Beating on school bus upsets parents

[Heracles 417]

The why IS the problem.

So you tell me then what justification, what why, is there for the 2.2 to 1 in terms of raping a woman.

I already have for the overall 'bad behavior.' But you really haven't- which is why I ask.

Its not about a justification, use more concise language- its about causality.

I can reframe it for you if you wish.

I am waiting for your opinion on WHY such a difference in the rate of rapes between the two.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Do some reading if you're interested, BY.

The problem, as usual is that you have already made up your mind.

[Heracles 417]

Do some reading if you're interested, BY.

The problem, as usual is that you have already made up your mind.

I have not made up my mind. I just want to know in people's opinion, why non-robbery related assaults and rapes are more prevalent.

[HAL 9000 96]

The why IS the problem.

So you tell me then what justification, what why, is there for the 2.2 to 1 in terms of raping a woman.

I already have for the overall 'bad behavior.' But you really haven't- which is why I ask.

Its not about a justification, use more concise language- its about causality.

I can reframe it for you if you wish.

I am waiting for your opinion on WHY such a difference in the rate of rapes between the two.

OK- as opposed to Pike, I will repeat myself just once.

1. Population density. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior is more difficult to prevent and isolate from less dense areas of population.

2. Economics. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior often replaces law abiding, legitimate business because there is little to no opportunity for accessing improved economical status via education and labor.

3. History. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where they have emigrated to throughout the last 200 years as the nation's economy has shifted from agricultural to industrial and in that time, has gone from a primarily racist institution to one where the resulting segregation is slowly being deflated towards a more desegregated model where poor blacks are very slowly reintegrating into the main trunk of American society via socioeconomical improvement.

4. Social pushback. More blacks live in a reality where they've internalized the historical victimization and taken the behavior out on actual society. This rectification 'overshoot' will fall back to the acceptable range as all conditions even out and WE STOP TREATING PEOPLE AS SEPARATE. Which is already happening in this country (Thank God).

These are root causes, BY. See how addressing each with varying amounts of understanding, open-mindedness, and public policy can result in a decrease in the moral and social breakdown that has plagued the African American community in the last 40-50 years?

So... again... I've framed simple answers. Will you?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The why IS the problem.

So you tell me then what justification, what why, is there for the 2.2 to 1 in terms of raping a woman.

I already have for the overall 'bad behavior.' But you really haven't- which is why I ask.

Its not about a justification, use more concise language- its about causality.

I can reframe it for you if you wish.

I am waiting for your opinion on WHY such a difference in the rate of rapes between the two.

OK- as opposed to Pike, I will repeat myself just once.

1. Population density. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior is more difficult to prevent and isolate from less dense areas of population.

2. Economics. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior often replaces law abiding, legitimate business because there is little to no opportunity for accessing improved economical status via education and labor.

3. History. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where they have emigrated to throughout the last 200 years as the nation's economy has shifted from agricultural to industrial and in that time, has gone from a primarily racist institution to one where the resulting segregation is slowly being deflated towards a more desegregated model where poor blacks are very slowly reintegrating into the main trunk of American society via socioeconomical improvement.

4. Social pushback. More blacks live in a reality where they've internalized the historical victimization and taken the behavior out on actual society. This rectification 'overshoot' will fall back to the acceptable range as all conditions even out and WE STOP TREATING PEOPLE AS SEPARATE. Which is already happening in this country (Thank God).

These are root causes, BY. See how addressing each with varying amounts of understanding, open-mindedness, and public policy can result in a decrease in the moral and social breakdown that has plagued the African American community in the last 40-50 years?

So... again... I've framed simple answers. Will you?

All that and not a sniff of justification in sight

[Heracles 417]

OK- as opposed to Pike, I will repeat myself just once.

1. Population density. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior is more difficult to prevent and isolate from less dense areas of population.

2. Economics. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior often replaces law abiding, legitimate business because there is little to no opportunity for accessing improved economical status via education and labor.

