to the corrupt US culture, would make a much better spouse, in order to go through the exhausting ordeal of dealing with USCIS.

Can you give me some insight into this?

Thanks!

[Rings 10]

Love is one of those intangibles that just escapes normal logic. If you can gain enough insight into someone using email, online chat, or even writing letters to each other, then it's perfectly possible to fall in love with them. I've read love letters people have written in the 18th and 19th centuries to people they've never physically met, so I know it's possible. It's the inner personality - the 'soul' - that you fall in love with - not the face.

Jim,

that's just beautiful. As a huge admirer of the novels of Jane Austen, the caretaker of a cat named Mr. Darcy, and a formally "certified" philosopher who specialized his studies in metaphysics, I can truly appreciate this. But maybe you can help me to understand this a bit more.

In order to fall in love, even by accident, we have to expose ourselves to a circle of possible candidates. Some people are party animals, go to bars or dancing; I happened to just walked into a business back in 2002, saw my now wife and was immediately mesmerized by her, right on the spot.

The same could happen to someone going shopping, fishing, skydiving, or sailing, or being on vacation. But I fail to understand how you can fall in love, by accident, with someone 10,000 miles away. As a California resident, in order to "meet" a person in Australia, China, Sibiria, or Vietnam, you'd have to look there, online or off line.

Now . . . I also understand that someone who might have immigrated to the US from China, Russia, or Australia, just to name a few examples, might have some ties to his former country, and thus keeps in contact. This might be even more the case when the former cultural background is significantly different from the one in the US. But, and that's my question to you: what does it take for a skinny white guy from SanFran to chat with women in for example, China, Vietnam, Transylvania, or India?

Clueless as I probably am, I'd think someone who's looking there is probably specifically attracted to woman from such a region, for reasons only known to him and like-minded people. Not that there's anything "wrong" about this, but one would have to assume that a woman from a totally different cultural background, one that has not been exposed to the corrupt US culture, would make a much better spouse, in order to go through the exhausting ordeal of dealing with USCIS.

Can you give me some insight into this?

Thanks!

I met Loke online on a book forum. He had made this stupid game that I had to moderate for kids online all across the world. I added him to msn because I had all these questions. I didn't know where he was from and I didn't care. I needed answers so I could run this game properly. So I start shooting off questions at him like a mad woman and he was a COMPLETE A-HOLE to me.

He was like.... I don't have time to answer your questions lady. I was like FINE then shove your dumb game up your @#%$& you freaking #######... Anyway, at some point he had to help me or run his own dumb game himself so he started talking to me about the game and I looked at his profile and told him he was cute, then he start shooting comments about how he has a girlfriend and to back off and I was like .. whatever dude you are not all THAT great and I am married anyway so get a freaking life.

I still had no clue he was Australian and he had no clue where in the world I was. I was just some crabby woman yelling at him over a game.

Then we get through the game and began being slightly civil to each other and started talking tons and he was having relationship troubles and I was going through a divorce. 4 years later we are married.

So explain again how that wasn't an accident? Explain how it happened that I just suddenly found this "Aussie" man and was like... yeah I will take that one and pay a fortune for him and then do all sorts of paperwork just because it sounds like a great idea!......

Accidents happen and I love that &%#$# freaking stupid game making %^%$# that I am going to smother in kisses and make him pay for what he put me through sexy freaking man who drive me nuts... grrrrrrrrrrr

Edited October 8, 2009 by Rings

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Love is one of those intangibles that just escapes normal logic. If you can gain enough insight into someone using email, online chat, or even writing letters to each other, then it's perfectly possible to fall in love with them. I've read love letters people have written in the 18th and 19th centuries to people they've never physically met, so I know it's possible. It's the inner personality - the 'soul' - that you fall in love with - not the face.

Jim,

that's just beautiful. As a huge admirer of the novels of Jane Austen, the caretaker of a cat named Mr. Darcy, and a formally "certified" philosopher who specialized his studies in metaphysics, I can truly appreciate this. But maybe you can help me to understand this a bit more.

In order to fall in love, even by accident, we have to expose ourselves to a circle of possible candidates. Some people are party animals, go to bars or dancing; I happened to just walked into a business back in 2002, saw my now wife and was immediately mesmerized by her, right on the spot.

The same could happen to someone going shopping, fishing, skydiving, or sailing, or being on vacation. But I fail to understand how you can fall in love, by accident, with someone 10,000 miles away. As a California resident, in order to "meet" a person in Australia, China, Sibiria, or Vietnam, you'd have to look there, online or off line.

Now . . . I also understand that someone who might have immigrated to the US from China, Russia, or Australia, just to name a few examples, might have some ties to his former country, and thus keeps in contact. This might be even more the case when the former cultural background is significantly different from the one in the US. But, and that's my question to you: what does it take for a skinny white guy from SanFran to chat with women in for example, China, Vietnam, Transylvania, or India?

