Europe or US to meet? Visa questions.

[visaveteran 1]

Not shifting motivations...you're shifting conversations. The current one is of your making...you provided data that the Philappines and Thailand populations were large enough to compare to Russia. I argued back that you need to count the entire FSU. You then began to make weak points that each country is so unique as to not allow for combining the FSU. I countered that.

Is this all coming back to you?

lol, I guess so. If this all boils down to "uh-huh," "nuh-uh" then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Uh-huh.

[visaveteran 1]

I could make a similar argument that a Russia woman from Moscow is different than one from Siberia and speaks Russian differently also.

Sure. Think about how a woman from New York might have different motivations, and you can get a sense of how different a woman from Kyiv might be from a woman in Krakow or Kastana or Moscow. You can't link the motivations of all FSU women together, because every FSU country is different. Find a person under 20 years old in Kazakhstan, for instance, and there's a really good chance she doesn't speak Russian, because Russian is an "elective" language in that country now. English and German are much more enticing to a lot of Kazakhs nowadays as ties to Europe start to grow stronger, and ties to Russia start to fade.

I think, again, the key issue is how an American man reacts to a Russian woman from various areas.

How an American man reacts to a Russian (or any other) woman has zero to do with her motivations for deciding to move abroad.

My common sense view is that it's about the individual person and not where they reside or their dialect.

This seems contrary to every argument you've made to this point. As I understand it, you believe that the majority of women in FSU countries (or certainly those on international dating sites) are trying to escape their miserable lives by marrying a Westerner.

But anyway, my anecdote about dialect and accent is just the tip of a much larger issue. The point is that even though a woman grew up in a Russian community in a former Soviet republic, with Russian parents and Russians all around her, surrounded by Russian culture, she still can't even come close to passing as Russian. And it's not just her accent. It's her mannerisms, the way she thinks, the way she cooks, even her outlook on life. So given all that, think about how different actual Ukrainians must be to Russians.

You just can't lump all FSU women together like that. K1 hit it on the nail perfectly...like comparing British and Hong Kong citizens. Or if you want to make it a little closer, like comparing the Irish to the English.

From following this visa site and others, I see mostly marriages or K-1s coming from Russia and the Ukraine as far as the FSU is concerned. Perhaps a few from Belarus which is currently very pro Russia. The histories of these neighbors are intertwined and obviously Russia cares greatly who runs the Ukraine and what's going on there and vice versus. Some areas of the Ukraine are pro Russia and some are anti-Russia. Russian is spoken by 29% of the country, mostly in the major cities. The main language in Kyiv is Russian.

If an American man visits a Russian woman living in the Ukraine, he won't understand she may be a bit different than a Russian woman living in Moscow unless he's also met and dated someone from Moscow and sees a difference (if any exists). So who cares about her dialect, style of cooking or what her favorite drink is? She's a Russian woman looking for a husband...be it American or otherwise. She will look Russian, have Russian blood in her veins and probably have visited back to Russia. Her parents may still live in Russia. She may have an ex husband from Russia. She may be on the identical international dating web site as other women living in Russia. She may well have a Russian passport.

The American man will care less what her country of residence is except around getting her visa. Her motivation was to get married which is the same motivation as the Russian woman living in Moscow. She likely does not look any different than a Slavic woman living in Russia. There is a good chance she is Orthodox or atheist much the same as the women living in Russia. She probably likes Vodka and brandy. She my wear clothes made in Russia. There likely won't be any drastic difference in her and any other Russian women in other parts of the world.

PM Putin considers Russians living outside Russia as true Russians. In fact, he started a program to attract those Russians back to Mother Russia. If Putin is OK with them being Russians, so am I.

It is my judgment that many FSU countries are not assimilating Russians but, rather, are persecuting and penalizing them for being Russian.

As far as a true Ukrainian woman being different than a Russian woman, I can't say...but I doubt the differences will be so drastic or obvious as to be keenly understood by the average Joe American who may visit her. They look the same in a basic sense and speak a language the man probably does not understand, be it Russian or Ukrainian. The food may be different but either way, not your typical American food. So I'm not seeing a dramatic difference that will jump up in the face of the American man. Differences would probably be described as subtle or invisible to the untrained eye.

So, Mox, who gives a rat's ####?

We all know that Russian women are named Natasha or Olga, scheming to get a green card, and drop dead gorgeous until the age of 35 when they shrivel into hunchbacks with hooked noses and a shawl that is attached to their chins. And Americans are all fat, proud, and monolingual.