3. History. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where they have emigrated to throughout the last 200 years as the nation's economy has shifted from agricultural to industrial and in that time, has gone from a primarily racist institution to one where the resulting segregation is slowly being deflated towards a more desegregated model where poor blacks are very slowly reintegrating into the main trunk of American society via socioeconomical improvement.

4. Social pushback. More blacks live in a reality where they've internalized the historical victimization and taken the behavior out on actual society. This rectification 'overshoot' will fall back to the acceptable range as all conditions even out and WE STOP TREATING PEOPLE AS SEPARATE. Which is already happening in this country (Thank God).

These are root causes, BY. See how addressing each with varying amounts of understanding, open-mindedness, and public policy can result in a decrease in the moral and social breakdown that has plagued the African American community in the last 40-50 years?

So... again... I've framed simple answers. Will you?

Now we're getting somewhere. Therefore, someone's circumstances and environment will affect their behavior; not denying that. However, this is yet to explain why other ethnicities or cultures with similar or worse experiences do not behave this way. I'm not just talking about in America here. Contrary to popular belief, African Americans are not the first or last people to have been slaves, segregated or living in poverty.

1. That is their choice. They are the one's who insist on living in inner city areas. Areas that have zero job opportunities available to those without an education. Moving is not rocket science.

2. True but once again the above apples. They have every opportunity to open up a local business or go to school. Just like everyone else. Actually students in the roughest parts of DC, in the poorest area, receive more funding per student that the wealthiest county.

3. I'll give you this point.

4. Well it works both ways. This is all good and well but there is attitude issue I see. For example, people accusing others trying to succeed that "they're just being white". And so on. This attitude obviously paints a negative connotation to succeeding.

Even look the communities people live in. It takes personal responsibility to clean them up or take care of them. Buying a $30 gallon or two or paint and cleaning up one's house or their neighbors is not rocket science. It takes community willpower and spirit to want to do it. Whether anyone admits it or not, it's clearly something the community is lacking. When it comes to racist allegation the select few faces will pop their face in the news, within a heartbeat. Yet they are lost for words, never seen that is, when it comes to crime let alone drives to fix up the community. Therefore, they teach people blame and hopelessness. Aesthetically fixing up a community in my opinion is the first step towards improvement. It gives people something to enjoy and should inspire them to do more.

While the points you stated are a factor, they are not the underlying reason for the disproportionate rate of crime when compared to any other ethnicity in America. They also falsely assume that in 2009 these people are still kept down or not receiving an equitable treatment when compared to others. That is simply not true. Or that all of these people want to improve their life, but rather, are still held back by institutional racism. Which I have seen no evidence of. Actually I have seen the reverse but that is a whole other story.

Here is something to consider in terms of cultural differences:

Edited September 16, 2009 by Booyah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So then you're back to suggesting that behaviour is a function of race and not incidental or circumstantial.

You're also labouring under a misconception if you think that amongst poor, disenfranchised, hopeless and resentful populations that its blacks who somehow stand out when it comes to criminal behaviour - you are quite wrong.

Most countries have their share of bad areas - Britain certainly does; and relatively few of them are confined to one particular ethnicity. You see much the same scenario among working class whites.

The point being that circumstances define behaviour (and vice versa). Its a vicious circle.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Private Pike

[Heracles 417]

So then you're back to suggesting that behaviour is a function of race and not incidental or circumstantial.

You're also labouring under a misconception if you think that amongst poor, disenfranchised, hopeless and resentful populations that its blacks who somehow stand out when it comes to criminal behaviour - you are quite wrong.

Most countries have their share of bad areas - Britain certainly does; and relatively few of them are confined to one particular ethnicity. You see much the same scenario among working class whites.

The point being that circumstances define behaviour (and vice versa).

Never said poverty and crime are not correlated, however, I did say that not all the poor behave equally. I have seen people in India that make the poorest American living in a ghetto look rich. Yet they are humble and obey the law. Nonetheless, I am sure you have studies that support your opinion that poor African Americans partake just as much in crime as someone poor in the UK, right?

