Behavior you (USC man) find odd

[baron555 934]

I think women in Moscow and St. Petersburg probably are not so anxious to leave their homeland and also have nice flats, jobs, cars, etc. I dated such a woman for about a year each. I even met her in the Dominican Republic for two weeks. She paid her own airfare. It was a great fling but ultimately she chose to keep her life in Russia. We parted friends...and she was superb. There is, however, a competition issue. Must of the online dating or more localized personal servcie match-makers focus on the big city girls...who wants to send naive, unprepared American men into the harshness of Siberia? Not a limo in sight. English speakers a rarity. So, teh city girls have it good...lots of guys heading their way. So the auction begins...who will make the highest offer?

My Msocow girlfriend did a poor job of hiding the fact that she had other suitors. One time she unhooked her hard line phone during my visit.

I think you Ukrainia-niks tend to stick with the bigger cities in the Ukraine, especially Kiev, for wife searching. So you will, certainly, encounter women who need to be persuaded and impressed and so forth. That can come off as noble or endearing...but what is it really? Looking for the best deal. No great deal, no immigration. The American men, in true style, suggest this is proof their women are looking for love. Love of what?

Not sure what would be the equivalent to Siberia in the Ukraine. I don't hear much from men who've gone off the beaten path to find a wife in the harsher regions of the Ukraine...so you all sing the same song about the choosy, well-off or comfortable women who will only marry for the love of a man. Never for AC and a nice car.

OK, try going into the deep, harsh interior and see if that profile changes.

A Ukraine woman from Kiev is very different from one living in the interior villages. You can't understand until you venture out there...where English is rarely spoken and you don't get a private driver...just a junker taxi or an ancient bus...or walk it. Life is harsh and women are anxious to leave...so you can expect high respect, gratitude, and cooperation in moving forward in a relationship. Rather than wining and dining and hoping she picks YOU.

A judge lot of American men hide, deny and repress the truth that the term, "Mail Order Bride" is not that far off the mark to save face and to fabricate a relationship that is advertised as love when it may well be for other reasons. The fat, bald guy who gets the beautiful, gorgeous younger wife is not far fetched. But you will not likely find that sort of possibility these days unless you go pioneer. Take the road less travelled. Or, get a cushy overseas job and YOU are in the drivers seat...as with Gary. Gary is not the typical, internet driven American wife shopper.

Good for him. The rest of us have to do it the hard and fast way.

In general I would say these generalizations are just generalizations. One can not make such categorical statements as absolute truths.

When I was doing my online dating thing a year ago, a lady from Siberia and another from Kazak were far from desperate (even though they did admit their life was not a city life). Another who lives in the Urals is a well educated and noble lass. The most desparate to improve her living conditions lived in Kiev!

There is no such thing as a MOB, that's illegal. Many men, though, have no idea or the skills it takes to engage in an international relationship. I am certain this is more the fault (?) of the men rather than the women. There are many many very real women who would like to improve their relationship lives if not also their personal lives and they live in all countries, including here in the US.

However if you believe everything you read, then you will fall into the trap. (All of Ukraine is radioactive?)

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

A quick response to some of the posts above. First, Gary is 100% right about the creature comforts. They are nice to have, but most Ukrainians I know are very happy where they are (in Ukraine), and would not move for AC, or anything like that. I hope we can all acknowledge that when those kinds of things drive a relationship there is a huge problem somewhere.

Secondly, most of Ukraine is definitely not radioactive. There is an exclusion zone around Chernobyl, and radiation levels outside Pripyat are monitored pretty closely. There is a higher incidence of certain illnesses (cancer, thyroid, etc.) the closer you get to the zone, but travelers are in no danger. They even do tours into the exclusion zone now. I still wouldn't eat the mushrooms from that part of the country though

Well then Gary..... there is something that you offer to her that keeps her coming back to you?

Love?

Substinance?

Cooking?

Syrup?

Fish?

Long......?

There must be something about you?

What is it about Brad?.............

You could write an eBook and make a fortune!

Kindness, stability, and the fact that I can dress myself she says.

