Europe or US to meet? Visa questions.

[visaveteran 1]

historical note point..

former FSU countries have little social and cultural ties to Russia as a whole.... This is a horrible misconception and really really a diservice to the indivdual cultures and histories from all FSU terrories.

Ukraine and Russia are VERY VERY different. They were only joined with Russian government for 60 years ... That certainly does not make them russian by any stretch of the imagination. By that logic Hong Kong is indentical to England .....

Actually the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire in the 1800s. The dominant language in cities such as Kiev is Russian, not Ukrainian. Both countries are predominantly Slavic and the key religion is Russian Orthodox. This is not apples and oranges.

With that said, what does this have to do with finding a good wife? Are Ukraine women better? Russian women better? No difference?

[mox 298]

I could make a similar argument that a Russia woman from Moscow is different than one from Siberia and speaks Russian differently also.

Sure. Think about how a woman from New York might have different motivations, and you can get a sense of how different a woman from Kyiv might be from a woman in Krakow or Kastana or Moscow. You can't link the motivations of all FSU women together, because every FSU country is different. Find a person under 20 years old in Kazakhstan, for instance, and there's a really good chance she doesn't speak Russian, because Russian is an "elective" language in that country now. English and German are much more enticing to a lot of Kazakhs nowadays as ties to Europe start to grow stronger, and ties to Russia start to fade.

I think, again, the key issue is how an American man reacts to a Russian woman from various areas.

How an American man reacts to a Russian (or any other) woman has zero to do with her motivations for deciding to move abroad.

My common sense view is that it's about the individual person and not where they reside or their dialect.

This seems contrary to every argument you've made to this point. As I understand it, you believe that the majority of women in FSU countries (or certainly those on international dating sites) are trying to escape their miserable lives by marrying a Westerner.

But anyway, my anecdote about dialect and accent is just the tip of a much larger issue. The point is that even though a woman grew up in a Russian community in a former Soviet republic, with Russian parents and Russians all around her, surrounded by Russian culture, she still can't even come close to passing as Russian. And it's not just her accent. It's her mannerisms, the way she thinks, the way she cooks, even her outlook on life. So given all that, think about how different actual Ukrainians must be to Russians.

You just can't lump all FSU women together like that. K1 hit it on the nail perfectly...like comparing British and Hong Kong citizens. Or if you want to make it a little closer, like comparing the Irish to the English.

[mox 298]

There's a Japanese word with no English equivelant; I think it's pronounced "mu." It means something like "there is no possible way to answer this question." You would answer "mu" if, for example, someone asked if you'd stopped beating your wife yet.

With that said, what does this have to do with finding a good wife? Are Ukraine women better? Russian women better? No difference?

Mu.

[HannahP 119]

You just can't lump all FSU women together like that. K1 hit it on the nail perfectly...like comparing British and Hong Kong citizens. Or if you want to make it a little closer, like comparing the Irish to the English.

What about Canadians to Americans? Or Southerners to Northerners? Canadians to Newfies? Irish to Scottish? Australians to New Zealanders? Whales to dolphins? Apples to oranges? (!)

[SMR 368]

historical note point..

former FSU countries have little social and cultural ties to Russia as a whole.... This is a horrible misconception and really really a diservice to the indivdual cultures and histories from all FSU terrories.

Ukraine and Russia are VERY VERY different. They were only joined with Russian government for 60 years ... That certainly does not make them russian by any stretch of the imagination. By that logic Hong Kong is indentical to England .....

Actually the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire in the 1800s. The dominant language in cities such as Kiev is Russian, not Ukrainian. Both countries are predominantly Slavic and the key religion is Russian Orthodox. This is not apples and oranges.

With that said, what does this have to do with finding a good wife? Are Ukraine women better? Russian women better? No difference?

Just to be a stick in the mud, it's actually Ukrainian Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is only in Russia. Hence the name. By this, I mean that it has a different organization, slightly different ordinances and is in no way officially tied to the Russian Orthodox church.

But more importantly, I know individuals from several countries of the FSU quite well (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Latvia, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Uzbekistan). The point is, they're all different, not because they're from different countries but because they're all different people.