Clueless as I probably am, I'd think someone who's looking there is probably specifically attracted to woman from such a region, for reasons only known to him and like-minded people. Not that there's anything "wrong" about this, but one would have to assume that a woman from a totally different cultural background, one that has not been exposed to the corrupt US culture, would make a much better spouse, in order to go through the exhausting ordeal of dealing with USCIS.

Can you give me some insight into this?

Thanks!

Every relationship I've ever had has been the result of either a chance meeting, or an introduction by a friend. I've never gone looking for a relationship - they've always just happened. I met my first wife through a friend at school. I met my second wife while visiting a mutual friends home.

I was introduced to my current fiancee by a friend of mine who is from Vietnam. He knew I hadn't dated since my divorce several years before, and he also knew she hadn't dated anyone since her divorce which was also several years prior. He thought we might have some things in common, since we were both single parents. We traded emails for a year, but it never progressed beyond a casual friendship.

In the spring of last year my friend invited me to visit Vietnam with him. He planned the trip for late summer. I agreed, but by the time late summer arrived I couldn't arrange the time nor spare the money, so we rescheduled for November.

When I met my fiancee in person we were not yet engaged, nor really even boyfriend/girlfriend. We were just good friends. We became a lot closer on that trip, and I promised to return for a longer visit as soon as I could. I ended up returning for the entire Christmas holiday the following month. By the end of the second trip, I knew I was in love.

So, in answer to your question, I did not fall in love without actually meeting my fiancee face to face. I also did not chat with her online with webcam, or call her on the phone before I met her in person, though we do that every day now for at least an hour or two. Aside from not being able to be physically intimate, our online chat sessions are about as close to being together in the same room as I can imagine. I've gotten to know her very very well this way. I know how she spends each day. I know what problems she's having. I know how she's feeling. Basically, I know her as well as if we were living together, except that I probably spend more time talking with her each day than most married couples do. I can easily see how two people could fall in love online.

I realize that some men are specifically attracted to women of a particular race or culture, and go out of their way to find women that appeal to them. These people might meet on race-specific dating sites. I've never really been like that. I think there are beautiful women in just about every race and culture. Being in an extremely multicultural part of California, I see them every day. If I had a particular penchant for Vietnamese women I wouldn't have to go to Vietnam to find one. The San Francisco bay area is about 4% Vietnamese, and it's over 10% in San Jose. It's almost impossible to live here and not know some Vietnamese people, or Chinese, or Korean, or Mexican, or Pakistani, or Afghani, or Indian, or just about any other race or nationality.

By the way, my sister gave me some advice a long time ago about dating that I've found useful. I had just broken up with my girlfriend (before I met my second wife), and we were talking about dating. I mentioned the possibility of meeting girls at nightclubs or bars. She asked me "What do you get if you pick up a girl at a bar?". I didn't know. She said "You get a girl who hangs out in bars."

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Rings, JimVaPhuong,

thank you for sharing. Both of your stories are wonderful. Looks indeed that both of you met your now spouse through intervention of the fates. Congratulations!

Bob

P.S.

Jim, what's the secret of your user-ID?

[Rings 10]

Thanks for understanding Bob and also for taking the time to read it.

All I can say is that the more that damn man pissed me off the more I couldn't stop talking to him. He just drove me crazy and he was rude and I couldn't understand why. It was almost like I had to figure him out. One day I got so angry that I decided to stop talking to him and then about a month later I got this really long beautiful letter from him telling me that he couldn't stop thinking about me and that he was in love with me. I felt the same way about him and I was scared. I was only 26 years old and already failed at one marriage. I was afraid to jump into love again and I cried when I finally admitted to myself that I loved him too even if he was a stubborn evil man. I think part of the reason we hated each other so much was because we were trying to stay out of love...

I know that does not make sense, but back then we didn't think it would even be possible to be together. I think we both wanted to push away and love said "screw you both you are going to do this"

And now he has been here for over two years living with me and you know what.. he does not even have one A-HOLE bone in his body hahah he is the nicest most kind man in the universe. I don't know what the heck happened, but I can assure you this... It was definately not intended for me to even get married again let alone fall in love with someone of a specific culture lol.

Thanks for listening I talk too much *hugs

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Rings, JimVaPhuong,

thank you for sharing. Both of your stories are wonderful. Looks indeed that both of you met your now spouse through intervention of the fates. Congratulations!

Bob

P.S.

Jim, what's the secret of your user-ID?

"Va" (pronounced "vah") means "and" in Vietnamese.

[TBoneTX 45,266]

"Va" (pronounced "vah") means "and" in Vietnamese.

And? Well? Nu? Si man?