I have traveled to quite a few countries. Without a doubt I can say the United States is one of few developed nations with a sub-culture amongst the middle class and poor that endorses thuggery and gangsta activity. The biggest critics I have spoken to of such behavior are your fellow countrymen, who absolutely loathe it. Fair enough; after all, that is what opinions are all about. Such behavior abroad is the exception rather than the norm.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Booyah!

[HAL 9000 96]

I'll add to the points you're making in red inside the quote box. Just remember for a moment that I am identifying root causes, not making statements about the value of each root cause as they pertain to stopiing this ridiculous behavior.

OK- as opposed to Pike, I will repeat myself just once.

1. Population density. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior is more difficult to prevent and isolate from less dense areas of population.

2. Economics. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where criminal behavior often replaces law abiding, legitimate business because there is little to no opportunity for accessing improved economical status via education and labor.

3. History. More blacks live in poor, urban areas where they have emigrated to throughout the last 200 years as the nation's economy has shifted from agricultural to industrial and in that time, has gone from a primarily racist institution to one where the resulting segregation is slowly being deflated towards a more desegregated model where poor blacks are very slowly reintegrating into the main trunk of American society via socioeconomical improvement.

4. Social pushback. More blacks live in a reality where they've internalized the historical victimization and taken the behavior out on actual society. This rectification 'overshoot' will fall back to the acceptable range as all conditions even out and WE STOP TREATING PEOPLE AS SEPARATE. Which is already happening in this country (Thank God).

These are root causes, BY. See how addressing each with varying amounts of understanding, open-mindedness, and public policy can result in a decrease in the moral and social breakdown that has plagued the African American community in the last 40-50 years?

So... again... I've framed simple answers. Will you?

Now we're getting somewhere. Therefore, someone's circumstances and environment will affect their behavior; not denying that. However, this is yet to explain why other ethnicities or cultures with similar or worse experiences do not behave this way. I'm not just talking about in America here. Contrary to popular belief, African Americans are not the first or last people to have been slaves, segregated or living in poverty.

1. That is their choice. They are the one's who insist on living in inner city areas. Areas that have zero job opportunities available to those without an education. Moving is not rocket science.

Yes. And little by little, they are moving out.

2. True but once again the above apples. They have every opportunity to open up a local business or go to school. Just like everyone else. Actually students in the roughest parts of DC, in the poorest area, receive more funding per student that the wealthiest county.

That is a separate issue related to the property taxes that supplement state expenditures. I believe I pointed that out yesterday in another thread.

Opportunity does not exist where initial investment cannot be made. You should know this also.

3. I'll give you this point.

4. Well it works both ways. This is all good and well but there is attitude issue I see. For example, people accusing others trying to succeed that "they're just being white". And so on. This attitude obviously paints a negative connotation to succeeding.

And as I said- this is almost an elastic reaction from the African American community (in my opinion). It is diminishing as we gradually transition into a post-racial era. But this is extremely slow.

Even look the communities people live in. It takes personal responsibility to clean them up or take care of them. Buying a $30 gallon or two or paint and cleaning up one's house or their neighbors is not rocket science. It takes community willpower and spirit to want to do it. Whether anyone admits it or not, it's clearly something the community is lacking.

Yes, these things are lacking. And due to the fact that its up to personal responsibility, its not rocket science either then, that when you put together all the aforementioned 'factors' that this LACK of personal responsibility has root causes. Nevertheless- I see positive changes in those 'ghettos' as much as I see bad behavior continue.

When it comes to racist allegation the select few faces will pop their face in the news, within a heartbeat. Yet they are lost for words, never seen that is, when it comes to crime let alone drives to fix up the community.

A bit oversimplified IMO. This is part of the pushback, or 'overshoot' I mentioned previously. It is decreasing as we transition.

Therefore, they teach people blame and hopelessness. Aesthetically fixing up a community in my opinion is the first step towards improvement. It gives people something to enjoy and should inspire them to do more.

Good. Agreed. And it is slowly occurring. I'd like to see more public works projects where training in such areas are provided for neighborhood youth to participate in this effort.

