KVAR-ENERGY CONTROLER

[-B&T- 1]

Hello VJ people,

I just want to ask if any of you here is familiar or actually has this device installed in your homes .The company claimed that it can lower Electric bill which sounds really good right? I just heard their advertisement through a FM Radio Station where the Announcer also recommends this device and so I check the Company's Website. We planned on purchasing one but also wonder if this is a bogus and we will just be wasting our money.

Any feedbacks are highly appreciated. Thank ya'll.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Their websites says a lot without saying really anything. I'm skeptical.

You might want to read the responses here about KVAR:

Posted by paulusgnome61 (My Page) on Tue, Aug 21, 07 at 2:24

I had not heard of this particular unit, but a visit to their website shows up several of the features common to many 'electrical scam' sites : 1) they make extravagant claims about how it is possible to save many % off your power account, 2) they offer a few tantalising hints as to how their particular brand of magic works, 3)they are very short on specifics as to how their magic machine actually works, 4) they offer an impressive range of apparent endorsements from organisations that sound impressive but which have probably never actually heard of the products on offer : Nasa, EPA, UL and so on.

In almost every case the products either do not work, or if they do, they will almost never produce results anything like as good as what is claimed.

You can only save energy that is being wasted. In this case, the explanation of how the product works is so vague that it is not clear just what mechanism is at work. It could be a power-factor correction device, and if so the power savings would be absolutely tiny - pennies. They mention the current peaks drawn by motors when they start, but this too is a very small amount of energy, and in any case all of the techniques for reducing these peaks only smoothes them out a little, they do not really save any power.

I believe that the products on offer at www.saveenergyllc.com are most probably a scam, or at very least will not deliver anything like the results offered.

Naturally, if the proprietors of this business can provide some detailed explanation of how their product actually works to achieve the results claimed, and if their explanation stacks up, then I will change my opinion.

FWIW, I am an electrical engineer who works in the power industry. I think I can claim to be reasonably knowledgeable about electrical distribution systems and motors.

[NickD 202]

Can't seem to find anybody on the entire internet that is knowledgeable about exactly what's inside that KVAR box. KVAR practically owns the internet with 142,000 entrees, mostly all by KVAR itself.

Only thing I can gather is, an AC capacitor is in the box, maybe two has two would be required for a standard 240 VAC input that has a centertap ground for two 180* out of phase 120 VAC inputs. Also read several sites from guys claiming to be electrical engineers, if these guys are really electrical engineers, I wouldn't trust them to change a light bulb in my home. But KVAR is tossing around terms like Power Factor, reactive, and inductive motors, can only conclude what they are attempting to do is to correct power factor, that is as old as Tesla is himself.

Trying to explain this in simple terms, but not easy, but here goes anyway.

Essentially there are three types of electrical loads in your home, resistive, capacitive reactive, and inductive reactive. In a true resistive circuit the resultant current of the load, say an incandescent light bulb is in phase with the applied voltage. If 100 VAC were applied resulting in a one ampere current (100 ohms of resistance), the power is the product of the voltage and current or 100 watts. Running this bulb for ten hours consumes 1 kilowatt and if you are paying a dime per kilowatt, running this bulb for ten hours will cost you a dime.

In a pure capacitive load with a reactance also of 100 ohms, same 100 VAC applied, a current of 1 ampere would also flow. But the current leads the voltage by 90* and using integral calculus trigonometry, because of this phase difference, the resultant true or resistive power consumed is zero. Take my word for it. Inductive reactance works exactly the same but it's current lags the applied voltage by precisely 90*. In either case, but applying a pure capactive or inductive and drawing that example 1 amp, your electrical power meter should show zero. And running it for ten hours should cost you zero cents, not a dime like the light bulb.

The difference in power measurements is true power from a pure resistive load, apparent power that is the product of RMS voltage and current, and power factor that is the ratio of true power to apparent power. In purely reactive circuits, all of the energy is returned back to the power company, you are not using this energy.

It's for this reason power transformers and AC generators are rated in VA rather than watts, the product of the RMS current and voltage. The phase between voltage and current can vary anywhere between -90 to +90 degrees, examples of lagging current devices would be any motor you have in your home, the largest would be in your AC compressor followed by your refrigerator or freezer. But you also have capacitive loads in your home mostly due to the lastest switch mode power supplies used in TV's and computers that kind of counter the lagging phase shift of your motors.

