Beating on school bus upsets parents

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Noone is denying the video, BY - or the reality that these kinds of things happen in schools (and more so in some areas than others).

What I find supremely distasteful BY, is that your conception of "that culture" seems to be based more on MTV rap artists than it is on real life.

You'd be hardpressed to find someone who would honestly deny that there are indeed underprivileged parts of this country where crime, violence and social dysfunction are commonplace.

This is something that people in this country have been trying for decades to address, but the simple fact is there are no easy or quick solutions - so as much as getting out the cane or bussing kids off to jail might seem like a genius to you, the reality is that none of these things will effect the change you want. You can't force people to behave, just as you can't force them out of poverty or dangerous lifestyles. Change has to come from within and without.

You missing the point and in particular Danno's point. You falsely assume that these kids are all from poor inner city ghetto communities. However, even in middle class neighborhoods, African American kids disproportionally represent a much higher portion of crimes. As such, this rules out the 'they're just underprivileged' excuse. I also pointed out myself, why is it that other ethnicities that are poor that come to America do not act in this manner either. This is not a blame game. This is about identifying issues in a community and addressing them. Same way if someone is going to study kids shooting up schools, their not going to waste their time studying African American kids because they don't lose their mind like Caucasian kids do.

The reason this issue is not addressed is because someone must walk on eggshells when discussing it. Rather than an extensive analysis to determine the problem, even suggesting such a study will almost definitely result in racism allegations. As such, the only thing we have left to do is simply jail people, once they commit a crime. Personally, I'd rather find the root of the problem and address it but that's just me.

You assume that a fight on a school bus justifies the broad claims you are making about society, it doesn't.

A person's socio-economic class doesn't automatically mean that children will be well-behaved in schools. As I said - this kind of thing happened in my school, and that wasn't an underprivileged area either.

You seize on one video of some kids beating another kid on the bus and take an enormous leap of logic to suggest that the problems in that school and in that district are exclusively the fault of the black kids. Its a not only a simplistic argument, but a dishonest one as well.

As to the bolded - none of what you have said is indicative of that. Imposing corporal punishment and forced trips to jail has ####### all to do with identifying causes and everything to do with forcing people to behave in a way that you would want them to.

It.

Doesn't.

Work.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Private Pike

[Heracles 417]

the school suspended not only the puncher but all those who did not assit the youngster getting beat...bus driver termed

as in fired?

Why should they be? The bus driver was driving the bus. They're not there to monitor mentally challenged 16 year old. Furthermore, in today's America they wouldn't even be able to touch the kids without the possibility of being sued.

Part of the bus driver's job is to maintain the well being of the children on there. Is it fair? Not really, but I think it would have been quite aparent what was going on and the bus driver should have pulled the bus over to at least find out what was going on. Termination is a harsh punishment, but I imagine the kid that got beaten's parents are threatening a massive lawsuit. You mention the words "civil rights" and "lawsuit" in the same sentence, and heads roll at a school district.

Come on BY, you know you've made up bull$hit statistics in the past and tried to pass them off as legitimate, only to later say that they were what you felt were proper representations of what is going on in this country. You did however cite your references and I shall take a look.

The bus driver is driving, that is their job. If a bunch of neanderthal knuckle dragging morons cannot behave at the age of 16, that's not the bus drivers fault. If the bus driver had an accident while trying to pull over, every clown's parent on that bus would sue. Stuff like this is exactly why America is rapidly falling down the education ranks in the world. Stuff like this is why America is becoming the butt of jokes in the developed world.

The victims parents need to sue the ###### out of the perpetrators family. To the point that they even take their cardboard box away from them once they're on the street.

The issue in America is that comments like mine which draw light to the obvious issue to anyone who is not from here, are automatically taken and twisted to mean every single African American. No, that is not what I am saying. However, there clearly is an issue with African American communities and their youth with violence and crime. Maybe you guys are just so used to this ###### you're desensitized and see it as normal. Heck, a daily shooting in DC, a city of 500,000 is normal here. Whereas, a shooting in Sydney, a city of 4.2 million, is huge in Aus.