I think women in Moscow and St. Petersburg probably are not so anxious to leave their homeland and also have nice flats, jobs, cars, etc. I dated such a woman for about a year each. I even met her in the Dominican Republic for two weeks. She paid her own airfare. It was a great fling but ultimately she chose to keep her life in Russia. We parted friends...and she was superb. There is, however, a competition issue. Must of the online dating or more localized personal servcie match-makers focus on the big city girls...who wants to send naive, unprepared American men into the harshness of Siberia? Not a limo in sight. English speakers a rarity. So, teh city girls have it good...lots of guys heading their way. So the auction begins...who will make the highest offer?

My Msocow girlfriend did a poor job of hiding the fact that she had other suitors. One time she unhooked her hard line phone during my visit.

I think you Ukrainia-niks tend to stick with the bigger cities in the Ukraine, especially Kiev, for wife searching. So you will, certainly, encounter women who need to be persuaded and impressed and so forth. That can come off as noble or endearing...but what is it really? Looking for the best deal. No great deal, no immigration. The American men, in true style, suggest this is proof their women are looking for love. Love of what?

Not sure what would be the equivalent to Siberia in the Ukraine. I don't hear much from men who've gone off the beaten path to find a wife in the harsher regions of the Ukraine...so you all sing the same song about the choosy, well-off or comfortable women who will only marry for the love of a man. Never for AC and a nice car.

OK, try going into the deep, harsh interior and see if that profile changes.

A Ukraine woman from Kiev is very different from one living in the interior villages. You can't understand until you venture out there...where English is rarely spoken and you don't get a private driver...just a junker taxi or an ancient bus...or walk it. Life is harsh and women are anxious to leave...so you can expect high respect, gratitude, and cooperation in moving forward in a relationship. Rather than wining and dining and hoping she picks YOU.

A judge lot of American men hide, deny and repress the truth that the term, "Mail Order Bride" is not that far off the mark to save face and to fabricate a relationship that is advertised as love when it may well be for other reasons. The fat, bald guy who gets the beautiful, gorgeous younger wife is not far fetched. But you will not likely find that sort of possibility these days unless you go pioneer. Take the road less travelled. Or, get a cushy overseas job and YOU are in the drivers seat...as with Gary. Gary is not the typical, internet driven American wife shopper.

Good for him. The rest of us have to do it the hard and fast way.

I wasn't shopping for a wife, neither was Alla shopping for a husband. I didn't even meet her in a big city in Ukraine, it was a big city in CZ Republic, where we both were on business and met quite by chance, but I knew before the evening was over I had met my wife. That after...OK, I do not know how many, Ukrainian women from cities and villages. Some were dinner dates, some were long term, but no one I wanted to marry. Alla was the last. I also "ventured" into villages, as you say. And met many women from villages in Odessa, it is a pretty popular destination in the FSU. We have friends in villages and it was I who suggested your wife was from one. I know the type. I did not choose Alla because she is from a big city (not Kiev, in fact I never dated a woman from Kiev unless you count one night dinner dates and chance meetings while visiting Kiev on business) and my longest "relationship" was a semi-serious one of over one year with a very nice woman from a village outside Cherkassy, hardly a big city. She spoke little English and lived in a tiny house with her 10 year old son, and I helped her plant her garden in crappy soil and she didn't grow a garden for a hobby. If you think my "cushy job" kept me insulated from the differences in village and city life...you would be very wrong. Also you cannot even compare women from Kiev with women from Donetsk, Odessa, Dniepropetrovsk, or even Kharkov. Moscow and St Petersburg are nothing like Rostov or Volgograd or Tula. No more than you can compare women in NYC to women in Atlanta or Dallas...and certainly not Ardmore, Okla. or Winters, TX.