Would like to see what's in the KVAR box, can only bet it's a cheap bipolar electrolytic capacitor, in industry, large oil filled capacitors are used to correct a low power factor, but these are install directly across the motors. And the reason is not that more energy is consumed or saved, but because the power company has to install transformers with a higher VA rating to compensate. If this KVAR is permanently connected to your circuit breaker box, it would do more damage if the motor it is suppose to correct is turned off as you now have a leading rather than a lagging power factor. And there is no way the KVAR or anyone else for that matter that can determine the precise value of the capacitor required unless precise measurement are made.

As a damn good but paranoid engineer, I will shut down my home and put a pure inductive or capacitive load on my power meter, it damn well better show zero KWH usage or I am screaming. This makes anything KVAR in the claims they have made a pure lie.

What the major problem today is, all this made in China #######, motors that use poor lamination materials and undersized copper, and they don't even varnish the stator windings leading to poor reliability and additional cost to the consumer in major repair bills. A motor is suppose to convert electrical energy into mechanical energy, ones I have tested make far superior space heaters, maybe not bad in the winter months to help heat your home, but double jeopardy in the summer months when you are trying to cool it.

Not willing to spend 400-700 bucks to fine out what's in that box, but if I saw it, could tell you exactly what it is, have thousands of dollars worth of test equipment in my lab.

[-B&T- 1]

Thanks a lot guys for the replies. It's nice to hear from people who has knowledge about this Electrical stuff .Yeah, it sounds too good to be true! Anyway it was featured on FOX10 NEWS and they say it's a good deal. Oh well...

[NickD 202]

According to this site, it works: http://cecpnw.com/products/kvarpc.html

"What is Your Power Factor? Power factor is the percentage of electricity that’s delivered to your business and used effectively, compared to what is wasted. For example, a 1.0 power factor means that all the electricity that’s being delivered to your business is being used effectively for its purpose.

However, most businesses in America today have a .77 power factor or less. This means that 77% of the electricity that is coming thru your meter at your business is being used effectively, the other 23% is being wasted by your inductive load.

With a low power factor, the utility has to deliver more electricity to do the same work. However, the PFCD unit increases that power factor in most cases to .97 or .98, thus increasing the effective use of your electricity and lowering your usage.

How Does the PFCD Unit Work?

The PFCD reduces the amount of power drawn from the utility by storing (in its capacitors) otherwise lost electricity (watts) caused by the inductive motors in your business. (Some examples of inductive motors are Air Conditioning units, refrigerators, freezers, electric motors, pumps, furnace blower motors, fans etc.) The technology applied by the PFCD 3200™ Unit supplies that stored electricity back to your inductive loads, thus causing you to decrease your demand from the utility. If you decrease your demand from the utility, your meter slows down, and you use less electricity. The thought is, you’ve already paid for that electricity, why pay for it and waste it when you can pay for it, store it, and reuse it again. This whole process is called power factor optimization.

Does Power Factor Correction work in any business?

Yes it does, as long as you have a circuit breaker panel with breaker switches, the unit will work on any single-phase or three-phase electric application for businesses."

Plus another 100,000 sites.

This statement, "However, most businesses in America today have a .77 power factor or less. This means that 77% of the electricity that is coming thru your meter at your business is being used effectively, the other 23% is being wasted by your inductive load" Is basically true in terms of power facto, but the rest of it is false in that, that energy is not wasted, but returned to the power company. But I am assuming honesty in KWH meters, they are only to charge you for TRUE POWER, not APPARENT POWER as this statement exists. But perhaps they are now charging you for apparent power, this damn country is getting so corrupt, your meter can be tested for this.

But nevertheless, the above article tells you, you need a circuit breaker box, that is definitely not true, each electrical appliance in your home or business has to be individually tested for power factor and corrected. Some may be corrected by a capacitor that appears to be the only means KVAR is using, where others would have to be corrected with an inductor, exactly the opposite. And if either capacitors or inductors are used, they have to be installed in the electrical appliance itself and only active where that device is turned on.

CFLs have a rather low power factor, but they are rated in true power rather than apparent power. Just measured a 100 watt equivalent, true power is 23 watts, apparent power is 43 VA for a PF of .53, that is poor. But the question remains, what are you paying for, 23 or 43 watts? Would have to test your power meter to do that. Or you can call your power company and have them test it.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Give one a shot. I'm buying one to find out.

[Dan J 277]

I would be skeptical of such of a device.