[Heracles 417]

You assume that a fight on a school bus justifies the broad claims you are making about society, it doesn't.

A person's socio-economic class doesn't automatically mean that children will be well-behaved in schools. As I said - this kind of thing happened in my school, and that wasn't an underprivileged area either.

You seize on one video of some kids beating another kid on the bus and take an enormous leap of logic to suggest that the problems in that school and in that district are exclusively the fault of the black kids. Its a not only a simplistic argument, but a dishonest one as well.

As to the bolded - none of what you have said is indicative of that. Imposing corporal punishment and forced trips to jail has ####### all to do with identifying causes and everything to do with forcing people to behave in a way that you would want them to.

It.

Doesn't.

Work.

Six I realized a long time ago that you really don't care or even agree with half the things you say but come here and stir the pot yourself. Anyone from the UK would without a doubt never say such incidents are the norm. Anyone from the UK would realize there is an issue here. The same issue gets played in America time and time again yet you ignore the facts.

Data source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/piusp01.txt

The paragraph reads "In 2001, the chances of going to prison were highest among black males (32.2%)and Hispanic males (17.2%) and lowest among white males (5.9%). The lifetime chances of going to prison among black females (5.6%) were nearly as high as for white males. Hispanic females (2.2%) and white females (0.9%) had much lower chances of going to prison."

[Heracles 417]

Underlined part clearly reinforces danno's personal observation.

------------

Homicide rate for black D.C. teens surged since ’01, mirrors U.S. trend

By: Scott McCabe

Examiner Staff Writer

December 30, 2008

Homicides among young blacks in the District have risen dramatically since 2001, a reversal from the 1990s that mirrors a national trend reported in a study released Monday.

That study, by Boston’s Northeastern University, found that the number of slain black teenagers rose 39 percent across the United States, twice the rate of white youth.

The numbers show a “divergent tale of two communities — one prosperous and safe, the other poor and crime-ridden,” said James Alan Fox, the study’s co-author. Although FBI crime statistics show that homicides have stabilized across the country, the picture for black juveniles is radically different from the rest of the population, Fox said.

That was also true in the District, where no white juveniles have been slain in seven years, even as the rate among blacks rose roughly 45 percent between 2001 and 2006-2007.

Fox’s study compared 2000 and 2001 with 2006 and 2007, the last two years for which the statistics were available. The study compared two-year periods to limit statistical skewing.

The study did not include D.C. because the Metropolitan Police Department wasn’t able to supply the FBI with its 2007 crime numbers this summer.

But, according to figures provide by the D.C. police department to The Examiner on Monday, there were 10 juvenile homicides of African-Americans in 2001. Numbers for 2000 were not available, according to a department statistician. In 2006 and 2007, a total of 29 black children were slain in D.C., an average of 14.5 for the two years.

And in 2008, the number of black youth homicides has continued to climb. Nineteen children have been killed as of Dec. 16, all but two African-American.

Maryland saw the rate of young African-American homicides rise more slowly — up 20 percent since 2001. In Virginia, the number of young black homicides went up 25 percent.

In D.C., youth violence will likely increase as the economy continues its free fall and more law enforcement services are cut, said Karen Bune, a law enforcement expert at George Mason University.

Youth violence among African-Americans is the worst Bune’s seen in 30 years, and she blames in part a lack of family structure, an increase in both parents having to work.

“There are a lot of good youth out there, but they aren’t getting the help they need,” Bune said. “The gang is an outlet. It’s their way to have unity with a group.”

Fox could not attribute the increase to a single cause. The study said one factor was Bush administration cuts to youth crime prevention programs and to funding that allowed local police departments to hire more officers. The report also found fault with Congress passing laws that limited law enforcement’s ability to interrupt the illegal gun market.