In fact I relieved my driver of driving me to work and took the bus every day like everyone else. He was also my interpreter and he met me at the job, wherever it was. We travelled by train and bus together when we needed to. I kept my mouth shut about taking the bus so he could continue to collect his pay for driving me...such that is was, but actually better than most people. Partially because I desired to live like everyone else...OK, not working for $300 per month, but other than that, and because I felt it caused some animosity with other people with whom I worked. I had it bad enough that they were insulted because I didn't drink alcohol, but we worked that out. I took buses and trains to "nowhere" on weekends and spent many nights in villages just to see what the country was like, just to explore. I bought a ticket, took a small duffle bag and got off the train wherever something looked interesting and found a place to stay. I also took long weekends or holidays to other cities outside Ukraine, in addition to my work travels. I found the good beaches (NOT by Odessa), the interesting villages, the buried history. It was, hands down, the greatest adventure I could imagine. I lived very much like a Ukrainian but one that had enough money to travel around, which not many do. My wife has a master's in Russian Philology and Literature, so she is able to pass on a bit of information herself. I was there before, during and after the Orange Revolution, before we could visit without visas. Before there was a US consulate.

I really didn't care if women had other suitors or if they concealed it or not. I never asked. If something were to develop then I do not care how many losers she had to go through to get to me. I guess I would rather be chosen from a larger field, FWIW.

At no time was I "looking for a wife" but I do not fault people who do. and if you are looking for a wife, I can highly recommend Ukraine and Russia. I do not fault people who do it the "fast way" but that does not an expert on Ukraine make. In fact, my landlord in Odessa, an Aussie who had a real estate business, also owned a marriage agency and often encourage me to date "his girls" but I never did, there was just too many others around and, as I said, I was not looking for a wife, so why waste the time of women obviously looking for a husband? I do not claim to be an expert. I know WAY too much to even think that. Ukraine is way too complex for even an average Ukrainian to understand all the differences in different parts of the country, and yes, in many areas people are hostile to Russians and Russian language. Most people really don't care and just try to make a life as best they can for their families...big surprise. People who think that they are experts do not even know what they don't know.

I do not care if someone marries a MOB, none of my concern. If they are happy, then thank God for the internet! If they are not...oh well, they could be unhappy with a girl they met at church also, so what? I didn't even know about mail order brides or that Ukraine was packed full of drop dead gorgeous women and it says a lot about Alla that she could snap-turn my head after two years in Ukraine. She still does. I arrived a total "babe in the woods" and felt like a kid in a candy store before I was picked up by my driver at the Odessa airport! I was completley bewildered and wondered exactly how long the flight had been and if we were on the same planet!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

PS, I know there is no such thing as mail order brides, I use the term as an oft repeated phrase. I do not consider HOW people initially meet as particularly important.

[groovlstk 0]

I think women in Moscow and St. Petersburg probably are not so anxious to leave their homeland and also have nice flats, jobs, cars, etc.

This is absolutely true and something I took as a positive. My wife is originally from Moscow and when we were dating we were able to do so as equals.

[visaveteran 1]

They were merged because the Belarus and Ukraine people hung out here all the time anyway, so the change was requested to reflect the true makeup of the Forum Formerly Known As the Russia Forum.

I see. No problem for me. I am never one to crash a party and I see that Visa Veteran is correct on this point, at least in this forum.

When I asked Ewok to change the forum name to include Belarus and Ukraine, it was for both of the reasons stated above. I thought that (after asking for feedback from the community here) that there were enough cultural similarities amongst those three countries that there should be a change in the forum to reflect that affinity. Since most VJ members with Eastern European SOs used this as their home forum anyway it seemed appropriate to make it official.

Now, (sort of). My wife falls somewhere between the two described above. She wears her ring on the left, because (her words) she married an American, and wants to conform in some ways to the culture she lives in. Because she isn't working now, she does most of the cooking, and I definitely eat better and healthier than I ever did before - including loads of fish and soup. Because I finally have her convinced that she looks great without makeup too, she sometimes goes without it, and will wear less most days (unless we are meeting other Eastern Europeans - they always get the full treatment). She wears jeans and casual clothes most of the time because I do.I pay a service to do the serious cleaning, and Vika definitely does not dress me, nor do I want that.

If I follow your logic in merging the RUB, then why not include all FSU countries under one forum? Why only the three? As for the Ukraine, the country is very different than Russia. You don't need visas to go there and it has become a different society. But the Crimea area is more pro Russian, while other areas are not. It's very hard to lump the country into a category. Maybe it should stand alone?