There are quite a few other things to save power from conservation to choosing energy efficient appliances that should be done first.

[Niels Bohr 72]

You won't know unless you try. Just like the wireless recharging. Most people are comfortable believing that using wires is the only way to recharge, whereas, stuff can also be recharged wirelessly.

Einstein was a skeptic in quantum theory. Didn't believe it one bit.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Niels Bohr

[NickD 202]

I would be skeptical of such of a device.

There are quite a few other things to save power from conservation to choosing energy efficient appliances that should be done first.

If Niels does buy one, take a photo of what's in the box, in photos I have seen, the wiring seems like light for that application. Have to say at least one thing positive about Carter, he did refresh the FTC and a whole bunch of this ####### did get off the market again, but all came back again with Reagan. Hell with a cow magnet on my fuel line, propellers under my carburetor, a special air cleaner, and splitfire plug, I can get 200 mpg with my car.

Can also buy pills that will make me a superman, make my thingy ten foot long, and cure every disease known to mankind. If I have problems with a ten buck toaster, all I have to do is to hire an attorney for 10,000 bucks to settle it. Infomercials are well beyond science fiction as our most of our TV ads. Everybody for themselves is the rule of the game.

DOE is worthless with energy savings, never take in account the initial cost of the product and do not even know how to conduct energy tests, so hire engineers that can't get a job anywhere else.

And exactly what is peak to peak power in audio equipment and peak HP in motors? See now, the single most important specification on motors, temperature rise under full load is missing. Prefer most of my buying to be locally so at least I have the opportunity to kill the person that is trying to screw me, can spend days with an 800 number and get nowhere. Give me a phillips long enough, and I will screw the world is the motto for today.

No doubt that low PF is raising our electric rates, DOE could stop this but making that a mandatory specification, CFLs along with mercury would be the first to go, but they are pushing that. But the DOE doesn't even know about PF or other means of measurement, just like those idiots they put in charge of the FCC, FAA, and can also toss in the USCIS that can't even write a form in English.

But they sure know how to charge taxes. NASA hasn't done anything either, give credit to the lowest bidders for that.

[catknit 144]

If I had the money to burn, I'd give it a shot too.

I worked on a product line that did something similar using the same basic theory - certain items need more juice to start up BUT once the are up and running, that level of energy is no longer needed. The product I was involved with used a variety of software and hardware at the panel going to end use products to readjust the power going to the item - if 100% power was needed to start up the power using thingie but only 89% power was needed to keep it running, this product shifted the power output at the panel to 89%.

Our clients realized some decent savings but this was very specific to a certain type of item. For the record, we had UL markings as well as Energy Star and a couple other industry standards - we had to prove what we were claiming.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hello VJ people,

I just want to ask if any of you here is familiar or actually has this device installed in your homes .The company claimed that it can lower Electric bill which sounds really good right? I just heard their advertisement through a FM Radio Station where the Announcer also recommends this device and so I check the Company's Website. We planned on purchasing one but also wonder if this is a bogus and we will just be wasting our money.

Any feedbacks are highly appreciated. Thank ya'll.

Controls like this have been used for years in commerical applications where customers are chrged "demand" rates and their "rate" is set by their "peak demand" This is because utilities must build generating capacity for the PEAK demand even though usually they majority of the facility is unused...kind of like a 4 lane highway at 3 am, and you wonder why they made the road so big!

Residential customers are not charged for peak usage, usually. Can vary by utility. At any rate, no one can make this claim with studying your energy usage. When I was single, I rarely had more than one light bulb on in my house at atime and no air conditioning (hey, its Vermont, who needs AC?) So how, exactly do you cut my utility bill?

Typically these devices act as a limiter, when your usage approached a certain level, this controller begins to turn off equipemnt you designate as non-essential, at least for periods of time and then sequences equipment as you program them. It is not a simple, easy or cheap device and usually out of rabge for a homeowner. Some utility companies offer these and give you a lower rate if you participate but THEY decide what they will turn off.

The only way a homeowner can reduce electric bills, usually, is to turn something OFF. (commerical users also, but they can save MORE by not exceeding a certian momentary demand)There isn no magic bullet, you are charged for KiloWatts. (The usage of 1000 watts) Watts are calculated by Volts times Amps (sometimes called VA or KVA) and there is nothing to it, no way to change the calculations (it is physics, pure and simple). Turning things OFF saves money, anything else is a scam.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You won't know unless you try. Just like the wireless recharging. Most people are comfortable believing that using wires is the only way to recharge, whereas, stuff can also be recharged wirelessly.