Fox was hopeful that the president-elect would provide more funding for crime prevention. “You have to pay for programs now or pray for victims later,” he said. “Crime marches on, it doesn’t wait for the economy to improve.”

Find this article at:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/12...s_US_trend.html

Edited September 16, 2009 by Booyah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

BY, these things happen in UK schools . We've even had teachers assaulted and stabbed, those made the national news.

The everyday bullying, vandalism and fighting not so much.

[HAL 9000 96]

It shameful to use use poverty as some excuse or "reason to understand" what we see in this vid.

In times past, our Black citizens were a lot poorer and this was nowhere hear as common as it is now.

I have seen this same exact thing several times and I went to a average income school, where most people, black or white were middle class and we had the same sort of things going on with the same "group participation".

I recall three Black students jackin up this Asian kid because he didn't move out of the way fast enough, two of them even pushed him inside of a locker (this was in the locker room) and the third one pissed on him for about ten seconds. Everyone wanted to do something but this group of three could turn into five or six and be on you next.

Other black kids were disgusted by it too but for the same reason they just went the other way.

This was just an average "Township school" in NJ, I can only imagine what a zoo it would be like in a Phili public school.

This automatic assumption that Black= poverty, is stereo typing if anything is.

Unfortunately Black crime rates are as much as 10 times as high as others and explaining this by using the same ole "poverty-card" is not only gettin old...... but does not reflect facts.

Even Blacks in middle class incomes are still, many times their white neighbors in rates of crime.

I guess all of us have answers to help solve or deal with one social problem or another and I am no exception but.... I really have few answers on what can be done to combat this problem in any real way.

If I could wave a magic wand.. I would drastically increase Black fathers in the homes.

I believe this super-rate of single mothers..... raising teen boys, awash in a culture which glorifies violence and anti-social behavior is the biggest factor feeding this fire.

I doubt any group could sustain such high rates of fatherless children and not see similar effects.

What is more shameful is to misinterpret the obvious claims that what you put in bold is already included in that part of the analysis previously stated. Your ability to bait others with misinformed statements has diminished greatly. Its natural I suppose.

Note how we are not in disagreement.

Well... I have to ask myself how many times I can honestly have the same discussion.

If some people want to be bigots and use these forums to air their prejudices, nothing I say is going to make any difference.

Likely not.

[HAL 9000 96]

Noone is denying the video, BY - or the reality that these kinds of things happen in schools (and more so in some areas than others).

What I find supremely distasteful BY, is that your conception of "that culture" seems to be based more on MTV rap artists than it is on real life.

You'd be hardpressed to find someone who would honestly deny that there are indeed underprivileged parts of this country where crime, violence and social dysfunction are commonplace.

This is something that people in this country have been trying for decades to address, but the simple fact is there are no easy or quick solutions - so as much as getting out the cane or bussing kids off to jail might seem like a genius to you, the reality is that none of these things will effect the change you want. You can't force people to behave, just as you can't force them out of poverty or dangerous lifestyles. Change has to come from within and without.

You missing the point and in particular Danno's point. You falsely assume that these kids are all from poor inner city ghetto communities. However, even in middle class neighborhoods, African American kids disproportionally represent a much higher portion of crimes. As such, this rules out the 'they're just underprivileged' excuse. I also pointed out myself, why is it that other ethnicities that are poor that come to America do not act in this manner either. This is not a blame game. This is about identifying issues in a community and addressing them. Same way if someone is going to study kids shooting up schools, their not going to waste their time studying African American kids because they don't lose their mind like Caucasian kids do.

The reason this issue is not addressed is because someone must walk on eggshells when discussing it. Rather than an extensive analysis to determine the problem, even suggesting such a study will almost definitely result in racism allegations. As such, the only thing we have left to do is simply jail people, once they commit a crime. Personally, I'd rather find the root of the problem and address it but that's just me.

