Behavior you (USC man) find odd

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think you are being an ...

Oh well. Next year Alla will be teaching your children to speak English in school and wearing her wedding ring on her right hand while doing it.

She didn't change her name because it is isn't Russian tradition and I have no insecurities about placing my name on all my property. I know she is mine because she has enough resources to leave anytime she wants and she is still here. It seems you pick and choose what ways are charmong and quaint. I suppose you might be different if your wife "assimilated" by telling you to put your own damn socks on and wash them too! And have sex twice a month instead of twice a day! Then she would be just like an American wife and you would be overjoyed. Maybe ditch the high heels and stockings...go for pantyhose (HORRORS!) and tennis shoes? Who needs all that make-up? To look good for who? I mean heck, she's done caught that bus, why keep running?" Maybe put on a few kilos (oops, pounds) and grow a pair of thunder-bumpers. Then squeeze them into some spandex pants over her granny panties. Yessir...now we are assimilating! Microwave your TV dinner for you when you get home and let you dig for your clothes in the hamper. Oh Baby, we are fully into new traditions now. And you worry about bumper stickers. Good grief.

Not true. Plenty of Russian women change their last name after marriage.

Also, just out of curiousity, VV, why do you need your wife to dress you?????? If you have some sort of physical disability that prevents you from putting on your own socks, that's understandable; otherwise, I am intrigued that for you, good wife=infantilization of husband.

Yes, it is true that many woemn in Russia and Ukraine do so now. It is not traditional in Russian history except among royals and such or big political figures whose wives wanted to make sure everyone knew who they were.

It is too bad visa veterans wife only brought her sub-servience with her and left behind her make-up, stockings, lace, and heels. I prefer to put on my own socks while I watch Alla pull on her stockings...but hey...glad you're happy.

You assume too much and speak as a man ignorant of traditional Russian ways. Maybe you've gotten one of the "new Russia" women? The authentic Russian woman has always honored her husband and happily been in service to him in a loving way...not as a slave. American men have long forgotten what it feels like to be the boss, to run the household, to be the leader, to protect and defend the family, and to have a wife who respects and follows him. I've seen men ruin a good Russian woman by surrendering what he has gained with a Russian wife by following the brainwashing that we're all equal and the same. The unisex utopia.

VV, you need to stop making assumptions from what you read in the mail order catalog, OK. I lived there and met Alla in the process of living and working in Ukraine, Russia and CZ Republic. I have had, shall we say, intimate education in women in Ukraine, the FSU and east Europe, starting about 30 seconds after I arrived in Odessa. We still own (free and clear) two flats in Donetsk. We also had a flat in Moscow but gave that up as we were not going there so much anymore. We go to Donetsk often enough and for enough time every year to make it worthwhile to keep the apartments there, my MIL lives in one of them. We have a son in his third year of university in Moscow. My wife is hardly a "new Russian woman" being middle aged (she will stab me in my sleep for telling that) though she doesn't look it. We have children older than some of the women being married on K-1s right now and was raised and raised children in the Soviet Union...before it went away.

I know all about my role and hers, no problems here in that regard.

She is free to keep all her Russian traditions (She IS Russian, despite being born in east Ukraine and if you have ever been to Donetsk Oblast, I doubt it, you will know what I am talking about) These things are what endears me to her and I pray she never changes a bit...so far, so good. I put my own socks on.

[visaveteran 1]

I think you are being an ...

Oh well. Next year Alla will be teaching your children to speak English in school and wearing her wedding ring on her right hand while doing it.

She didn't change her name because it is isn't Russian tradition and I have no insecurities about placing my name on all my property. I know she is mine because she has enough resources to leave anytime she wants and she is still here. It seems you pick and choose what ways are charmong and quaint. I suppose you might be different if your wife "assimilated" by telling you to put your own damn socks on and wash them too! And have sex twice a month instead of twice a day! Then she would be just like an American wife and you would be overjoyed. Maybe ditch the high heels and stockings...go for pantyhose (HORRORS!) and tennis shoes? Who needs all that make-up? To look good for who? I mean heck, she's done caught that bus, why keep running?" Maybe put on a few kilos (oops, pounds) and grow a pair of thunder-bumpers. Then squeeze them into some spandex pants over her granny panties. Yessir...now we are assimilating! Microwave your TV dinner for you when you get home and let you dig for your clothes in the hamper. Oh Baby, we are fully into new traditions now. And you worry about bumper stickers. Good grief.