Or, if the sarcasm was too deep for you, why do you feel the need to prove that all FSU women are the same? Even if Ukraine and Russia and Belarus and wherever else all have the same culture, the people in those countries are diverse, unique, and interesting. I think you need to spend some more time in Russia if for no other reason than to realize that people in other countries are actually people, too, and not the borg.

The sociological phenomena of FSU women marrying western men in large numbers is the issue here, not what kind of bread they bake or music they listen to. I judge that Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus have more in common than otherwise, especially looking at the last 90 years.

[eekee 182]

I'm actually going to agree with visaveteran instead of Mox on this one.

[SMR 368]

I could make a similar argument that a Russia woman from Moscow is different than one from Siberia and speaks Russian differently also.

Sure. Think about how a woman from New York might have different motivations, and you can get a sense of how different a woman from Kyiv might be from a woman in Krakow or Kastana or Moscow. You can't link the motivations of all FSU women together, because every FSU country is different. Find a person under 20 years old in Kazakhstan, for instance, and there's a really good chance she doesn't speak Russian, because Russian is an "elective" language in that country now. English and German are much more enticing to a lot of Kazakhs nowadays as ties to Europe start to grow stronger, and ties to Russia start to fade.

I think, again, the key issue is how an American man reacts to a Russian woman from various areas.

How an American man reacts to a Russian (or any other) woman has zero to do with her motivations for deciding to move abroad.

My common sense view is that it's about the individual person and not where they reside or their dialect.

This seems contrary to every argument you've made to this point. As I understand it, you believe that the majority of women in FSU countries (or certainly those on international dating sites) are trying to escape their miserable lives by marrying a Westerner.

But anyway, my anecdote about dialect and accent is just the tip of a much larger issue. The point is that even though a woman grew up in a Russian community in a former Soviet republic, with Russian parents and Russians all around her, surrounded by Russian culture, she still can't even come close to passing as Russian. And it's not just her accent. It's her mannerisms, the way she thinks, the way she cooks, even her outlook on life. So given all that, think about how different actual Ukrainians must be to Russians.

You just can't lump all FSU women together like that. K1 hit it on the nail perfectly...like comparing British and Hong Kong citizens. Or if you want to make it a little closer, like comparing the Irish to the English.

From following this visa site and others, I see mostly marriages or K-1s coming from Russia and the Ukraine as far as the FSU is concerned. Perhaps a few from Belarus which is currently very pro Russia. The histories of these neighbors are intertwined and obviously Russia cares greatly who runs the Ukraine and what's going on there and vice versus. Some areas of the Ukraine are pro Russia and some are anti-Russia. Russian is spoken by 29% of the country, mostly in the major cities. The main language in Kyiv is Russian.

If an American man visits a Russian woman living in the Ukraine, he won't understand she may be a bit different than a Russian woman living in Moscow unless he's also met and dated someone from Moscow and sees a difference (if any exists). So who cares about her dialect, style of cooking or what her favorite drink is? She's a Russian woman looking for a husband...be it American or otherwise. She will look Russian, have Russian blood in her veins and probably have visited back to Russia. Her parents may still live in Russia. She may have an ex husband from Russia. She may be on the identical international dating web site as other women living in Russia. She may well have a Russian passport.

The American man will care less what her country of residence is except around getting her visa. Her motivation was to get married which is the same motivation as the Russian woman living in Moscow. She likely does not look any different than a Slavic woman living in Russia. There is a good chance she is Orthodox or atheist much the same as the women living in Russia. She probably likes Vodka and brandy. She my wear clothes made in Russia. There likely won't be any drastic difference in her and any other Russian women in other parts of the world.

PM Putin considers Russians living outside Russia as true Russians. In fact, he started a program to attract those Russians back to Mother Russia. If Putin is OK with them being Russians, so am I.

It is my judgment that many FSU countries are not assimilating Russians but, rather, are persecuting and penalizing them for being Russian.

As far as a true Ukrainian woman being different than a Russian woman, I can't say...but I doubt the differences will be so drastic or obvious as to be keenly understood by the average Joe American who may visit her. They look the same in a basic sense and speak a language the man probably does not understand, be it Russian or Ukrainian. The food may be different but either way, not your typical American food. So I'm not seeing a dramatic difference that will jump up in the face of the American man. Differences would probably be described as subtle or invisible to the untrained eye.

So, Mox, who gives a rat's ####?