Einstein was a skeptic in quantum theory. Didn't believe it one bit.

I have done energy feasibilty studies since the early 1980s. You most certainly CAN know before trying. I have never met a commercial client that would even consider anything without a study and I am sure I would not.

Let's say this...if your monthly electric bill is $95, or thereabouts, you CANNOT save more than that. Period. Go from there. An effective device will not be cheap, it can't be. There is simply too much involved in the way of processing. The processor alone is going to rival a laptop computer in capacity and price, probably a high end laptop. Add to that the hardware needed. On an exisitng system, hardware will cost in the neighborhood of $100 per point, maybe more ("point" being a controlled device) and this is in addition to the processor/controller.

Then you have to consider how much of this you can do yourself with conscientious use, some simple timers for some devices, etc. I would get an exact estimate. What will this thing do for you, how, and what is the cost up front?

[Niels Bohr 72]

You won't know unless you try. Just like the wireless recharging. Most people are comfortable believing that using wires is the only way to recharge, whereas, stuff can also be recharged wirelessly.

Einstein was a skeptic in quantum theory. Didn't believe it one bit.

I have done energy feasibilty studies since the early 1980s. You most certainly CAN know before trying. I have never met a commercial client that would even consider anything without a study and I am sure I would not.

Let's say this...if your monthly electric bill is $95, or thereabouts, you CANNOT save more than that. Period. Go from there. An effective device will not be cheap, it can't be. There is simply too much involved in the way of processing. The processor alone is going to rival a laptop computer in capacity and price, probably a high end laptop. Add to that the hardware needed. On an exisitng system, hardware will cost in the neighborhood of $100 per point, maybe more ("point" being a controlled device) and this is in addition to the processor/controller.

Then you have to consider how much of this you can do yourself with conscientious use, some simple timers for some devices, etc. I would get an exact estimate. What will this thing do for you, how, and what is the cost up front?

The group that does the study, did they actually ran the experiment. And, if they did they probably used the device to find out. It's exactly what I will do. Just like anything, inventions are usually discovered by accidents. Just like the guy who accidentally discovered plastic when he playing with TAR to find a cure of cancer or something along the lines.

Engineers are optimistic, and will open their doors to anything that sounds feasible. That is what we do. Heck, we can test this thing and find out. Doesn't exactly cost a million dollars. Even NASA and the Military scrapped million dollars worth of projects.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Niels Bohr

[NickD 202]

Maybe if I had more patience, could find a photo of what's in the box or at least a circuit or a description of it.

Not a very big box, here is shown wired into a circuit breaker box.

Recall being contacted by NASA for a power factor controller, did have a US patent and NASA wanted a license to manufacturer. They gave me a prototype, still have it. Idea is an AC induction motor under no load has practically a zero power factor that is wasting energy. But as you apply a mechanical load to the motor, the PF will increase, never to unity, but does increase. One of their claims was to save energy with a refrigerator. But the thing with a refrigerator compressor motor, it's always operated at a near maximum load.

What their trick was, by adding a Triac in series with a load, you find those things in any light dimmer, and comparing the phase of the current with the voltage, if the phase reached a preset point, would be exactly like dimming your light with that knob to reduce the effective RMS voltage by delayed triggering. Well this thing was set to premature, reduced the voltage to the compressor motor, and when you do that, it's speed drops as so does the BEMF. This actually increased the power consumption of the compressor motor. By monitoring the temperature, the compressor motor temperature was increasing that would drastically shorten it's life. It didn't work. Now this is NASA, those that did invest in the tooling lost a lot of money and with a product they couldn't give away. So, yes I am skeptical, wasn't born that way, but made that way.

See KVAR also states their capacitor can handle startup surges. Now we know this is pure BS, because a capacitor connected across the line is contantly charging and discharging with AC, would help with DC, but only to average the surge, would not save a drop of energy. Met a lot of so called graduate engineers that don't even know the difference between surge factor and power factor, could only ask if they got their degree out of a Cracker Jack box.

Would somebody please show me a schematic of what's in the box?

[catknit 144]

Triac! Now that's a freaking technical term flashback - the product I worked with was for lighting panels actually.

Not to sound completely, well, stupid - in super simple layman's terms why wouldn't the same hold true for say a compressor if everything was timed/tracked correctly?