Not true. Plenty of Russian women change their last name after marriage.

Also, just out of curiousity, VV, why do you need your wife to dress you?????? If you have some sort of physical disability that prevents you from putting on your own socks, that's understandable; otherwise, I am intrigued that for you, good wife=infantilization of husband.

Yes, it is true that many woemn in Russia and Ukraine do so now. It is not traditional in Russian history except among royals and such or big political figures whose wives wanted to make sure everyone knew who they were.

It is too bad visa veterans wife only brought her sub-servience with her and left behind her make-up, stockings, lace, and heels. I prefer to put on my own socks while I watch Alla pull on her stockings...but hey...glad you're happy.

You assume too much and speak as a man ignorant of traditional Russian ways. Maybe you've gotten one of the "new Russia" women? The authentic Russian woman has always honored her husband and happily been in service to him in a loving way...not as a slave. American men have long forgotten what it feels like to be the boss, to run the household, to be the leader, to protect and defend the family, and to have a wife who respects and follows him. I've seen men ruin a good Russian woman by surrendering what he has gained with a Russian wife by following the brainwashing that we're all equal and the same. The unisex utopia.

VV, you need to stop making assumptions from what you read in the mail order catalog, OK. I lived there and met Alla in the process of living and working in Ukraine, Russia and CZ Republic. I have had, shall we say, intimate education in women in Ukraine, the FSU and east Europe, starting about 30 seconds after I arrived in Odessa. We still own (free and clear) two flats in Donetsk. We also had a flat in Moscow but gave that up as we were not going there so much anymore. We go to Donetsk often enough and for enough time every year to make it worthwhile to keep the apartments there, my MIL lives in one of them. We have a son in his third year of university in Moscow. My wife is hardly a "new Russian woman" being middle aged (she will stab me in my sleep for telling that) though she doesn't look it. We have children older than some of the women being married on K-1s right now and was raised and raised children in the Soviet Union...before it went away.

I know all about my role and hers, no problems here in that regard.

She is free to keep all her Russian traditions (She IS Russian, despite being born in east Ukraine and if you have ever been to Donetsk Oblast, I doubt it, you will know what I am talking about) These things are what endears me to her and I pray she never changes a bit...so far, so good. I put my own socks on.

My comments are based on having relationships with a number of different Russian women from Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Denmark and the USA. I've visited the FSU six times and have clocked about 8 months on the ground in the FSU. Maybe I'm not in your league but I've been around enough to know more than the average Joe.

I do know one thing...Russian women don't see Ukrainian women as their sisters. The cultures and attitudes are different. So maybe we're dealing with "apples and oranges."

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think you are being an ...

Oh well. Next year Alla will be teaching your children to speak English in school and wearing her wedding ring on her right hand while doing it.

She didn't change her name because it is isn't Russian tradition and I have no insecurities about placing my name on all my property. I know she is mine because she has enough resources to leave anytime she wants and she is still here. It seems you pick and choose what ways are charmong and quaint. I suppose you might be different if your wife "assimilated" by telling you to put your own damn socks on and wash them too! And have sex twice a month instead of twice a day! Then she would be just like an American wife and you would be overjoyed. Maybe ditch the high heels and stockings...go for pantyhose (HORRORS!) and tennis shoes? Who needs all that make-up? To look good for who? I mean heck, she's done caught that bus, why keep running?" Maybe put on a few kilos (oops, pounds) and grow a pair of thunder-bumpers. Then squeeze them into some spandex pants over her granny panties. Yessir...now we are assimilating! Microwave your TV dinner for you when you get home and let you dig for your clothes in the hamper. Oh Baby, we are fully into new traditions now. And you worry about bumper stickers. Good grief.

Not true. Plenty of Russian women change their last name after marriage.

Also, just out of curiousity, VV, why do you need your wife to dress you?????? If you have some sort of physical disability that prevents you from putting on your own socks, that's understandable; otherwise, I am intrigued that for you, good wife=infantilization of husband.

Yes, it is true that many woemn in Russia and Ukraine do so now. It is not traditional in Russian history except among royals and such or big political figures whose wives wanted to make sure everyone knew who they were.