We all know that Russian women are named Natasha or Olga, scheming to get a green card, and drop dead gorgeous until the age of 35 when they shrivel into hunchbacks with hooked noses and a shawl that is attached to their chins. And Americans are all fat, proud, and monolingual.

Or, if the sarcasm was too deep for you, why do you feel the need to prove that all FSU women are the same? Even if Ukraine and Russia and Belarus and wherever else all have the same culture, the people in those countries are diverse, unique, and interesting. I think you need to spend some more time in Russia if for no other reason than to realize that people in other countries are actually people, too, and not the borg.

The sociological phenomena of FSU women marrying western men in large numbers is the issue here, not what kind of bread they bake or music they listen to. I judge that Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus have more in common than otherwise, especially looking at the last 90 years.

If you want to talk about why FSU women are marrying foreigners, it's more demographic and economic than cultural. That is, a lot of FSU women who marry foreigners would have married a FSU man if a quality one had been available. In any culture where eligible, successful members of one gender greatly outnumber the other, you are going to either see polygamy (if it's culturally acceptable) or people looking for partners in other places.

All I'm trying to say is that I don't see this great rift between FSU people and American people. I don't think you need to group people, so it doesn't matter whether Ukrainians and Russians go together or not. Once you sit down and talk to people in their own language, you realize that although people are all different, there isn't really a huge defining difference in different cultures.

I don't want to offend any of the couples that are USC woman and FSU man. I'm making a general argument about the situation.

[mox 298]

I'm actually going to agree with visaveteran instead of Mox on this one.

Sorry ekee, we can't be friends anymore.

[BluesTraveler 0]

Sorry ekee, we can't be friends anymore.

You are assuming ekee was your friend.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

From Yestrday's Moscow Times:

Expat Wedding No Longer a Russian Dream

01 October 2009

By Natalya Krainova

For years, the dream of many young Russian women seemed to be to marry a European or American man and move abroad. Not anymore.

Women have grown more sophisticated as they travel the world and pore over Western women’s magazines like Cosmopolitan, sociologists say. In fact, one new poll indicates that only 9 percent of single women want to marry a foreigner nowadays, compared to 46 percent just four years ago.

“The Russian woman has become more emancipated,” said Olga Makhovskaya, a psychologist and author of the book, “The Seduction of Immigration, or To the Women Flying Off to Paris.”

Makhovskaya said women’s values have changed remarkably in the 18 years since the Soviet collapse. The main “prize” in life for a Soviet woman was marriage, but the prize for the modern Russian woman is a good career, she said.

Women interviewed in the recent survey gave a number of reasons for their reluctance to marry a foreigner, including a different mentality, culture, language, laws and concerns about the future of common children in case of a divorce.

The online survey of 1,800 women aged 18 and older was conducted by Superjob.ru, a leading job recruitment web site. It put the margin of error at 2 percentage points. Superjob.ru conducted a similar poll of 2,100 women in 2005.

Sociologist Vladimir Mukomel, head of the Center for Ethnopolitical and Religious Studies, said the online surveys were not scientific, but the trend that they showed is indirectly confirmed by some official figures.

According to official data, 60,000 to 100,000 people moved to live abroad every year in the early 1990s, while the number has dropped to the thousands in recent years, Mukomel told The Moscow Times.

Mukomel and Makhovskaya, the psychologist, said they were unaware of any statistics on how many Russian women had married Europeans or Americans in the 1990s.

A request for comment to the Justice Ministry department responsible for keeping records of marriages nationwide was not immediately answered.

Mukomel suggested that Russian women’s interest in foreign husbands has decreased because they have increasingly traveled abroad since the Soviet collapse and become better acquainted with other ways of life. “Russia has become more open,” he said.

Makhovskaya, who has appeared on several Russian television talk shows to discuss international marriages, said one of the reasons for the change in attitudes toward marriage is the boom in the production of glossy women’s magazines after the collapse of the Soviet Union. (Independent Media Sanoma Magazines, the parent company of The Moscow Times, is a leading publisher of those magazines, including Cosmopolitan.)

The media have published stories about international marriages ending in disaster in recent years, creating the impression that the unions are “a trap that you won’t be able to get out of,” Makhovskaya said.

Part of this concern is linked to uncertainty about the future of common children in case of a divorce, she said.

In addition, “anti-Western moods” cultivated by official political propaganda contribute to Russian women’s decline in interest in foreign men, Makhovskaya said.

Many foreign marriages involve women from Russia’s regions rather than the wealthier cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg, matchmaking agencies said.