Lets just get at it in one line-

Is it a property of African Americans themselves or are there other circumstances that 'result' in the data you think you're seeing?

[Heracles 417]

Lets just get at it in one line-

Is it a property of African Americans themselves or are there other circumstances that 'result' in the data you think you're seeing?

These circumstances may explain inner city violence, however, the do not explain such violence in middle class areas. There is clearly some sort of breakdown in the community that is leading to this. As I stated earlier, the most disciplined and well liked and behaved kids in my street, African Americans. Which reinforces other research and statements, particularly by the president himself, that the issue lies with the parents or lack of. The article I just posted seems to reinforce this too.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Booyah!

[HAL 9000 96]

the school suspended not only the puncher but all those who did not assit the youngster getting beat...bus driver termed

The two perpetrators should have been expelled and arrested.

I do agree with that, I do completely disagree with your warped analysis of crime rates. The school that I went to, and even taught at for a brief period of time had this as a campus rule. Any action that would have been deemed a crime off campus would be defined as such on campus. For any fight that was deemed more than a scuffle, the police were called.

You said you have FBI statistics to prove your point. Where are they? Please provice the, with a direct link. It's not like you haven't made up statistics that you thought up on your own and pass off as verified, quantifiable data.

Which statistics did I make up? I have never pulled statistics out of my azz.

Here are some previous stats I dug up.. One's I made up that is

---------

Rape/Sexual assault

---------

---------

White Victims: 194,270

Race of offender

White:50.6%

Black: 16.7%

Other: 15.5%

Not known: 17.2%

---------

---------

Black Victims: 17,920

Race of offender

White: 0.00%

Black: 43.0%

Other: 32.3%

Not known: 24.7%

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0602.pdf

Not trying to be coy with you, but in that example, lets do the math:

White victims: N = 194,270

% Black perps = 16.7

16.7% of 194,270 = 32,443 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

% White perps = 50.6

50.6% of 194,270 = 98,300 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

Black victims: N = 17,920

% Black perps = 43.0

43.0% of 17,920 = 7,705 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

% White perps = 0

% Other perps (#######?) + Not known (hmmm) not considered in the example.

** So... lets add the absolutes:

Black perps total = 32,443 + 7,705 = 40,148 perps

White perps total = 98,300 + 0 = 98,300 perps

That's more than 2 to 1 White offenders to Black offenders in that category...

[HAL 9000 96]

Lets just get at it in one line-

Is it a property of African Americans themselves or are there other circumstances that 'result' in the data you think you're seeing?

These circumstances may explain inner city violence, however, the do not explain such violence in middle class areas. There is clearly some sort of breakdown in the community that is leading to this. As I stated earlier, the most disciplined and well liked and behaved kids in my street, African Americans. Which reinforces other research and statements, particularly by the president himself, that the issue lies with the parents or lack of. The article I just posted seems to reinforce this too.

How can you be so sure of this? People do move from the inner cities to suburban settings.

If in your opinion, the 'circumstances' do not fit well with suburban AA populations, then what explains the violence in middle class areas? I recommend you try answering in as short and simple answer as you can muster for others' clarity.

[Heracles 417]

Not trying to be coy with you, but in that example, lets do the math:

White victims: N = 194,270

% Black perps = 16.7

16.7% of 194,270 = 32,443 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

% White perps = 50.6

50.6% of 194,270 = 98,300 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

Black victims: N = 17,920

% Black perps = 43.0

43.0% of 17,920 = 7,705 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

% White perps = 0

% Other perps (#######?) + Not known (hmmm) not considered in the example.

** So... lets add the absolutes:

Black perps total = 32,443 + 7,705 = 40,148 perps

White perps total = 98,300 + 0 = 98,300 perps

That's more than 2 to 1 White offenders to Black offenders in that category...

You're right. The number of rapes by white men is atrocious. However, lets now factor in population. That's where the picture becomes more clearer.