It is too bad visa veterans wife only brought her sub-servience with her and left behind her make-up, stockings, lace, and heels. I prefer to put on my own socks while I watch Alla pull on her stockings...but hey...glad you're happy.

You assume too much and speak as a man ignorant of traditional Russian ways. Maybe you've gotten one of the "new Russia" women? The authentic Russian woman has always honored her husband and happily been in service to him in a loving way...not as a slave. American men have long forgotten what it feels like to be the boss, to run the household, to be the leader, to protect and defend the family, and to have a wife who respects and follows him. I've seen men ruin a good Russian woman by surrendering what he has gained with a Russian wife by following the brainwashing that we're all equal and the same. The unisex utopia.

VV, you need to stop making assumptions from what you read in the mail order catalog, OK. I lived there and met Alla in the process of living and working in Ukraine, Russia and CZ Republic. I have had, shall we say, intimate education in women in Ukraine, the FSU and east Europe, starting about 30 seconds after I arrived in Odessa. We still own (free and clear) two flats in Donetsk. We also had a flat in Moscow but gave that up as we were not going there so much anymore. We go to Donetsk often enough and for enough time every year to make it worthwhile to keep the apartments there, my MIL lives in one of them. We have a son in his third year of university in Moscow. My wife is hardly a "new Russian woman" being middle aged (she will stab me in my sleep for telling that) though she doesn't look it. We have children older than some of the women being married on K-1s right now and was raised and raised children in the Soviet Union...before it went away.

I know all about my role and hers, no problems here in that regard.

She is free to keep all her Russian traditions (She IS Russian, despite being born in east Ukraine and if you have ever been to Donetsk Oblast, I doubt it, you will know what I am talking about) These things are what endears me to her and I pray she never changes a bit...so far, so good. I put my own socks on.

My comments are based on having relationships with a number of different Russian women from Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Denmark and the USA. I've visited the FSU six times and have clocked about 8 months on the ground in the FSU. Maybe I'm not in your league but I've been around enough to know more than the average Joe.

I do know one thing...Russian women don't see Ukrainian women as their sisters. The cultures and attitudes are different. So maybe we're dealing with "apples and oranges."

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Tourist. Obviously we are dealing with something other than "apples and oranges"

The "average Joe" in the United States cannot name a country that begins with "U". I not care to be judged by that yardstick, thank you (Ask around if you don't believe me)

I am also aware of the complex Russian/Ukrainian relationship which spans back off and on for centuries and the fact that even within Russia there are different "layers" of culture, Moscow/St. Petersburg being at the top. So it is not so much that Russian women do not see Ukrainians as their sisters, some Russian women do not see other Russian women as their sisters, but with such limited experience it would be best not to make such statements if you do not understand the contexts. My only regret is that having been provided with a driver and interpreter during my work, and that Alla speaks excellent English and has since before I met her, I do not know the language as well as I would like to but enough that I know when Alla and her friends are bashing thier husbands...and let me clue you in...Russian and Ukrainian women bash men like no other women on earth...champion male bashers! But it is all in good fun.

As you see here, the cultures are similar enough that VJ members requested a merging of the sub-forum, that was not an accidental grouping of countries, it was requested by members before you came along. There is no difference in traditional male/female roles in the cultures. Ukrainian women are less inclined to use their "stingers" than their Russian sisters, but they indeed have them. Our sons have spent a considerable amount of time in both countries and say they will "get their wives in Ukraine" Who am I to argue?

[visaveteran 1]

Tourist. Obviously we are dealing with something other than "apples and oranges"

The "average Joe" in the United States cannot name a country that begins with "U". I not care to be judged by that yardstick, thank you (Ask around if you don't believe me)

I am also aware of the complex Russian/Ukrainian relationship which spans back off and on for centuries and the fact that even within Russia there are different "layers" of culture, Moscow/St. Petersburg being at the top. So it is not so much that Russian women do not see Ukrainians as their sisters, some Russian women do not see other Russian women as their sisters, but with such limited experience it would be best not to make such statements if you do not understand the contexts. My only regret is that having been provided with a driver and interpreter during my work, and that Alla speaks excellent English and has since before I met her, I do not know the language as well as I would like to but enough that I know when Alla and her friends are bashing thier husbands...and let me clue you in...Russian and Ukrainian women bash men like no other women on earth...champion male bashers! But it is all in good fun.