In Moscow, city statistics for marriages involving foreign nationals show little sign of a trend, said Yevgenia Smirnova, spokeswoman for the Moscow marriage registry office.

The number of marriages involving foreigners that her office registered was 9,304 in 2005, 8,861 in 2006, 12,633 in 2007, 11,803 in 2008, and 8,248 in the first eight months of 2009, Smirnova said. The figures include marriages where one partner is Russian and the other foreign and where both are foreign, she said.

No separate statistics on marriages between Russian and foreign nationals are available, Smirnova said.

But the head of a Moscow-based dating agency said he has seen no drop in demand for foreign husbands since opening in 1997. “The number of women who want to marry a foreigner hasn’t become any fewer,” said Andrei Sokolov, head of the Semeiny Uyut, or Family Comfort, dating agency.

Sokolov said his female Russian clients were looking to find a man who would improve their living conditions and wouldn’t abuse alcohol.

Sokolov also stressed the demographic fact that there are more women than men in Russia and a woman living in a small village finds it next to impossible to meet a husband who would support her and not abuse alcohol.

There are 1,160 women for every 1,000 men in Russia, according to the latest figures available from the Federal Statistics Service.

Alcoholism is a common problem in rural areas.

Two Russian women interviewed for this report — one of whom has been married to a Frenchman for several years and another who was preparing to marry an Australian — said they believed that foreign men were more polite and caring about their families, especially more attentive to their children, than Russian men.

“Foreign men have more responsibility for the family, especially for the children and wives,” said the married woman, a 38-year-old former Muscovite who married the Frenchman five years ago and has lived with him in France since. She spoke on condition of anonymity, saying she did not want to draw attention to her marriage.

She said her French husband had become friends with her 16-year-old son, helping him with his homework and taking him and his friends out to the movies, while the boy’s biological Russian father saw his responsibility only in terms of “sometimes” providing money for the boy’s needs when they lived together.

Zhanna, a 41-year-old resident of the Moscow region town of Balashikha, met her Australian fiance through the Semeiny Uyut dating agency, and she praised her future husband for his attentiveness to both her mother and her 22-year-old son.

“Russian men don’t respect their mothers and often abandon their children,” Zhanna said.

Zhanna also said Russian men drank more alcohol and became “unbridled” when they drank, while her Australian fiance behaved decently even after he drank.

[SMR 368]

From Yestrday's Moscow Times:

Makhovskaya said women’s values have changed remarkably in the 18 years since the Soviet collapse. The main “prize” in life for a Soviet woman was marriage, but the prize for the modern Russian woman is a good career, she said.

Women interviewed in the recent survey gave a number of reasons for their reluctance to marry a foreigner, including a different mentality, culture, language, laws and concerns about the future of common children in case of a divorce.

The online survey of 1,800 women aged 18 and older was conducted by Superjob.ru, a leading job recruitment web site. It put the margin of error at 2 percentage points. Superjob.ru conducted a similar poll of 2,100 women in 2005.

I think a lot of this is true because of improving conditions in FSU countries. But read this again. An online job recruitment site did an online poll and found that women were looking for jobs. Hmm, I wonder why they were at a job recruitment site.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

From Yestrday's Moscow Times:

Makhovskaya said women’s values have changed remarkably in the 18 years since the Soviet collapse. The main “prize” in life for a Soviet woman was marriage, but the prize for the modern Russian woman is a good career, she said.

Women interviewed in the recent survey gave a number of reasons for their reluctance to marry a foreigner, including a different mentality, culture, language, laws and concerns about the future of common children in case of a divorce.

The online survey of 1,800 women aged 18 and older was conducted by Superjob.ru, a leading job recruitment web site. It put the margin of error at 2 percentage points. Superjob.ru conducted a similar poll of 2,100 women in 2005.

I think a lot of this is true because of improving conditions in FSU countries. But read this again. An online job recruitment site did an online poll and found that women were looking for jobs. Hmm, I wonder why they were at a job recruitment site.

uhhhhh..... no... the Superjob.ru survey (which they admit is not particularly scientific) mentions a number of reasons why women say they weren't interested in a foreign marriage, but I actually found it a little interesting that jobs WASN'T mentioned by the survey. The quote about careers comes from a psycologist and author who has written a book about Russian women and immigration.

[1HappyGuy 45]

There are way to many unscientific surveys be touted as evidence of how people feel. Our own TV stations are just as guilty as this job site. Do you really expect women looking for jobs to answer that they would rather find a foreign husband than a good job? That's like saying, "Take my name off the list".

