Europe or US to meet? Visa questions.

[visaveteran 1]

There are police in many cities across the globe that like to hassle tourists; I don't think Russia has the market cornered on that.

Could you give us some specific details? Your personal experiences across the globe with the police? Or was that just an empty unprovable statement?

So...you think baron555 is lying? Let's look at your own "specific details":

Russia is a harsh country run by a dictatorship and still operates on the old feudal system. Exploit the lowly citizens to better the life of the few wealthy...like in the USA only far worse. The living proof is the mass exodus of the Russian people to other places...especially the USA. I can't turn around without bumping into people from the FSU. With the current economic crisis, life in Russia, outside of it's two facade modern cities, life is brutal and costly. Food prices have shot up and it's worse each day.

I don't see a lot of "specifics" here, just some vague generalizations.

I really don't get you vv. I get that you don't like Russia. I mean, I REALLY get it, you've made it clear as day. But what I don't get is why you have to run everyone else down who had different experiences and who hold contrary views to your own. You call us "choirboys" and accuse us of misleading a poster into going to Russia to spread the misery around or something, not real clear on that exactly. Couldn't it just be that many of us had different experiences?

I also don't get why you participate in these discussions. You always wind up sounding pissed off and angry. I just don't understand what you could be getting out of all of this, unless you just want to be disruptive. But you're not even really being disruptive, you're just kind of being a parody of disruptive. It's amusing and all, but that's about it.

You don't have to agree with everyone, or even anyone. But I think you'd be happier if instead of running everyone down who doesn't hold your opinions, you just agreed to disagree.

Mox, what is your need to act as a shield for another poster? Or to challenge me when you're not in the conversation? Obviously, I got your goat even though it was not my intention.

I think the specificity of my comments was far greater than the one I challenged. That's my judgment. You seem to have a different judgment. OK...your issues are duly noted. That's what happens on forums...people disagree and sometimes with a lot of energy as with you and your issues with George Bush, the tea parties, Republicans, etc. I'd say you're degree of anger is quite visible when you get into your own #######. I don't remember people suggesting you agree to disagree. Can you walk your own talk?

How does one "disrupt" a monitored, anonymous, online forum with honest comments based on experience? Maybe disrupt the dominate choirboys principles? Disrupt your attempts to rule the roost? Maybe you could be more "specific."

As to why I choose to post, well, that's my business is it not? You need not worry about that. But I will say a few contrary voices is not a bad thing. I challenge the notion that there is any innate value in visiting Russia; nor is it imperative to go there to understand a Russian woman and her culture. There is only one reason to go to Russia, and that is to begin the process of getting her OUT of Russia. The fact that she decided to pick a man outside of Russia says a lot about her loyalty and love of Russia. It's true that some women actually can't live outside Russia but i see that more as the same issues when a prison inmate struggles on the outside world. I think some Russian women have a love-hate relationship with their country and, of course, they have family ties. But for the women who do adjust outside of Russia, they almost always try to bring over members of their family. What should we conclude from this fact?

[baron555 934]

VV you are totally wrong with this statement, at least based on my personal experience with one woman:

The fact that she decided to pick a man outside of Russia says a lot about her loyalty and love of Russia. It's true that some women actually can't live outside Russia but i see that more as the same issues when a prison inmate struggles on the outside world. I think some Russian women have a love-hate relationship with their country and, of course, they have family ties. But for the women who do adjust outside of Russia, they almost always try to bring over members of their family. What should we conclude from this fact?

My RW is deciding to come live with me because she loves me, so much, that she is willing to leave her nice life that she created for herself to be with me. And to this fact, she knows that we will revisit back to the dirty rotten place many times to visit with the lovely people and family that she knows. And she has no problem dealing with the Russian police and will not have a hard time living on the outside of the prision of Russia.

I don't know if every Russian immigrant tries to get their family out of the country; I'd like to see your source for these statistics.

Or, is it just your personal speculation?

Edited September 28, 2009 by baron555

[visaveteran 1]

Never been to Mexico? Let's talk about corruption (Mordida please!)