As you see here, the cultures are similar enough that VJ members requested a merging of the sub-forum, that was not an accidental grouping of countries, it was requested by members before you came along. There is no difference in traditional male/female roles in the cultures. Ukrainian women are less inclined to use their "stingers" than their Russian sisters, but they indeed have them. Our sons have spent a considerable amount of time in both countries and say they will "get their wives in Ukraine" Who am I to argue?

All of your statements are subjective and not very convincing and non verifiable. Anecdotes are interesting but of limited use in the search for facts. I hear you feel your higher up the food chain in understanding the sociological underpinnings of women from Russian the Ukraine and other Eastern Bloc countries. How many women have you been in relationship with from the FSU? For how long? From what countries?

I hate to have to drop down to basic high school logic to explain that I speak from the perspective of a RUB forum member, not from the entire USA. So, when I say Average Joe, I man from this RUB forum. I'm pretty sure some of use know countries that begin with "U."

The sisterhood issue is a matter of magnitude. I think there is some general agreement that the divide between Russian women and Ukrainian women is wider than between women living inside Russia (perhaps with the exception of Muslim women).

Personally, I think combining Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus into one forum was wrong and a decision of convenience, not commonality.

[TomT2566 1]

Getting back to the original topic, my fiancee asked me the other day why we have to plan so many things, instead of being more spontaneous, like "Russian people."

She had the reality check one day we were on the street and she proposed going somewhere else, like the theater, but I told her that we had to plan in advance because tickets were already sold out.

Why is it so difficult for "them" to think of a necessary plan, given that in the USA you pay a steep price if you live everyday without the proper plan?

clueless,

Perhaps you are the one who needs a reality check: you are in the process of marrying a Russian woman, not an American woman. If you expect an American mentality, you have been swimming in the wrong pool.

[eekee 182]

They were merged because the Belarus and Ukraine people hung out here all the time anyway, so the change was requested to reflect the true makeup of the Forum Formerly Known As the Russia Forum.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

<---- non-verifiable laughter

Actually I have never been to Russia or Ukraine. I don't even have a wife. and I refuse to bandy further words with a fool. The topic here was traits we find attractive in our wives (or in my case, non-wife) and your answer is that she puts your socks on because you don't allow any other Russian traits in your American household. Pity for you.

There is no need to answer as it is not verifiable that I really wrote this. I am sure for you it is easier to pretend it doesn't exist.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

They were merged because the Belarus and Ukraine people hung out here all the time anyway, so the change was requested to reflect the true makeup of the Forum Formerly Known As the Russia Forum.

I see. No problem for me. I am never one to crash a party and I see that Visa Veteran is correct on this point, at least in this forum.

[baron555 934]

You know some of the recent conversation is better suited for the forum over on Fiance.com; you'll find your brethren there.

We are men and women entering into, hopefully, a lifelong relationship. We ALL are unique and quirky depending on our background, our education, our experiences, our cultures, etc.

That uniqueness is one of the attractions. None is better than the other.

Marriage should be a team effort. It takes continuous work by both parties. Enough said.

[Brad and Vika 129]

They were merged because the Belarus and Ukraine people hung out here all the time anyway, so the change was requested to reflect the true makeup of the Forum Formerly Known As the Russia Forum.

I see. No problem for me. I am never one to crash a party and I see that Visa Veteran is correct on this point, at least in this forum.

When I asked Ewok to change the forum name to include Belarus and Ukraine, it was for both of the reasons stated above. I thought that (after asking for feedback from the community here) that there were enough cultural similarities amongst those three countries that there should be a change in the forum to reflect that affinity. Since most VJ members with Eastern European SOs used this as their home forum anyway it seemed appropriate to make it official.

Now, (sort of). My wife falls somewhere between the two described above. She wears her ring on the left, because (her words) she married an American, and wants to conform in some ways to the culture she lives in. Because she isn't working now, she does most of the cooking, and I definitely eat better and healthier than I ever did before - including loads of fish and soup. Because I finally have her convinced that she looks great without makeup too, she sometimes goes without it, and will wear less most days (unless we are meeting other Eastern Europeans - they always get the full treatment). She wears jeans and casual clothes most of the time because I do.I pay a service to do the serious cleaning, and Vika definitely does not dress me, nor do I want that.