I always encourage my wife to use make-up and dress nicely because it is her way and I like the energy she puts into looking great. My wife is truly beautiful and could easily walk around without make-up and nice clothes and still turn heads, but I want the American women to see what a feminine, classic beauty looks like..because i think they've forgotten...and the men too. If men what to downgrade their wives intentions to look great, so be it. But it is only following the tenets of the feminists, who despise old school beauty.

I love my wife to dress me...nothing quite like it. Unless it is to be "undressed." I deserve it. And the more she treats me like a king, the more I act like one.

You really should stick to your sermons on Russia based on your 6 visits to Russia before commenting on Ukraine. Ukraine is heavily influenced by Russian culture far beyond the Crimea, 93% Russian in Donetsk Oblast, 84% in Odessa Oblast, 87% in Kharkov Oblast. There are some differences but I do not like to deal in broad generalities. If I did I would say Ukrainian women are milder tempered and cleaner. But how can I judge after meeting, living with and working with only a few thousand every day?

One thing is certain. I do not need to encourage my wife to wear make-up, she devotes herself to her family and husband and I put my own socks on. To try and say all Russian or Ukrainian women are the same is a fool's errand. Yes, they have generalities, yes they have different ideas about male and female roles, yes they are more beautiful (percentage speaking) and despite my jokes of Dr. Finetush's secret laboratory in the Caucasus Mountians, they are individuals all. I can give you a list very long of Ukrainian women I did not want to marry! I can slso say that after living there, no American woman could interest me at all. Being American is a deal breaker for me.

Again, I do not like to generalize. If I did, I would say your wife is from a small village. There is a far bigger difference in culture between city and village people in Ukraine and Russia than even between the countries or even between THIS country and thiers. Alla is from a big city, worked in big cities all over the FSU (in fact was a representative for a large Moscow based firm, so it seems they thought this Ukrainian woman was worthy of representing them for millions in business every year...imagine that!) Her lifestyle changed very little when moving here. No more so than an American moving from a big city to a rural island, Our flat in Donetsk is pretty much furnished like our house in Vermont, no big surprise...same decorator.

I'll own I know very little about the Ukraine from personal experience. All of my views of that country are from talking with Russians, American men who have talked about their experiences there, and what I've read. I was warned early on in my research into finding a Russian bride that the Ukraine was the female scam capital of eastern Europe. I also heard much of the country is radioactive from Chernobyl, so I lost interest. The nuclear issue would be enough for me to avoid it and I would not want my family to spend too much time there. The same is true for Belarus and parts of western Russia. And, in fact, a reason I would never want my children or wife to spend too much time in any of those countries. And a great reason to never consider living or spending long periods of time in that whole RUB area. I don't want to find my wife glowing in the dark when I come to bed.

I think it is a fair statement to say there is some pretty serious anti-Russian sentiment in parts of the Ukraine, and people from Russian feel superior to Ukrainians. That could be a defining difference in the two countries. Not really a mutual admiration society. Another reason I think combining them in one forum is odd.

I'd love to know how you determined Ukraine women are cleaner. Maybe you could elaborate? This could be very interesting. Underwear check? Soap sales?

I do agree that city women are different than village women...and not necessarily in a positive way...this feeling coming from personal experience. I wanted a woman who REALLY wanted to live in the USA and would be giving up little by leaving her native land. That scenario seemed best for long term success.

We totally agree on American women. Amen.

I cannot tell you if it is a scam capital. I never used an online service. Not that I am making any judgements, I don't. But the internet is the place where the scams occur and I never met a woman, American or Ukrainian by way of the internet. I will say that the vast majority of Ukrainian women are very sincere. I would suspect the majority of scams are pulled by men posing as women. Again, I have -0- experience with the internet. I had hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian women outside my door (and a smaller number inside my door) and had no need for the internet services. I did meet and date a few that were clearly looking for a good night out, a nice dinner, drinks, etc. on the guy. we they scamming me? maybe. Who cares? I had a good time to. As you can imagine (if you know ANYTHING about Ukraine or Russia) it was no problem for a decent looking mid-40s guy from the USA with a US salary, overseas bonus and living expenses paid in a very nice downtown flat...plus a private driver, to meet and date women. How many? In a week? A month? Any day I wanted.