But why I am continuing? We all know that Russian women are named Natasha or Olga, scheming to get a green card, and drop dead gorgeous until the age of 35 when they shrivel into hunchbacks with hooked noses and a shawl that is attached to their chins. And Americans are all fat, proud, and monolingual.

[mox 298]

But why I am continuing? We all know that Russian women are named Natasha or Olga, scheming to get a green card, and drop dead gorgeous until the age of 35 when they shrivel into hunchbacks with hooked noses and a shawl that is attached to their chins. And Americans are all fat, proud, and monolingual.

That's not quite right. You can only get monolingual from kissing girls with cooties. Man, I had monolingual for a whole summer back in junior high. It was awful.

[K1researcher 0]

historical note point..

former FSU countries have little social and cultural ties to Russia as a whole.... This is a horrible misconception and really really a diservice to the indivdual cultures and histories from all FSU terrories.

Ukraine and Russia are VERY VERY different. They were only joined with Russian government for 60 years ... That certainly does not make them russian by any stretch of the imagination. By that logic Hong Kong is indentical to England .....

Actually the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire in the 1800s. The dominant language in cities such as Kiev is Russian, not Ukrainian. Both countries are predominantly Slavic and the key religion is Russian Orthodox. This is not apples and oranges.

With that said, what does this have to do with finding a good wife? Are Ukraine women better? Russian women better? No difference?

your hsory has some problems..... they were also take over by Poland and lithuania .. for longer periods than by Russia.... you are not relying on actual history to make your judgements. so its kind of like apples and kiwis ....

[visaveteran 1]

historical note point..

former FSU countries have little social and cultural ties to Russia as a whole.... This is a horrible misconception and really really a diservice to the indivdual cultures and histories from all FSU terrories.

Ukraine and Russia are VERY VERY different. They were only joined with Russian government for 60 years ... That certainly does not make them russian by any stretch of the imagination. By that logic Hong Kong is indentical to England .....

Actually the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire in the 1800s. The dominant language in cities such as Kiev is Russian, not Ukrainian. Both countries are predominantly Slavic and the key religion is Russian Orthodox. This is not apples and oranges.

With that said, what does this have to do with finding a good wife? Are Ukraine women better? Russian women better? No difference?

your hsory has some problems..... they were also take over by Poland and lithuania .. for longer periods than by Russia.... you are not relying on actual history to make your judgements. so its kind of like apples and kiwis ....

You said the Ukraine was run by Russia for 60 years...that's false. During the time of the Czars Russia controlled a large part of the Ukraine as did the Austria-Hungarian empire. Maybe you prefer apples and crow.

[visaveteran 1]

historical note point..

former FSU countries have little social and cultural ties to Russia as a whole.... This is a horrible misconception and really really a diservice to the indivdual cultures and histories from all FSU terrories.

Ukraine and Russia are VERY VERY different. They were only joined with Russian government for 60 years ... That certainly does not make them russian by any stretch of the imagination. By that logic Hong Kong is indentical to England .....

Actually the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire in the 1800s. The dominant language in cities such as Kiev is Russian, not Ukrainian. Both countries are predominantly Slavic and the key religion is Russian Orthodox. This is not apples and oranges.

With that said, what does this have to do with finding a good wife? Are Ukraine women better? Russian women better? No difference?

Just to be a stick in the mud, it's actually Ukrainian Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is only in Russia. Hence the name. By this, I mean that it has a different organization, slightly different ordinances and is in no way officially tied to the Russian Orthodox church.

But more importantly, I know individuals from several countries of the FSU quite well (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Latvia, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Uzbekistan). The point is, they're all different, not because they're from different countries but because they're all different people.

But why I am continuing? We all know that Russian women are named Natasha or Olga, scheming to get a green card, and drop dead gorgeous until the age of 35 when they shrivel into hunchbacks with hooked noses and a shawl that is attached to their chins. And Americans are all fat, proud, and monolingual.