I've been hassled by police(or better, tried to be hassled) in Chicago, New York City, Toronto, New Orleans, Mexico, Costa Rica, Jamaica, but never in Kiev!!!

But I also didn't let it detract from the beauty I found in all those places nor did I end up in jail nor did it affect my future thinkings of the places.

I always can talk my way out of a bad situation and also never allow myself to get into the situations in the first place.

Some people just have a natural knack for finding trouble.

Yes, Mexico is notorious for crooked cops but not many of us are looking for Mexican wives, although there may be a market. BTW, I was in Mexico and had no problems.

Any interaction with the police could be called "a hassle." The cops usually don't stop people to say hello. That does not necessarily condemn the cops or indict them as crooks or brutal.

In some cases in Russia it is not about actions but inactions. My wife had a woman friend killed by her husband and the police let him walk. Money talks...everybody walks. It's unbelievable.

We can love Russian women and still dislike the obvious problems with their country. I don't see any irony in that.

[visaveteran 1]

VV you are totally wrong with this statement, at least based on my personal experience with one woman:

The fact that she decided to pick a man outside of Russia says a lot about her loyalty and love of Russia. It's true that some women actually can't live outside Russia but i see that more as the same issues when a prison inmate struggles on the outside world. I think some Russian women have a love-hate relationship with their country and, of course, they have family ties. But for the women who do adjust outside of Russia, they almost always try to bring over members of their family. What should we conclude from this fact?

My RW is deciding to come live with me because she loves me, so much, that she is willing to leave her nice life that she created for herself to be with me. And to this fact, she knows that we will revisit back to the dirty rotten place many times to visit with the lovely people and family that she knows. And she has no problem dealing with the Russian police and will not have a hard time living on the outside of the prision of Russia.

I don't know if every Russian immigrant tries to get their family out of the country; I'd like to see your source for these statistics.

Or, is it just your personal speculation?

My wife and I belong to a large Russian Cultural group in my home city in the USA. I've attended many events and met many Russian folks from this association. From this sample of the greater Russian-American community, I have seen many parents and siblings brought over by the sponsoring American-Russian couples. Not a scientific sample, but more than my speculation.

[mox 298]

Mox, what is your need to act as a shield for another poster? Or to challenge me when you're not in the conversation? Obviously, I got your goat even though it was not my intention.

If you want to limit your conversation to a single poster, use the pm system. Feel free to keep the goat though, I've got more than I need anyway.

I think the specificity of my comments was far greater than the one I challenged. That's my judgment. You seem to have a different judgment. OK...your issues are duly noted. That's what happens on forums...people disagree and sometimes with a lot of energy as with you and your issues with George Bush, the tea parties, Republicans, etc. I'd say you're degree of anger is quite visible when you get into your own #######. I don't remember people suggesting you agree to disagree. Can you walk your own talk?

Wow, left turn at Albuquerque much? I'm not replying to you because my politics differ from your own, I'm replying to you because you don't seem to be able to just make a point (in this case, Russia sucks, their police are the most corrupt in the world), but you also have to run down those of us whose experiences and opinions are different than your own. I don't mind a vigorous argument, especially one backed on both sides by facts. But when you go accusing somebody of being vague, while yourself doing the same thing, then yeah I'm gonna stick my nose in it. Because I'm a nose-sticker. It's what I do.

How does one "disrupt" a monitored, anonymous, online forum with honest comments based on experience? Maybe disrupt the dominate choirboys principles? Disrupt your attempts to rule the roost? Maybe you could be more "specific."

Well, as I said, *if* you're here to disrupt, then you're not very good at it. So hey, maybe you're not here to disrupt. Nice use of the "choirboys" remark again though. Not that it bothers me, my voice has never been quite good enough to go solo. But you seem to be arguing that you're just here for helpful conversation out of one side of your mouth, while spouting playground rhetoric out the other side. And then you're dismayed when I respond to you with ridicule and condescension.

As to why I choose to post, well, that's my business is it not? You need not worry about that. But I will say a few contrary voices is not a bad thing.