Again I do not like generalizations. I noted that only if forced would I make such comparisons. I have been to many dozens of people's personal homes in Ukraine and Russia, maybe more than a hundred. Who counts? I still have many good friends there and we correspond daily with at least a few of them. They are very social and very hospitable people in my experience and I was forever being invited to one person's flat or another. Every Ukrainian flat I was ever in was spotlessly clean (quite in contrast to the exterior to be sure...even suprisingly so) and all the Russian flats I was in were considerably less so. That is what I meant by clean. I never noticed any difference in underwear checks and I wasn't referring to personal hygiene to which I have no complaints about either. Underwear is equally clean. In my experience Ukrainian homes are quite a bit cleaner. If I didn't know her culture I would think Alla is borderline OC about cleaning...not that I complain, nothing wrong with a spotless home. I suppose if I went to several dozen more Russian homes maybe the poll could swing, maybe not. I also have enough experience with enough women and men (in everyday life) to form the opinion that Russians seem more hot tempered than Ukrainians, but my experience is limited to mostly city people. Our son, who has now spent 3 years in a university in Moscow, with 2 more to go, has said, definitely, he is going for a Ukrainian wife. I can't fault his taste.

As far as village women and city women, yes a village girl from Russia or Ukraine is going to be much more happy in America, or more easily happy. Things like indoor kitchens, private bathtubs and toilets for only one family are very appealing if you never had them. Reliable electricty, drinkable water and heat round out the benefits. AC? What is that? OMG! On the other hand, my wife is not with me because she saw it as a way to improve her lot in life. We could live just as easily in Donetsk and miss very little in creature comforts. In fact she was doing very well before and certainly didn't "need" me or any other man and she has enough cash stashed around to buy a plane ticket to Kiev any time she wants. If she is there when I get home, or drives herself home from wherever she was today...it is by her choice. She could just as easily abandon her own car at JFK and be in Kiev in the morning. A train to our flat in Donetsk, and she would be sleeping on comfy sheets again.

The following Ukraine cities have above normal scam problems: Brovary, Kharkov, Kupyansk, Sevastopol. And, btw, scams can often take place in nice hotels and bars. Not limited to the internet these days.

[visaveteran 1]

I think women in Moscow and St. Petersburg probably are not so anxious to leave their homeland and also have nice flats, jobs, cars, etc.

This is absolutely true and something I took as a positive. My wife is originally from Moscow and when we were dating we were able to do so as equals.

Dating as equals? Why do so many FSU women post their profiles to internet sites in the USA? Why do so many American men spend a small fortune and all the grief of travel to meet a FSU women? The two sides see opportunities they can not easily find in their home countries. They have something we want. We have something they want. That is the starting point for many of these relationships.

[visaveteran 1]

I think women in Moscow and St. Petersburg probably are not so anxious to leave their homeland and also have nice flats, jobs, cars, etc. I dated such a woman for about a year each. I even met her in the Dominican Republic for two weeks. She paid her own airfare. It was a great fling but ultimately she chose to keep her life in Russia. We parted friends...and she was superb. There is, however, a competition issue. Must of the online dating or more localized personal servcie match-makers focus on the big city girls...who wants to send naive, unprepared American men into the harshness of Siberia? Not a limo in sight. English speakers a rarity. So, teh city girls have it good...lots of guys heading their way. So the auction begins...who will make the highest offer?

My Msocow girlfriend did a poor job of hiding the fact that she had other suitors. One time she unhooked her hard line phone during my visit.

I think you Ukrainia-niks tend to stick with the bigger cities in the Ukraine, especially Kiev, for wife searching. So you will, certainly, encounter women who need to be persuaded and impressed and so forth. That can come off as noble or endearing...but what is it really? Looking for the best deal. No great deal, no immigration. The American men, in true style, suggest this is proof their women are looking for love. Love of what?

Not sure what would be the equivalent to Siberia in the Ukraine. I don't hear much from men who've gone off the beaten path to find a wife in the harsher regions of the Ukraine...so you all sing the same song about the choosy, well-off or comfortable women who will only marry for the love of a man. Never for AC and a nice car.

OK, try going into the deep, harsh interior and see if that profile changes.

