CAN I GET AN AMEN!

[BishopMnA 0]

I am interested in the idea of belief - why humans evolved belief systems, how humans became the central focus in christianity and muslim relgion and the rest of the natural world is dismissed and belittled (not always but often). The social structures that a belief system create are very intersting as well, and to understand them would I suspect make one better able to create social structures when there are a significant portion of agnostics/non believers in the population. Human nature is fascinating.

well, I buggered that up good and proper didn't I?

No, you did not ####### this up one iota. It makes perfect sense...a natural curiosity is very valuable.

Peace indeed. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this matter and since you asked, that's mine. I am sure Hal will be right along to explain why in fact what I just wrote is wrong, flawed and still allows for the existence of 'g'

Of course it's wrong and flawed because - you guessed it - "God makes everything possible".

Who needs a rational or scientific explanation when you have God to fall back on?

Yes...you are correct. God does make all things possible. We agree

[Peikko 1,575]

You missed the edit - previously I had inserted my new point into the previous quotation - not very intelligible.

[BishopMnA 0]

You missed the edit - previously I had inserted my new point into the previous quotation - not very intelligible.

[Nagishkaw 510]

Romans 1:21-23 :

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

[NickD 202]

I have no problem with people praying, if that's what they want to do and as long as there is no requirement for others to do so who do not wish to participate. I have a huge problem with people making up ####### about what those who don't want religious indoctrination in public schools do want to see as part of the curriculum, particularly when with totally disingenuous sleight of hand, thoroughly good ideas like teaching sex education and the proper use of condoms is transformed into sexual promiscuity and anything goes clap trap.

However, it makes the narrow minded feel good, I know because they do like to feel they are victims of librul evil doing.

Son requested we say a pray before meals when baby sitting our granddaughter, memorized the prayer, and don't have a problem with that. Most important thing is to keep peace in the family. Isn't peace is what all this is about?

Peace be with you.

More concerned about my other kids that won't participate since this one son changed religion, that is causing the most severe problems. And have to agree, that is being narrow minded. In this country we are suppose to have freedom with religion, but do feel, pushing one's beliefs on others is wrong.

[GabiandVi 34]

I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it "an alternate life style," and if someone is offended, that's OK.

I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex.." If someone is offended, that's OK.

I can even use this public facility to present the merits of killing an unborn baby as a "viable! means of birth control." If someone is offended, no problem...

I can designate a school day as "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess "Mother Earth" and call it "ecology..."

Homosexuality is not a sexual perversion,nor is it an alternate lifestyle. And no one in public life is asked to "approve" of it - only to ensure that homosexuals are not discriminated against in their institutions. The connotations in the first sentence above are clearly indicative of homophobia and intolerance.

Dispensing condoms does not "condone sexual promiscuity". A coherent safe-sex message should consist of making condoms available AND ALSO urging young people in schools to be responsible in their sex lives, to strongly consider abstinence or monogamy. No one in a position of responsible authority should be condoning "promiscuity". Again - only a person with a biased agenda would twist and contort his phrasing in this way.

"Killing an unborn baby" is apparently intended as a euphemism for abortion. [/color] An embryo or zygote at less than 10 weeks gestation is not a "baby". [/b]This is a charged and emotional subject, with passionate feelings by many in our society. Using charged and emotionally evocative phrasing has only one purpose in mind: to divide people and to anger them, not to find common ground. To the writer of such words, an educator - I say shame on you.

I'd be curious to see specific citations to "religious worship" and goddess terminology in the context of Earth Day. How bogus.

I agree with just about everything you have said. However, I don't see what makes your opinion about the validity of life before 10 weeks gestation better or more worthy than the opinion of others. I would think that anyone with a brain and the ability to use logic could understand why people who believe life begins at conception (a conviction that makes logical sense, in fact, more sense than a conviction that life begins at hour x but does not exist at hour x-1second,) would believe it is wrong to end that life. I would think that anyone who wants to respect the beliefs, choices, and convictions of others would want to respect that sincere conviction as well rather than treat it with contempt.

Also, as for earth day goddess terminology, it is there. I've seen it many times. I'm not offended by it. I'd never take the time to express disapproval because I don't disapprove of it, but I've been in the audience, and, in fact, on the earth day committee when it has been raised (albeit not in a public school in the US but that's because the schools I've worked at in the US have a population that don't have the luxury of giving a ###### about the environment and these sorts of celebrations/assemblies are avoided because they are apt to become riotous.)

I'd also like to say that anyone who thinks the reason for teenage pregnancy and spread of STDs is because they don't know how to use or where to get their hands on free condoms is NAIVE or burying their heads in the sand. They have NO CLUE what goes on with teenagers today.

And finally, I would say there is a definite over-sensitivity to anything that might be construed as being promotion of Christianity or even Christian values (even if they are also the values of other religions and non-religious codes) in public schools. Not so with other religions. I think this is a natural result of Christians being in the majority, but that doesn't mean we can't point it out as wrong and try to be a little more open-minded about Christianity.

Edited October 3, 2009 by GabiandVi

[KarenCee 3]

I believe that, considering our day and time, that teaching world religions (all of them) as a part of the Social Sciences curricula would be fantastic! Teaching that class would be my 'dream job'...

I know it would be, and you would be awesome at it. And in all honesty, i am convinced that this would be the way of fostering tolerance... instead of pizza and polka multicultural #######.