Every now and then, you and I finally agree on something. Voices of dissent are cool. But when you have little to say except calling names (choirboys, etc) that's not dissent, that's just douchebaggery. And frankly, if you're going to come into a "Russia" forum (granted, a "Russia" forum as seen primarily through the eyes of Western men, but a "Russia" forum nonetheless) with some pretty unfriendly views of the country, don't you think you should expect at least some contrary views?

I challenge the notion that there is any innate value in visiting Russia; nor is it imperative to go there to understand a Russian woman and her culture. There is only one reason to go to Russia, and that is to begin the process of getting her OUT of Russia. The fact that she decided to pick a man outside of Russia says a lot about her loyalty and love of Russia. It's true that some women actually can't live outside Russia but i see that more as the same issues when a prison inmate struggles on the outside world. I think some Russian women have a love-hate relationship with their country and, of course, they have family ties. But for the women who do adjust outside of Russia, they almost always try to bring over members of their family. What should we conclude from this fact?

THIS. At long last you've managed to make your point without resorting to insults or vague generalizations. I of course don't agree with your opinion, but this one single paragraph would have been very useful information for the OP to read when making his decision on whether or not to visit.

For what it's worth, I think you've got a lot of valuable experiences that would be of benefit to this community. I don't agree with a lot of your conclusions, but then it would be a pretty boring world if everybody agreed with me. I just think it's a shame that the only way you ever offer your input around here is by ridiculing those with a contrary view.

[visaveteran 1]

VV you are totally wrong with this statement, at least based on my personal experience with one woman:

The fact that she decided to pick a man outside of Russia says a lot about her loyalty and love of Russia. It's true that some women actually can't live outside Russia but i see that more as the same issues when a prison inmate struggles on the outside world. I think some Russian women have a love-hate relationship with their country and, of course, they have family ties. But for the women who do adjust outside of Russia, they almost always try to bring over members of their family. What should we conclude from this fact?

My RW is deciding to come live with me because she loves me, so much, that she is willing to leave her nice life that she created for herself to be with me. And to this fact, she knows that we will revisit back to the dirty rotten place many times to visit with the lovely people and family that she knows. And she has no problem dealing with the Russian police and will not have a hard time living on the outside of the prision of Russia.

I don't know if every Russian immigrant tries to get their family out of the country; I'd like to see your source for these statistics.

Or, is it just your personal speculation?

Concerning why your wife left Russia...tell me, did you meet on a dating website (if you care to share this info)? If so, then I think we can assume she wanted out of Russia or she could have used one of the many Russian social network forums to meet a Russian man. Or simply gone to the right restaurants or dance spots in Russia where men and women typically met.

Of course, it makes us all feel good to think the Russian ladies are leaving just for us...but what was the original intention of these women? Why join websites to met American or European men if life in Russia is so great?

[baron555 934]

Yes we did meet on a dating website and yes she was also on some of the Russian websites. She has a little 2 year old and all men just run away when they see this combination. I was the first that she ever met from abroad, and she was my first to go meet.

Her purpose to be on the websites was to possibly find a forever match; not to get out of Dodge.

You take too seriously what you read on those websites about these hordes of single women wanting to get out of Russia.

[visaveteran 1]

Mox, what is your need to act as a shield for another poster? Or to challenge me when you're not in the conversation? Obviously, I got your goat even though it was not my intention.

If you want to limit your conversation to a single poster, use the pm system. Feel free to keep the goat though, I've got more than I need anyway.

I think the specificity of my comments was far greater than the one I challenged. That's my judgment. You seem to have a different judgment. OK...your issues are duly noted. That's what happens on forums...people disagree and sometimes with a lot of energy as with you and your issues with George Bush, the tea parties, Republicans, etc. I'd say you're degree of anger is quite visible when you get into your own #######. I don't remember people suggesting you agree to disagree. Can you walk your own talk?

Wow, left turn at Albuquerque much? I'm not replying to you because my politics differ from your own, I'm replying to you because you don't seem to be able to just make a point (in this case, Russia sucks, their police are the most corrupt in the world), but you also have to run down those of us whose experiences and opinions are different than your own. I don't mind a vigorous argument, especially one backed on both sides by facts. But when you go accusing somebody of being vague, while yourself doing the same thing, then yeah I'm gonna stick my nose in it. Because I'm a nose-sticker. It's what I do.