A Ukraine woman from Kiev is very different from one living in the interior villages. You can't understand until you venture out there...where English is rarely spoken and you don't get a private driver...just a junker taxi or an ancient bus...or walk it. Life is harsh and women are anxious to leave...so you can expect high respect, gratitude, and cooperation in moving forward in a relationship. Rather than wining and dining and hoping she picks YOU.

A judge lot of American men hide, deny and repress the truth that the term, "Mail Order Bride" is not that far off the mark to save face and to fabricate a relationship that is advertised as love when it may well be for other reasons. The fat, bald guy who gets the beautiful, gorgeous younger wife is not far fetched. But you will not likely find that sort of possibility these days unless you go pioneer. Take the road less travelled. Or, get a cushy overseas job and YOU are in the drivers seat...as with Gary. Gary is not the typical, internet driven American wife shopper.

Good for him. The rest of us have to do it the hard and fast way.

In general I would say these generalizations are just generalizations. One can not make such categorical statements as absolute truths.

When I was doing my online dating thing a year ago, a lady from Siberia and another from Kazak were far from desperate (even though they did admit their life was not a city life). Another who lives in the Urals is a well educated and noble lass. The most desparate to improve her living conditions lived in Kiev!

There is no such thing as a MOB, that's illegal. Many men, though, have no idea or the skills it takes to engage in an international relationship. I am certain this is more the fault (?) of the men rather than the women. There are many many very real women who would like to improve their relationship lives if not also their personal lives and they live in all countries, including here in the US.

However if you believe everything you read, then you will fall into the trap. (All of Ukraine is radioactive?)

Here's small data for you to digest: The radioactive plume drifted over large parts of the western Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and Northern Europe, with some nuclear rain falling as far away as Ireland. Large areas in Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia were badly contaminated, resulting in the evacuation and resettlement of over 336,000 people.

[baron555 934]

They have something we want. We have something they want. That is the starting point for many of these relationships.

That's usually how ALL relationships start and continue. You both have something to offer the other.

Edited November 17, 2009 by baron555

[groovlstk 0]

Not sure if your questions are rhetorical, but I'll answer as honestly as I can based on my experiences.

Dating as equals?

Yes, as in she didn't see me as a ticket to the land of milk and honey, and I didn't see her as someone desperate to escape a hard life.

Why do so many FSU women post their profiles to internet sites in the USA?

I didn't meet my wife through a marriage agency or dating site, but I'd say there are a myriad of reasons, many of which (both good and bad) can be boiled down to simple economics.

Why do so many American men spend a small fortune and all the grief of travel to meet a FSU women?

Same answer: I'd say there are a myriad of reasons, many of which (both good and bad) can be boiled down to simple economics.

[baron555 934]

Dating as equals?

One would hope so.

Why do so many FSU women post their profiles to internet sites in the USA?

Usually because what they seek they can not find in their own countries.

Why do so many American men spend a small fortune and all the grief of travel to meet a FSU women?

Ah Ha.....you are doing too much reading again. Stop believing everything these websites are telling you. There are not that many men doing this; it is well known that less than 5% of the men corresponding with the women actually do get onto a plane. Ask the women, they will tell you. The websites will make you believe there are millions of men jetting on over but that is just not the case. Very few do and on top of that very few will actually become couples.

The two sides see opportunities they can not easily find in their home countries. They have something we want. We have something they want. That is the starting point for many of these relationships.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Dating as equals?

One would hope so.

Why do so many FSU women post their profiles to internet sites in the USA?

Usually because what they seek they can not find in their own countries.

Why do so many American men spend a small fortune and all the grief of travel to meet a FSU women?

Ah Ha.....you are doing too much reading again. Stop believing everything these websites are telling you. There are not that many men doing this; it is well known that less than 5% of the men corresponding with the women actually do get onto a plane. Ask the women, they will tell you. The websites will make you believe there are millions of men jetting on over but that is just not the case. Very few do and on top of that very few will actually become couples.

The two sides see opportunities they can not easily find in their home countries. They have something we want. We have something they want. That is the starting point for many of these relationships.