I actually loved my World Religions class a few months back. Made an A in that class too and decided to keep the book rather than sell it.

Religions taught purely as a Social Science would be awesome. However, the Fundies won't like that. They only want THEIR agenda taught, their belief system, their indoctrination. So you see, a class of this magnitude would never fly. They would complain, press lawsuits (now THAT'S definitely a Christian thing to do, eh?), and make such a ruckus that the curricula would be pulled almost immediately.

[Danno 1,228]

It seems to me that condoms are placed in schools because humans are fallible - not because humans are naturally promiscuous. Actually, are condoms put in schools anyway? I presume this would be high school?

And yet we don't let children enjoy "safe-drinking Rooms" nor the exchange of safe needles?

I don't know of one School that permits drag racing in a controlled safe way, imagine the lives saved?

I'm just sayin

[Danno 1,228]

I think the big problem we have here is, there are two main groups... one is having trouble excepting we are now in a "Post Christian" nation, the other lives in the denial that we ever WERE a "Christian Nation."

For me it's much easier to understand the side that -just doesn't want to let go- of

of that foundation which made this country special and great.

The other side is a little more difficult to understand... as they pretend to be the "broad minded" of the two. Clearly their understanding of American history is sadly limited.... in fact, I wonder how many of them have even Visited our nations Capital where the evidence of Gods importance is literally at every turn.

Not to dwell to strongly on the point but as an example, lets see if anyone can name even one major monument or sight which does not is some way make reference to GOD.

So here we are.... one side having trouble facing the music, the other clinging to the silly notion that a voluntary public prayer somehow "establishes a State religion".

Just for grins and giggles, here is a list of STATE PREAMBLES someone sent me, see if you can find yours.

Do You Know The Preamble For Your State?

Alabama 1901, Preamble

We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution..

Alaska 1956, Preamble

We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.

Arizona 1911, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble

We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...

Colorado 1876, Preamble

We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe...

Connecticut 1818, Preamble

The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.

Delaware 1897, Preamble

Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida 1885, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble

We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble

We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance ... Establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almigh ty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.

Illinois 1870, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil , political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble

We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble

We, the People of the St ate of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings, establish this Constitution.

Kansas 1859, Preamble

We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble

We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble

We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity .. And imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble

We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble

We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction.

Michigan 1908, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:

Mississippi 1890, Preamble

We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble

We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness. Establish this Constitution...

Montana 1889, Preamble

We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution...

Nebraska 1875, Preamble

We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom . Establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble

We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, establish this Constitution...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I Art. I Sec. V

Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble

We the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

New Mexico 1911, Preamble

We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty..

New York 1846, Preamble

We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble

We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those...

North Dakota 1889, Preamble

We the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble

We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common welfare, do establish this Constitution.

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble

Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty, establish this...

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I Section 2

All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble

We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance...

Rho de Island 1842, Preamble

We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing...

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble

We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble

We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties...

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI III

That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the d ictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble

We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble

Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.

Vermont 1777, Preamble

Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man.

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI

Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other...

Washington 1889, Preamble

We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution.

West Virginia 1872, Preamble

Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God...

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble

We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility...

Wyoming 1890, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties, establish this Constitution...

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that the ACLU and out-of-control federal courts are wrong!

(Please note that at no time is anyone told that they MUST worship God.)

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." - William Penn

[mawilson 2,133]

Grow a brain, dude.

[Mark&Steph 0]

Accepting.

[Heracles 417]

The principal is spot on regarding the double standards. We have reached a point where schools basically promote neanderthal ######, yet are forced to deny spirituality. What's happening here is that the minority are able to force their views on others; as such, only those who believe in the freedom not to practice are being catered for.

Some here say why not go to religious oriented schools. To the contrary, why don't atheist go to their own school? After all, the constitution does not favor one over the other. The constitution clearly discusses freedom to practice or freedom not to practice. In fact, I have gone over the constitution again and again but am yet to find separation of church and state, anywhere.

I don't believe or agree with forcing my views or others views down people's throats, however, a school where the majority of students believe in something should not be forced to ignore these beliefs, just because a minority of students may be offended. That's not what tolerance and diversity is all about. That is why so many people in this country refuse to acknowledge, accept or respect other people's beliefs. We celebrated a range of holidays in our public schools in Aus. It also helped us understand other beliefs and cultures, including being atheist.

Religion = choice

atheist = choice

As such, one should never override, have precedence or seniority over the other. Clearly this is not the case in the states.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Booyah!

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

agreed, by.

[rebeccajo 14]

It seems to me that condoms are placed in schools because humans are fallible - not because humans are naturally promiscuous. Actually, are condoms put in schools anyway? I presume this would be high school?

And yet we don't let children enjoy "safe-drinking Rooms" nor the exchange of safe needles?

I don't know of one School that permits drag racing in a controlled safe way, imagine the lives saved?

I'm just sayin

That's just stupid. Sex is natural and sexually mature (physiologically) people are gonna have sex. Drawing an analogy between kids having sex and using drugs or dragracing is ...........well I guess it's just another Danno-ism.

[Scott & Lai 12]

Grow a brain, dude.

Brilliant, well argued, eminently logical response