Well, not exactly Ukrainian Orthodox...The religion is called The Orthodox Church, also officially called the Orthodox Catholic Church and commonly referred to in English speaking countries as the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Yes, many countries with different people but all have Russian populations living there something like former colonists. Perhaps they're effected by their non Russian environment so as to be a bit different than those living in major cities in Russia, but still Russians. Some are now persecuted and penalized for being Russians as I have witnessed in Latvia. Putin put into place a program to motivate Russians living outside the country to return home to Russia.

[visaveteran 1]

I could make a similar argument that a Russia woman from Moscow is different than one from Siberia and speaks Russian differently also.

Sure. Think about how a woman from New York might have different motivations, and you can get a sense of how different a woman from Kyiv might be from a woman in Krakow or Kastana or Moscow. You can't link the motivations of all FSU women together, because every FSU country is different. Find a person under 20 years old in Kazakhstan, for instance, and there's a really good chance she doesn't speak Russian, because Russian is an "elective" language in that country now. English and German are much more enticing to a lot of Kazakhs nowadays as ties to Europe start to grow stronger, and ties to Russia start to fade.

I think, again, the key issue is how an American man reacts to a Russian woman from various areas.

How an American man reacts to a Russian (or any other) woman has zero to do with her motivations for deciding to move abroad.

My common sense view is that it's about the individual person and not where they reside or their dialect.

This seems contrary to every argument you've made to this point. As I understand it, you believe that the majority of women in FSU countries (or certainly those on international dating sites) are trying to escape their miserable lives by marrying a Westerner.

But anyway, my anecdote about dialect and accent is just the tip of a much larger issue. The point is that even though a woman grew up in a Russian community in a former Soviet republic, with Russian parents and Russians all around her, surrounded by Russian culture, she still can't even come close to passing as Russian. And it's not just her accent. It's her mannerisms, the way she thinks, the way she cooks, even her outlook on life. So given all that, think about how different actual Ukrainians must be to Russians.

You just can't lump all FSU women together like that. K1 hit it on the nail perfectly...like comparing British and Hong Kong citizens. Or if you want to make it a little closer, like comparing the Irish to the English.

From following this visa site and others, I see mostly marriages or K-1s coming from Russia and the Ukraine as far as the FSU is concerned. Perhaps a few from Belarus which is currently very pro Russia. The histories of these neighbors are intertwined and obviously Russia cares greatly who runs the Ukraine and what's going on there and vice versus. Some areas of the Ukraine are pro Russia and some are anti-Russia. Russian is spoken by 29% of the country, mostly in the major cities. The main language in Kyiv is Russian.

If an American man visits a Russian woman living in the Ukraine, he won't understand she may be a bit different than a Russian woman living in Moscow unless he's also met and dated someone from Moscow and sees a difference (if any exists). So who cares about her dialect, style of cooking or what her favorite drink is? She's a Russian woman looking for a husband...be it American or otherwise. She will look Russian, have Russian blood in her veins and probably have visited back to Russia. Her parents may still live in Russia. She may have an ex husband from Russia. She may be on the identical international dating web site as other women living in Russia. She may well have a Russian passport.

The American man will care less what her country of residence is except around getting her visa. Her motivation was to get married which is the same motivation as the Russian woman living in Moscow. She likely does not look any different than a Slavic woman living in Russia. There is a good chance she is Orthodox or atheist much the same as the women living in Russia. She probably likes Vodka and brandy. She my wear clothes made in Russia. There likely won't be any drastic difference in her and any other Russian women in other parts of the world.

PM Putin considers Russians living outside Russia as true Russians. In fact, he started a program to attract those Russians back to Mother Russia. If Putin is OK with them being Russians, so am I.

It is my judgment that many FSU countries are not assimilating Russians but, rather, are persecuting and penalizing them for being Russian.

As far as a true Ukrainian woman being different than a Russian woman, I can't say...but I doubt the differences will be so drastic or obvious as to be keenly understood by the average Joe American who may visit her. They look the same in a basic sense and speak a language the man probably does not understand, be it Russian or Ukrainian. The food may be different but either way, not your typical American food. So I'm not seeing a dramatic difference that will jump up in the face of the American man. Differences would probably be described as subtle or invisible to the untrained eye.

So, Mox, who gives a rat's ####?