I suspect Baron is correct. I have -0- experience except my landlord operated a marriage agency and he had no great number of American men flying over to meet "his girls". In fact he has since shut down the agency. In 2008 he had exactly ONE American come to visit. I suspect the economy had a lot to do with this also, but there is no great number of men, or for that matter, women using these agencies, at least not percentage wise. I never met anyone in Ukraine that seemed to be desparate to go to the United States or even any that had given it any thought. If there are 100,000 women using agencies, it is something like 3/10ths of 1%. About 1 in 84,000 women.

I DID know two women that wrote letters for women using marriage agencies and they freely admitted they "embellished" the letters, just because the "girls were shy", so...OK beware of that, though I think it falls short of a scam. I heard of a few scams being busted in Ukraine and have since then, all of them I heard of were men using internet cafe's to pose as women. After a couple emails, they announce their love for the American they are corresponding with and ask for money for a plane ticket and visa. Sincere Ukrainian women do not ask for money.

Ukraine is not considered a high fraud country and has one of the easiest consulates to deal with. These scams never get to the consulate stage...obviously...so they go un-noticed by USCIS or consulates.

Ukrainian women do not fall in love in three emails, they do not want to leave their country where they were born and raised after a few emails and they do not ask for money from strangers. Any US man handing over cash to a woman he does not know fits the old saying "a fool and his money are soon parted". Whether he meets her in a hotel or the internet. I have little sympathy for him.

[*JG* 2]

I was hesitant to open this topic, but today I am bored and decided to post my question for public opinion. This question is mainly for USC men with a fiancee from the FSU. But others can chime in too, if they feel like it.

I have probably slept in more hotels than a "hoe" in the past years (notice that I said HOTELS and not BEDS). Because of that, I have got used to letting the maid do her job, while I do mine. That is why I find it odd and even annoying when my Russian fiancee chooses to make the bed at every hotel we have stayed, even after I tell her not to do it.

Am I insensitive for telling my fiancee not to help the maid? Of particular concern to me is that the maid will choose not to change the sheets after seeing that the bed is already made. But no matter how I tell my fiancee, she chooses to ignore my pleas (most of the time). Will she get spoiled (and hence stop doing it even at home) if I interfere?

Just curious to know how you guys have dealt with behavior you find odd (or simply, unexpected).

Well, I didn't have to tell my wife twice to not make the bed in a hotel room. Never really been a problem. Whether or not she will get spoiled is more psychological and not really a culture question in my opinion.

One thing I have noticed about people from the FSU is that they have a much smaller reliance on refrigerators than we do, to put it nicely. I haven't tried to explain why putting stuff in the refrigerator makes it last longer. I just do it myself.

That is actually a multi-country thing. I think we just trust refrigeration more.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Dating as equals?

One would hope so.

Why do so many FSU women post their profiles to internet sites in the USA?

Usually because what they seek they can not find in their own countries.

Why do so many American men spend a small fortune and all the grief of travel to meet a FSU women?

Ah Ha.....you are doing too much reading again. Stop believing everything these websites are telling you. There are not that many men doing this; it is well known that less than 5% of the men corresponding with the women actually do get onto a plane. Ask the women, they will tell you. The websites will make you believe there are millions of men jetting on over but that is just not the case. Very few do and on top of that very few will actually become couples.

The two sides see opportunities they can not easily find in their home countries. They have something we want. We have something they want. That is the starting point for many of these relationships.

I also think, in my experience, women in the FSU will put up with a lot more than their American sisters and do what they need to and not complain. Some, not a great percentage, are willing to check out what is overseas. If they seek a happy family, a good man, they will go where they find him. They are opportunity makers, if need be. But there is no huge percentage of them anyway, I would guess, if I had to, there are less Ukrainian woemn using internet "meeting sites" than American women that do the same. Though they are more likely than Americans to look overseas.

Certainly I know Phil's Alla has done this and made a life for herself in Moscow and not a bad one at that! She is no shrinking violet and not afraid to get out there and make her own doors to knock on...or kick down! Alla says..."Oh, her husband is in for it...she is JUST like me!" May you be so lucky Phil. My Alla is similarly fearless about anything new. She will MAKE it work. I don't blame women for looking elsewhere and Russian and Ukrainian men, amoung them some of my best freinds, are not the best family men and husband's in the world, as a whole. Between alcoholism and hundreds of thousands of beautiful available women around...faithfulness and stability are not their forte. Something Russian/Ukrainian value.