[visaveteran 1]

They were merged because the Belarus and Ukraine people hung out here all the time anyway, so the change was requested to reflect the true makeup of the Forum Formerly Known As the Russia Forum.

I see. No problem for me. I am never one to crash a party and I see that Visa Veteran is correct on this point, at least in this forum.

When I asked Ewok to change the forum name to include Belarus and Ukraine, it was for both of the reasons stated above. I thought that (after asking for feedback from the community here) that there were enough cultural similarities amongst those three countries that there should be a change in the forum to reflect that affinity. Since most VJ members with Eastern European SOs used this as their home forum anyway it seemed appropriate to make it official.

Now, (sort of). My wife falls somewhere between the two described above. She wears her ring on the left, because (her words) she married an American, and wants to conform in some ways to the culture she lives in. Because she isn't working now, she does most of the cooking, and I definitely eat better and healthier than I ever did before - including loads of fish and soup. Because I finally have her convinced that she looks great without makeup too, she sometimes goes without it, and will wear less most days (unless we are meeting other Eastern Europeans - they always get the full treatment). She wears jeans and casual clothes most of the time because I do.I pay a service to do the serious cleaning, and Vika definitely does not dress me, nor do I want that.

If I follow your logic in merging the RUB, then why not include all FSU countries under one forum? Why only the three? As for the Ukraine, the country is very different than Russia. You don't need visas to go there and it has become a different society. But the Crimea area is more pro Russian, while other areas are not. It's very hard to lump the country into a category. Maybe it should stand alone?

I always encourage my wife to use make-up and dress nicely because it is her way and I like the energy she puts into looking great. My wife is truly beautiful and could easily walk around without make-up and nice clothes and still turn heads, but I want the American women to see what a feminine, classic beauty looks like..because i think they've forgotten...and the men too. If men what to downgrade their wives intentions to look great, so be it. But it is only following the tenets of the feminists, who despise old school beauty.

I love my wife to dress me...nothing quite like it. Unless it is to be "undressed." I deserve it. And the more she treats me like a king, the more I act like one.

[Brad and Vika 129]

They were merged because the Belarus and Ukraine people hung out here all the time anyway, so the change was requested to reflect the true makeup of the Forum Formerly Known As the Russia Forum.

I see. No problem for me. I am never one to crash a party and I see that Visa Veteran is correct on this point, at least in this forum.

When I asked Ewok to change the forum name to include Belarus and Ukraine, it was for both of the reasons stated above. I thought that (after asking for feedback from the community here) that there were enough cultural similarities amongst those three countries that there should be a change in the forum to reflect that affinity. Since most VJ members with Eastern European SOs used this as their home forum anyway it seemed appropriate to make it official.

Now, (sort of). My wife falls somewhere between the two described above. She wears her ring on the left, because (her words) she married an American, and wants to conform in some ways to the culture she lives in. Because she isn't working now, she does most of the cooking, and I definitely eat better and healthier than I ever did before - including loads of fish and soup. Because I finally have her convinced that she looks great without makeup too, she sometimes goes without it, and will wear less most days (unless we are meeting other Eastern Europeans - they always get the full treatment). She wears jeans and casual clothes most of the time because I do.I pay a service to do the serious cleaning, and Vika definitely does not dress me, nor do I want that.

If I follow your logic in merging the RUB, then why not include all FSU countries under one forum? Why only the three? As for the Ukraine, the country is very different than Russia. You don't need visas to go there and it has become a different society. But the Crimea area is more pro Russian, while other areas are not. It's very hard to lump the country into a category. Maybe it should stand alone?

I always encourage my wife to use make-up and dress nicely because it is her way and I like the energy she puts into looking great. My wife is truly beautiful and could easily walk around without make-up and nice clothes and still turn heads, but I want the American women to see what a feminine, classic beauty looks like..because i think they've forgotten...and the men too. If men what to downgrade their wives intentions to look great, so be it. But it is only following the tenets of the feminists, who despise old school beauty.

I love my wife to dress me...nothing quite like it. Unless it is to be "undressed." I deserve it. And the more she treats me like a king, the more I act like one.