[baron555 934]

I met, in Kiev, with a Russian woman who lives in Moscow and who is from southern Russia.

Everyone understood her and so did I.

Just saying.

[mox 298]

So, Mox, who gives a rat's ####?

I'm confused. Why are you shifting motivations? You began your opposition to the OP visiting Russia by saying, in effect, that Russia is a shithole and not worthy of our time or money, and by the way that's why all the women are trying to marry Westerners. Now you've shifted it over to "men want hawt Russian women and don't really care if they're from Kyiv or Moscow because they're all the same to these men."

Why Western men want FSU women is a completely separate conversation. The argument I've consistently been addressing is:

The RUB choirboys are singing again...they suffered so YOU suffer. It's a right of passage. Plus, it's required to pretend Russia is a great place to be sweet to the ladies. It is not great, and that is that. Unless, of course, you're a masochist.

Compared to most western Europe countries, Russia is not even in the same league. Let's face it, Russia is a harsh country run by a dictatorship and still operates on the old feudal system. Exploit the lowly citizens to better the life of the few wealthy...like in the USA only far worse. The living proof is the mass exodus of the Russian people to other places...especially the USA. I can't turn around without bumping into people from the FSU. With the current economic crisis, life in Russia, outside of it's two facade modern cities, life is brutal and costly. Food prices have shot up and it's worse each day. But according to the choirboys, Russia is mecca. reied peopl live on $100 a month...the cost of food for one week.

If you want to get into a discussion about the Western man's motivations and (mis-)understandings about the various FSU cultures, then I suppose we could have that conversation. But I want to be clear that for the purposes of the point you made earlier on, the perspective of the Western man is completely irrelevant.

[visaveteran 1]

So, Mox, who gives a rat's ####?

I'm confused. Why are you shifting motivations? You began your opposition to the OP visiting Russia by saying, in effect, that Russia is a shithole and not worthy of our time or money, and by the way that's why all the women are trying to marry Westerners. Now you've shifted it over to "men want hawt Russian women and don't really care if they're from Kyiv or Moscow because they're all the same to these men."

Why Western men want FSU women is a completely separate conversation. The argument I've consistently been addressing is:

The RUB choirboys are singing again...they suffered so YOU suffer. It's a right of passage. Plus, it's required to pretend Russia is a great place to be sweet to the ladies. It is not great, and that is that. Unless, of course, you're a masochist.

Compared to most western Europe countries, Russia is not even in the same league. Let's face it, Russia is a harsh country run by a dictatorship and still operates on the old feudal system. Exploit the lowly citizens to better the life of the few wealthy...like in the USA only far worse. The living proof is the mass exodus of the Russian people to other places...especially the USA. I can't turn around without bumping into people from the FSU. With the current economic crisis, life in Russia, outside of it's two facade modern cities, life is brutal and costly. Food prices have shot up and it's worse each day. But according to the choirboys, Russia is mecca. reied peopl live on $100 a month...the cost of food for one week.

If you want to get into a discussion about the Western man's motivations and (mis-)understandings about the various FSU cultures, then I suppose we could have that conversation. But I want to be clear that for the purposes of the point you made earlier on, the perspective of the Western man is completely irrelevant.

Not shifting motivations...you're shifting conversations. The current one is of your making...you provided data that the Philappines and Thailand populations were large enough to compare to Russia. I argued back that you need to count the entire FSU. You then began to make weak points that each country is so unique as to not allow for combining the FSU. I countered that.

Is this all coming back to you?

[mox 298]

Not shifting motivations...you're shifting conversations. The current one is of your making...you provided data that the Philappines and Thailand populations were large enough to compare to Russia. I argued back that you need to count the entire FSU. You then began to make weak points that each country is so unique as to not allow for combining the FSU. I countered that.

Is this all coming back to you?

lol, I guess so. If this all boils down to "uh-huh," "nuh-uh" then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[SMR 368]

I could make a similar argument that a Russia woman from Moscow is different than one from Siberia and speaks Russian differently also.