How does one "disrupt" a monitored, anonymous, online forum with honest comments based on experience? Maybe disrupt the dominate choirboys principles? Disrupt your attempts to rule the roost? Maybe you could be more "specific."

Well, as I said, *if* you're here to disrupt, then you're not very good at it. So hey, maybe you're not here to disrupt. Nice use of the "choirboys" remark again though. Not that it bothers me, my voice has never been quite good enough to go solo. But you seem to be arguing that you're just here for helpful conversation out of one side of your mouth, while spouting playground rhetoric out the other side. And then you're dismayed when I respond to you with ridicule and condescension.

As to why I choose to post, well, that's my business is it not? You need not worry about that. But I will say a few contrary voices is not a bad thing.

Every now and then, you and I finally agree on something. Voices of dissent are cool. But when you have little to say except calling names (choirboys, etc) that's not dissent, that's just douchebaggery. And frankly, if you're going to come into a "Russia" forum (granted, a "Russia" forum as seen primarily through the eyes of Western men, but a "Russia" forum nonetheless) with some pretty unfriendly views of the country, don't you think you should expect at least some contrary views?

I challenge the notion that there is any innate value in visiting Russia; nor is it imperative to go there to understand a Russian woman and her culture. There is only one reason to go to Russia, and that is to begin the process of getting her OUT of Russia. The fact that she decided to pick a man outside of Russia says a lot about her loyalty and love of Russia. It's true that some women actually can't live outside Russia but i see that more as the same issues when a prison inmate struggles on the outside world. I think some Russian women have a love-hate relationship with their country and, of course, they have family ties. But for the women who do adjust outside of Russia, they almost always try to bring over members of their family. What should we conclude from this fact?

THIS. At long last you've managed to make your point without resorting to insults or vague generalizations. I of course don't agree with your opinion, but this one single paragraph would have been very useful information for the OP to read when making his decision on whether or not to visit.

For what it's worth, I think you've got a lot of valuable experiences that would be of benefit to this community. I don't agree with a lot of your conclusions, but then it would be a pretty boring world if everybody agreed with me. I just think it's a shame that the only way you ever offer your input around here is by ridiculing those with a contrary view.

Mox, I appreciate the conciliatory and reasoned comments. You have made your case and I have made mine. I think we can and should let it go.

Some of my hard reaction is to the subtle undertone of snide comments and dismissal I detect when someone offers a counter position. If I don't like Russia I should not have to defend my true feelings against the majority who say they like Russia or actually do like Russia.

[visaveteran 1]

Yes we did meet on a dating website and yes she was also on some of the Russian websites. She has a little 2 year old and all men just run away when they see this combination. I was the first that she ever met from abroad, and she was my first to go meet.

Her purpose to be on the websites was to possibly find a forever match; not to get out of Dodge.

You take too seriously what you read on those websites about these hordes of single women wanting to get out of Russia.

I think it all depends on where the women lives in Russia and how old she is...and yes, maybe if she has children or not (most have children). If a young Russian woman who never knew communism lives in St. Petersburg and has a decent job, maybe she will be less attracted to moving away from Russia. Maybe she will be "choosy" about her future husband. But if she is an older woman (and in Russia, older means over 30) and lives in Siberia where the ratio of of women to men is very skewed to women, than her willingness to move abroad may be very high. She may be less choosy. The situation dictates the motivation.

[mox 298]

Concerning why your wife left Russia...tell me, did you meet on a dating website (if you care to share this info)? If so, then I think we can assume she wanted out of Russia or she could have used one of the many Russian social network forums to meet a Russian man. Or simply gone to the right restaurants or dance spots in Russia where men and women typically met.

I don't think you can make this assumption. There are plenty of alternative explanations:

- There's a little village in Scotland that I'd move to tomorrow if I could afford it. Not because life is so horrible in my own country, but because there are certain features of this village that really appeal to me. For that matter, should we assume all American expats (or those who are looking to live long term overseas) are trying to get out of the US?

- How many Canadian women met their husbands on an international dating site? Do we assume that Canadians want out of Canada? Germans? Australians?