Dude come on. You guys have probably not lived overseas so I guess it's hard for you to fathom that was is considered normal here, in various states, is actually frowned in most other parts of the developed world. This has nothing to do with race and the more this issue is pressed, the less likely the actual problem is to be fixed. Don't assume that anyone speaking up against this is a KKK loving racist.

[Ban Hammer 13,659]

the school suspended not only the puncher but all those who did not assit the youngster getting beat...bus driver termed

as in fired?

Why should they be? The bus driver was driving the bus. They're not there to monitor mentally challenged 16 year old. Furthermore, in today's America they wouldn't even be able to touch the kids without the possibility of being sued.

Part of the bus driver's job is to maintain the well being of the children on there. Is it fair? Not really, but I think it would have been quite aparent what was going on and the bus driver should have pulled the bus over to at least find out what was going on. Termination is a harsh punishment, but I imagine the kid that got beaten's parents are threatening a massive lawsuit. You mention the words "civil rights" and "lawsuit" in the same sentence, and heads roll at a school district.

Come on BY, you know you've made up bull$hit statistics in the past and tried to pass them off as legitimate, only to later say that they were what you felt were proper representations of what is going on in this country. You did however cite your references and I shall take a look.

if he or she was fired, good.

[HAL 9000 96]

Not trying to be coy with you, but in that example, lets do the math:

White victims: N = 194,270

% Black perps = 16.7

16.7% of 194,270 = 32,443 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

% White perps = 50.6

50.6% of 194,270 = 98,300 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

Black victims: N = 17,920

% Black perps = 43.0

43.0% of 17,920 = 7,705 perps (no info on repeat offenders or repeat victims)

% White perps = 0

% Other perps (#######?) + Not known (hmmm) not considered in the example.

** So... lets add the absolutes:

Black perps total = 32,443 + 7,705 = 40,148 perps

White perps total = 98,300 + 0 = 98,300 perps

That's more than 2 to 1 White offenders to Black offenders in that category...

You're right. The number of rapes by white men is atrocious. However, lets now factor in population. That's where the picture becomes more clearer.

Dude come on. You guys have probably not lived overseas so I guess it's hard for you to fathom that was is considered normal here, in various states, is actually frowned in most other parts of the developed world. This has nothing to do with race and the more this issue is pressed, the less likely the actual problem is to be fixed. Don't assume that anyone speaking up against this is a KKK loving racist.

Lucky me I have lived several places overseas.

Now- what do you mean by factoring in population? You mean its break down into racial category as the stats are?

You mention its not racially motivated... so what would be the logical conclusion?

[Heracles 417]

How can you be so sure of this? People do move from the inner cities to suburban settings.

If in your opinion, the 'circumstances' do not fit well with suburban AA populations, then what explains the violence in middle class areas? I recommend you try answering in as short and simple answer as you can muster for others' clarity.

Now your twisting it. For someone to be considered middle class, this means they have a certain amount of wealth or income behind them. As such, the they're just economically disadvantage excuse does not fly; as it's wrong. The financial excuse alone still fails to explain with other ethnicities and communities, in similar financial circumstances, are not as likely to commit crimes.

Refusing to accept reality is nothing new here. We've had these same arguments about illegal aliens and where the majority of them come from.

[Heracles 417]

Lucky me I have lived several places overseas.

Now- what do you mean by factoring in population? You mean its break down into racial category as the stats are?

You mention its not racially motivated... so what would be the logical conclusion?

You know exactly what population means, as per 100,000 people. By scaling it that way, differences in population are accounted for.

I am guessing you did not pay attention to the graph I posted earlier of the incarceration rates or homicide rates.

Edit: Tell about all of these places you have lived at where crime is as prevalent and the norm there too. From my experience, Melbourne and Sydney combined, with a population of 8 million, do not have anywhere near the homicide rate of Chicago; not even close.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Booyah!