No criticism intended at all. Clearly we all think we married the perfect woman (and maybe we did ). I actually did ask about other countries being included, but the majority of respondants were in favor of the three you see. I agree that the three countries do have some distinct differences, but there has been a longstanding historical (I mean pre-Soviet) relationship between the "three Russias" (big, small, and white). I suggested that the remaining CIS member, I think it is Kazakhstan should be included - but others didn't agree.

Generally I encourage my wife to dress the way she wants. That's it. With a few exceptions I couldn't care less what American women or any one else think about it. I will say that American women compliment her clothes, hair, etc. often - so apparently they do recognize beauty. Plenty of beautiful American women too, by the way.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Brad and Vika

[visaveteran 1]

If you look at most powerful females, either in business or as political figures, you'll find one common thing...they're all not very pretty. Judge Sotomayor, Hillary Clinton, Barbra Boxer, Nancy (Botox) Pelosi, Anita Dunne and on and on.

The one attractive well-known female politician is Sarah Palin and we see how she has been treated. I'm not a fan of Palin but I do think at least part of her problems stem from being a good looking woman. Women have been especially hostile towards her. I hypothesize that this has to do with feminism in America. Pretty equates to being a sex object for men. Pretty is demeaning to "true believers" of feminist belief systems. Pretty women are slaves to the patriarchy.

Even at lower levels of the social strata, you fine women who choose to use no make-up. No hair color. Masculine clothing. These are what mark the new feminist woman. And with women released from looking feminine and well dressed, I see young women like college students looking downright sloppy and shabby. It's the new look...worn out jeans, raggedy sweat pants and so forth. To make it worse we now have to look at tattoos and piercings. Not only do they look poorly but now also have a dark quality as well. They're confused about what it is to be female, and I can see why.

I've noticed that when I've taken my wife to friends homes the wives don't always treat her very well. Mostly it's subtle but I see it. It may be for various reasons but her beauty and dress are factors, I do believe. The women seem threatened.

The one reason I don't like mixing the various countries is I don't know about Kiev or places in Belarus...so conversations about them don't interest or help me. The embassies are different so I gain nothing from hearing about the ones in Kiev or Turkey. But, all in all, it's not a big deal.

[Brad and Vika 129]

If you look at most powerful females, either in business or as political figures, you'll find one common thing...they're all not very pretty. Judge Sotomayor, Hillary Clinton, Barbra Boxer, Nancy (Botox) Pelosi, Anita Dunne and on and on.

The one attractive well-known female politician is Sarah Palin and we see how she has been treated. I'm not a fan of Palin but I do think at least part of her problems stem from being a good looking woman. Women have been especially hostile towards her. I hypothesize that this has to do with feminism in America. Pretty equates to being a sex object for men. Pretty is demeaning to "true believers" of feminist belief systems. Pretty women are slaves to the patriarchy.

Even at lower levels of the social strata, you fine women who choose to use no make-up. No hair color. Masculine clothing. These are what mark the new feminist woman. And with women released from looking feminine and well dressed, I see young women like college students looking downright sloppy and shabby. It's the new look...worn out jeans, raggedy sweat pants and so forth. To make it worse we now have to look at tattoos and piercings. Not only do they look poorly but now also have a dark quality as well. They're confused about what it is to be female, and I can see why.

I've noticed that when I've taken my wife to friends homes the wives don't always treat her very well. Mostly it's subtle but I see it. It may be for various reasons but her beauty and dress are factors, I do believe. The women seem threatened.

The one reason I don't like mixing the various countries is I don't know about Kiev or places in Belarus...so conversations about them don't interest or help me. The embassies are different so I gain nothing from hearing about the ones in Kiev or Turkey. But, all in all, it's not a big deal.

Lots of us find the mix very useful though. There seem to be plenty of cultural similarities amongst our SOs, the much derided salty fish being one, and we share our experience and frustration with cultural differences to the benefit (and amusement) of all. I agree with the general comment about gender role confusion amongst men and women here, and I absolutely enjoy that the gender lines are bright in my relationship. Although there might, as you say, be some jealousy when you take your wife into mixed company, there might also be some bigotry towards foreigners generally, and left over commie-hating depending on the age of the group. I see some of that here.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Brad and Vika