Sure. Think about how a woman from New York might have different motivations, and you can get a sense of how different a woman from Kyiv might be from a woman in Krakow or Kastana or Moscow. You can't link the motivations of all FSU women together, because every FSU country is different. Find a person under 20 years old in Kazakhstan, for instance, and there's a really good chance she doesn't speak Russian, because Russian is an "elective" language in that country now. English and German are much more enticing to a lot of Kazakhs nowadays as ties to Europe start to grow stronger, and ties to Russia start to fade.

I think, again, the key issue is how an American man reacts to a Russian woman from various areas.

How an American man reacts to a Russian (or any other) woman has zero to do with her motivations for deciding to move abroad.

My common sense view is that it's about the individual person and not where they reside or their dialect.

This seems contrary to every argument you've made to this point. As I understand it, you believe that the majority of women in FSU countries (or certainly those on international dating sites) are trying to escape their miserable lives by marrying a Westerner.

But anyway, my anecdote about dialect and accent is just the tip of a much larger issue. The point is that even though a woman grew up in a Russian community in a former Soviet republic, with Russian parents and Russians all around her, surrounded by Russian culture, she still can't even come close to passing as Russian. And it's not just her accent. It's her mannerisms, the way she thinks, the way she cooks, even her outlook on life. So given all that, think about how different actual Ukrainians must be to Russians.

You just can't lump all FSU women together like that. K1 hit it on the nail perfectly...like comparing British and Hong Kong citizens. Or if you want to make it a little closer, like comparing the Irish to the English.

From following this visa site and others, I see mostly marriages or K-1s coming from Russia and the Ukraine as far as the FSU is concerned. Perhaps a few from Belarus which is currently very pro Russia. The histories of these neighbors are intertwined and obviously Russia cares greatly who runs the Ukraine and what's going on there and vice versus. Some areas of the Ukraine are pro Russia and some are anti-Russia. Russian is spoken by 29% of the country, mostly in the major cities. The main language in Kyiv is Russian.

If an American man visits a Russian woman living in the Ukraine, he won't understand she may be a bit different than a Russian woman living in Moscow unless he's also met and dated someone from Moscow and sees a difference (if any exists). So who cares about her dialect, style of cooking or what her favorite drink is? She's a Russian woman looking for a husband...be it American or otherwise. She will look Russian, have Russian blood in her veins and probably have visited back to Russia. Her parents may still live in Russia. She may have an ex husband from Russia. She may be on the identical international dating web site as other women living in Russia. She may well have a Russian passport.

The American man will care less what her country of residence is except around getting her visa. Her motivation was to get married which is the same motivation as the Russian woman living in Moscow. She likely does not look any different than a Slavic woman living in Russia. There is a good chance she is Orthodox or atheist much the same as the women living in Russia. She probably likes Vodka and brandy. She my wear clothes made in Russia. There likely won't be any drastic difference in her and any other Russian women in other parts of the world.

PM Putin considers Russians living outside Russia as true Russians. In fact, he started a program to attract those Russians back to Mother Russia. If Putin is OK with them being Russians, so am I.

It is my judgment that many FSU countries are not assimilating Russians but, rather, are persecuting and penalizing them for being Russian.

As far as a true Ukrainian woman being different than a Russian woman, I can't say...but I doubt the differences will be so drastic or obvious as to be keenly understood by the average Joe American who may visit her. They look the same in a basic sense and speak a language the man probably does not understand, be it Russian or Ukrainian. The food may be different but either way, not your typical American food. So I'm not seeing a dramatic difference that will jump up in the face of the American man. Differences would probably be described as subtle or invisible to the untrained eye.

So, Mox, who gives a rat's ####?

We all know that Russian women are named Natasha or Olga, scheming to get a green card, and drop dead gorgeous until the age of 35 when they shrivel into hunchbacks with hooked noses and a shawl that is attached to their chins. And Americans are all fat, proud, and monolingual.

Or, if the sarcasm was too deep for you, why do you feel the need to prove that all FSU women are the same? Even if Ukraine and Russia and Belarus and wherever else all have the same culture, the people in those countries are diverse, unique, and interesting. I think you need to spend some more time in Russia if for no other reason than to realize that people in other countries are actually people, too, and not the borg.