Since this thread is hopelessly off the rails (and pleasantly so), let me push it farther off with my own story. On 1 April 2006 (no foolin'), I had what I swore would be my last-ever date with any psycho American chick. I spent several months researching foreign possibilities: Asia (too far, language barriers, cultural differences too strong), Russia (uncertainty about women's motives except for Siberia, which was way too distant), and Latin America (where women's values seemed to match what I prized about myself and what American chicks always seemed to disrespect or disregard). The robust Colombia, uh, matchmaking industry made me uneasy. I did sign up with a large local agency that ran airplanesful of guys to various Central/South American locales where hundreds of eager women awaited; I never thusly tripped, but got a lot of nice e-mail traffic from many such chicas. About the same time, on the SIXTH page of a bored Google search, I stumbled upon the family-run agency in Ecuador that eventually introduced me to Cristina. With radar activated, I grilled the agency owner for 90 minutes (on his dime!) before I convinced myself that he was on the up-&-up.

This was a concerted, objective search. I personally do not believe in the "prerequisite" of being helplessly swept away by "the cosmic power of love." My criteria were: Is my potential partner available to me -- situationally, emotionally, etc.? Next: Can I accept her flaws in addition to her assets? (Everyone is a mixture of positive & negative qualities, and even one negative aspect among many positives, if I cannot abide it or would have to overly compromise my principles regarding it, is grounds for moving on.) Finally: What is the reflection of myself that I get as a result of spending time with that person? (This is distinct from "how I feel about her or how she feels about me"; rather, "do I feel like a million bucks, or like a whipped cur?")

With these criteria in mind, the chief issue was the development of the three aspects of a relationship: gain information and evaluate our rapport by e-mail, then by phone, then in person. E-mail with C. was easy. At the end of our first phone call, in her rusty English, she said, "T-B., whatever happens between us, promise me one thing: Please, please: don't ever LIE to me." It was then that I knew that she could be the real McCoy (the paucity of Irish in Ecuador notwithstanding).

I then visited. She told me later that she took one look at my "ugly Gringo shirt" (a common complaint of Ecuatorianas, I later realized) and nearly took off running then 'n' there. However, she gave me the chance. We traveled to her parents' town. I had an engagement ring in my pocket (she suspected this but didn't know), and I was evaluating our interaction extremely closely, with well-developed radar on full alert for any incompatibility or strife. I eventually told her that I had the ring, and would she accept it? She considered this overnight and agreed. Our process for deciding was mutual: evaluate each other and consider our future prospects together, decide rationally that we could "grow into love" over time, and proceed.

Had anything rung my alarms during the in-person phase of the evaluation, I would have gone home with the ring in my pocket and returned it to the jewelry store. (I had visited THREE jewelry stores before I found one that would accept a potential return.) Similarly, had C. expressed any doubts, I would have graciously accepted them, apologized for anything that was correctable and of my doing, parted, returned home, re-evaluated myself thoroughly, and eventually begun anew.

This was absolutely my preferred way of developing a relationship (and it was so refreshingly different from dealing with the American chicks with whom I'd interacted, with all of their preconceived demands, baggage, and hang-ups). The quality of our decision sustained us through long separations, 6+ months at USCIS, both being treated like outright criminals at the consulate, and the natural adjustments to togetherness thereafter. Today (Oct. 9) is the year anniversary of C.'s U.S. entry, and as much as I want to kick her hindquarters sometimes (well, often), I'm not regretting anything, except perhaps the tragic charitable-donation of nearly all of my Gringo shirts. However, she'd sure as heck better wake up in time to make my brown-bag lunch before I leave for work, si man.

[rebeccajo 14]

Happy "anniversary" TBone!

I fell in love with my husband via the internet and telephone. But it was nerve-wracking, TBH. I questioned whether or not it would translate to real life.

It did.

It takes a certain suspension of beliefs of "normal" courtship, for sure. And personally I wouldn't be able to live in that kind of world for long (we met F2F about five months after first contact online). But after having met, I could take what I knew and run with it then.

Courting a long time and even living together is no guarantee of a successful marriage. Being able to navigate everything life hurls at you over the years is too hard to predict.

All relationships are about a faith in the future and having that one person as a safety net. Nobody's got a crystal ball.

Live and let love.

[TracyTN 237]

I fell in love with my husband via the internet and telephone. But it was nerve-wracking, TBH. I questioned whether or not it would translate to real life.

It did.

As did I. I had been posting on a forum for the rock group Rush for a few months. My (now) hubby had Googled something about Rush's guitarist and ended up on the same forum. He had never even been on a forum before, but started posting there. (Intervention of fates, I'd say!) He amused me, I amused him - I sent him a PM asking him if he had a Yahoo ID, including in that message what he now describes as a 'cute blushing emote' - the rest is history.