- As for why they don't use local dating sites, I'm guessing a lot of them did. Sometimes you just need to broaden your search.

Any, all, or none of these could be true, but the point is that you can't just "assume." I personally know about 10 FSU people living in the US, and only one of them left because life was so miserable in their country. That person left in (if I remember correctly) 1989 as a political refugee. In this case, life was not so great for him. He was a poet and an intellectual...needless to say, an enemy of the state.

Which is not to say that you're probably right about the motivations of some Russian women, but I don't think there's any evidence to show that this is true in the general case.

Of course, it makes us all feel good to think the Russian ladies are leaving just for us...but what was the original intention of these women? Why join websites to met American or European men if life in Russia is so great?

For myself, I would talke my SO at her word, whatever her explanation.

Edited September 28, 2009 by mox

[baron555 934]

The situation dictates the motivation.

Exactly, so categorical statements should be avoided.

[visaveteran 1]

The situation dictates the motivation.

Exactly, so categorical statements should be avoided.

All I know is that since the fall of the SU in 1989 a flood of Russian women have married US men and come to the USA. This is not a small thing...but a huge phenomena. Clearly, Russian women like to marry American or non Russian men. Clearly they are very willing to leave Russia and sometimes bring along family members beyond children. I find it hard to believe that all of this mass migration by Russian women is all about romance and random meetings and true love.

There is a greater sociological event going on. You will not find this same phenomena going on in Europe, Asia, or South America. Why?

It is my judgment that the Russian woman is less driven by love and courtship issues then by pragmatic and survival issues. That is why a fat, bald, ugly US man (per Mox's frequent referral) can find and marry a young, beautiful Russian woman and be successful over time.

[baron555 934]

The situation dictates the motivation.

Exactly, so categorical statements should be avoided.

All I know is that since the fall of the SU in 1989 a flood of Russian women have married US men and come to the USA. This is not a small thing...but a huge phenomena. Clearly, Russian women like to marry American or non Russian men. Clearly they are very willing to leave Russia and sometimes bring along family members beyond children. I find it hard to believe that all of this mass migration by Russian women is all about romance and random meetings and true love.

There is a greater sociological event going on. You will not find this same phenomena going on in Europe, Asia, or South America. Why?

It is my judgment that the Russian woman is less driven by love and courtship issues then by pragmatic and survival issues. That is why a fat, bald, ugly US man (per Mox's frequent referral) can find and marry a young, beautiful Russian woman and be successful over time.

Actually the flood you mention only occured because the Russian government started to allow them to leave; they were oppressed from leaving before that.

You will not find this same phenomena going on in Europe, Asia, or South America. Why?

Wanna bet? Ever notice how many Hispanic women are here now? And how many want to leave the Phils? I don't see this mass exodus of women from Russia that you seem to see; maybe you ought to open your boundaries and do more research outside your area.

And, I am not fat, bald or ugly. Really, you read too much off those dating websites.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Concerning why your wife left Russia...tell me, did you meet on a dating website (if you care to share this info)? If so, then I think we can assume she wanted out of Russia or she could have used one of the many Russian social network forums to meet a Russian man. Or simply gone to the right restaurants or dance spots in Russia where men and women typically met.

Of course, it makes us all feel good to think the Russian ladies are leaving just for us...but what was the original intention of these women? Why join websites to met American or European men if life in Russia is so great?

On this one I DO have something to say:

I met my fiancee on a RUSSIAN social networking site. She was not looking for foreigners. She was minding her own business at home. But I disrupted her peace and told her that the only way to be with me is to leave her lovely Russia, because I have nothing to do there.

One month after her visa was granted, I am still waiting, but she promised that she is going to come soon ... because she loves me.

Therefore, not all Russian women leave because they are desperate to get away from life in Russia. She is clear that I do not want to be there, so she has no other choice. It is here with me, or there with somebody else.

Not defending anybody's point of view, but just stating the facts of one very specific case that I am familiar with.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

And, I am not fat, bald or ugly. Really, you read too much off those dating websites.

We are all fat, bald, and old perverts looking for young hotties in Russia, because American women do not want anything to do with us.

Vivre le feminism!!!