[visaveteran 1]

Dating as equals?

One would hope so.

Why do so many FSU women post their profiles to internet sites in the USA?

Usually because what they seek they can not find in their own countries.

Why do so many American men spend a small fortune and all the grief of travel to meet a FSU women?

Ah Ha.....you are doing too much reading again. Stop believing everything these websites are telling you. There are not that many men doing this; it is well known that less than 5% of the men corresponding with the women actually do get onto a plane. Ask the women, they will tell you. The websites will make you believe there are millions of men jetting on over but that is just not the case. Very few do and on top of that very few will actually become couples.

The two sides see opportunities they can not easily find in their home countries. They have something we want. We have something they want. That is the starting point for many of these relationships.

Here' an interesting article from Pravda:

American men use Russian women for self-affirmation. The latter seem to be liking this fact.

Marriages between Russian women and American men are very successful and harmonious, Olga Makhovskaya, the senior research assistant at the Psychology Institute in Russia's Academy of Sciences says. When an American man switches from the model of American family where husband and wife are partners equal in rights to the model of an Orthodox family, he thus raises his own significance. In Orthodox families men are given more authority and are more respected. It is certainly an advantage for a man and raises his social and psychological status. In a word, American men seem to have tired of the feminism propagated by American women, and it is frequent that they seek Russian women to start families.

Russian wives in America give up the traditional model of the Russian Orthodox family which relieves them of a heavy burden of responsibility and gives a chance to have a normal life in a family where the range of responsibilities is more definite for them: children, family affairs and housekeeping. At that, Russian women enjoy more attention and support from husbands.

As psychologists say, now Russian men undervalue the essence of family. The whole of the burden, housekeeping, upbringing of children, earning of money are shifted onto women. And, at the time when Russian women have so much responsibilities, their husbands spend their time dozing in front of TV sets in desperate attempts to find out the meaning of life and to understand the truth of the universe. They merely disregard everyday problems that are essential for their families as they consider the above mentioned idle thinking to be of higher importance.

That is why, as Olga Makhovskaya thinks relations in families between Russian and American partners are more harmonious. Each party gets what it wants to have. Husbands get authority and status, and wives are given, in exchange, peace in family and well-being. "Families of this kind where husbands are Americans and women are Russians prove to be long-living, as the roles in the family are clearly distributed and the mechanism operates good, although these are mixed families. In such families each of the couple is ready to make concessions and on the whole, wonderfully performs the role."

In addition, as researches held by Olga Makhovskaya reveal, marriages between Chinese men and Russian women are also very successful. “There are tens of thousands of such marriages in Russia's Primorye region in the Far East. Chinese men are hard-working, they don't abuse in alcohol drinking and bring their wages home. In a word, they have lots of advantages by contrast with Russian men." It is sad, but the researches don't mention for whom Russian men suit wonderfully.

Olga Blagodarova

The Tatarstan Izvestia newspaper

[Mishkanna 0]

Ok peopeles i read all that and wondering, is there any russian woman in that talks involved? As i can see - NO. So let me be the voice of russian woman, cuz i am russian woman. You should be happy that your wifes or g/f have a habbits like that, you just dont know how lucky you are. Just imagine that - we all childrens of time when Soviet Union fall and Democracy didnt come in our world yet. There was no food in shops, there was no normal clothes, there was no normal plastic bags even. Just put yourself in our shoes guys, thats all, when you live half of your life in place where you need to eat only potato or BORSH for a week you start to collect everything what you have "Just in case". So give us a break guys and just let us get use to a new life. Oh and what about taking shower befor bed and wash hands and feets it is just a question of beeing clean and smell good and i dont think that take a shower after long day will make someone feel bad... Oh one more thing why we do the beds in hotel SINCE WE BEEN A LITTLE GIRLS THAT IS WHAT OUR MOMS TELL US TO DO AND IT BECOME SAME AS BRUSH YOUR TEETH IN MORNING. Hard to loose habbit in a one day, and dont worry about spoil woman, as much as i can see that is a husband job to spoil his wife! Isnt it??

P.S. Sorry if i miss spell any words.