It is interesting how the article is put together with the job site saying less women are looking because of various reasons but the marriage web sites quote statistics of a growning number getting married to foreigners. Are we to understand that in 4 short years the percentage of women looking for desirable husbands outside of Russia has dropped from 46% to 9% due to greatly improved economic conditions.

Perhaps if the job site had paid for an unbiased poll asking a number of questions to derive real life opinions of young single women, we could believe the statistics then.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

Are we to understand that in 4 short years the percentage of women looking for desirable husbands outside of Russia has dropped from 46% to 9% due to greatly improved economic conditions.

You make some excellent points. These particular numbers are probably based not just on "improved economic conditions" but on the factors that have gone along with that --- ability to travel outside Russia and see other countries, increased access to Western media, etc.

But I suspect that BIGGEST factor in such a quick drop has been the economic "crisis" that has hit the entire world (but especially the problems experienced in the U.S.) during the past year. IF economic factors were the main motivation for wanting to get out of Russia, what's the incentive now to leave Russia and move to a place where you're going to see the same level of joblessness and economic uncertainty no matter where you go?.

[visaveteran 1]

Are we to understand that in 4 short years the percentage of women looking for desirable husbands outside of Russia has dropped from 46% to 9% due to greatly improved economic conditions.

You make some excellent points. These particular numbers are probably based not just on "improved economic conditions" but on the factors that have gone along with that --- ability to travel outside Russia and see other countries, increased access to Western media, etc.

But I suspect that BIGGEST factor in such a quick drop has been the economic "crisis" that has hit the entire world (but especially the problems experienced in the U.S.) during the past year. IF economic factors were the main motivation for wanting to get out of Russia, what's the incentive now to leave Russia and move to a place where you're going to see the same level of joblessness and economic uncertainty no matter where you go?.

My wife tells me there are programs on Russian TV showing the horrors of Russian women marrying men outside of Russia. Clearly the propaganda machine is busy putting out distorted information typical of a country fearful of loosing more and more citizens to migration to other countries. Russia has considered making laws to restrict women from leaving Russia.

Any data coming from Russian sources should always be taken with a large grain of salt.

[mox 298]

Russia has considered making laws to restrict women from leaving Russia.

No. One guy, Nikolay Kuryanovich, wanted to make laws punishing (not prohibiting) Russian women who marry foreigners. He also wanted to pass legislation to make homosexuality a crime, wanted to expel all non "full blooded" Russians, and was kicked out of the LDPR for organizing a white supremacist rally. Kuryanovich is the David Duke of Russian politics, and almost nobody takes anything he says seriously. There has never been any serious legislation considered to restrict women from leaving Russia.

Any data coming from Russian sources should always be taken with a large grain of salt.

Agreed. Russian media has some real credibility problems. Even worse than our own media, and that's saying volumes.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

My wife tells me there are programs on Russian TV showing the horrors of Russian women marrying men outside of Russia. Clearly the propaganda machine is busy putting out distorted information typical of a country fearful of loosing more and more citizens to migration to other countries.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that many of these programs are, in fact, not Russian made. I've seen the Indle King story on at least 3-4 different programs within the Discovery Channel family of channels. And these same programs have also done other segments on the dangers of foreign marriages or the difficulties in international child-custody disputes.

There is at least one channel in Russia (I want to say it is RTR-Planeta, but I might be mistaken) whose main source of programming is all of the American made Discovery Channel programs. And since there is a "local interest" (yes I know-- Anastasia King was actually from Bishkek, not Russia, but according to you vv, it's all the same) it wouldn't surprise me if these programs get played often.

[eekee 182]

My wife tells me there are programs on Russian TV showing the horrors of Russian women marrying men outside of Russia. Clearly the propaganda machine is busy putting out distorted information typical of a country fearful of loosing more and more citizens to migration to other countries.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that many of these programs are, in fact, not Russian made. I've seen the Indle King story on at least 3-4 different programs within the Discovery Channel family of channels. And these same programs have also done other segments on the dangers of foreign marriages or the difficulties in international child-custody disputes.

There is at least one channel in Russia (I want to say it is RTR-Planeta, but I might be mistaken) whose main source of programming is all of the American made Discovery Channel programs. And since there is a "local interest" (yes I know-- Anastasia King was actually from Bishkek, not Russia, but according to you vv, it's all the same) it wouldn't surprise me if these programs get played often.

Nope, they are definitely Russian-made and definitely propaganda. They are comparable to 60 Minutes pieces.