While the points you stated are a factor, they are not the underlying reason for the disproportionate rate of crime when compared to any other ethnicity in America.

IMO they are the underlying reason (causation). Looking at the ethnicity issue is invalid without looking at the economical links to said rates.

They also falsely assume that in 2009 these people are still kept down or not receiving an equitable treatment when compared to others. That is simply not true.

Correct. It isn't true anymore. People remember, nevertheless. As for equitable treatment... when you are poor there is no such thing as equity par the rest of society.

Or that all of these people want to improve their life, but rather, are still held back by institutional racism. Which I have seen no evidence of. Actually I have seen the reverse but that is a whole other story.

It is another story. Institutional racism still exists, although with each passing day it is less. Don't mean to pry because as I already told you, I don't know you- but perhaps you really have not been exposed or witnessed it as I already have on multiple occasions. Its one very complicated topic, so yes, its not to be discussed here any further- there will be more denying than those you attack for denying that there is a problem in the hood.

Here is something to consider in terms of cultural differences:

And once again you have not defined culture (I don't think you ever did). I prefer to be on a level playing field (definition) when we want to use graphical representations. I don't think I am making an unreasonable request.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So then you're back to suggesting that behaviour is a function of race and not incidental or circumstantial.

You're also labouring under a misconception if you think that amongst poor, disenfranchised, hopeless and resentful populations that its blacks who somehow stand out when it comes to criminal behaviour - you are quite wrong.

Most countries have their share of bad areas - Britain certainly does; and relatively few of them are confined to one particular ethnicity. You see much the same scenario among working class whites.

The point being that circumstances define behaviour (and vice versa).

Never said poverty and crime are not correlated, however, I did say that not all the poor behave equally. I have seen people in India that make the poorest American living in a ghetto look rich. Yet they are humble and obey the law. Nonetheless, I am sure you have studies that support your opinion that poor African Americans partake just as much in crime as someone poor in the UK, right?

I have traveled to quite a few countries. Without a doubt I can say the United States is one of few developed nations with a sub-culture that endorses thuggery and gangsta activity. The biggest critics I have spoken to of such behavior are your fellow countrymen, who absolutely loathe it. Fair enough; after all, that is what opinions are all about.

Such behavior abroad is the exception rather than the norm.

There's child prostitution and slavery in India, BY...

My point BY, is that where bad conditions flourish, so does crime.

That's a more reasonable argument than implying that behaviour is a function of race.

[HAL 9000 96]

So then you're back to suggesting that behaviour is a function of race and not incidental or circumstantial.

You're also labouring under a misconception if you think that amongst poor, disenfranchised, hopeless and resentful populations that its blacks who somehow stand out when it comes to criminal behaviour - you are quite wrong.

Most countries have their share of bad areas - Britain certainly does; and relatively few of them are confined to one particular ethnicity. You see much the same scenario among working class whites.

The point being that circumstances define behaviour (and vice versa).

Never said poverty and crime are not correlated, however, I did say that not all the poor behave equally. I have seen people in India that make the poorest American living in a ghetto look rich. Yet they are humble and obey the law. Nonetheless, I am sure you have studies that support your opinion that poor African Americans partake just as much in crime as someone poor in the UK, right?

I have traveled to quite a few countries. Without a doubt I can say the United States is one of few developed nations with a sub-culture that endorses thuggery and gangsta activity. The biggest critics I have spoken to of such behavior are your fellow countrymen, who absolutely loathe it. Fair enough; after all, that is what opinions are all about.

Such behavior abroad is the exception rather than the norm.

I'd not rush to conclude that the poor of India have had similar experiences as the poor in America. These are in fact, incongruous comparisons. You should know this as a world traveler.

Furthermore, a simple, concise definition of culture is long overdue from you.

[Heracles 417]

Here is something to consider in terms of cultural differences:

And once again you have not defined culture (I don't think you ever did). I prefer to be on a level playing field (definition) when we want to use graphical representations. I don't think I am making an unreasonable request.

Anyone who has studied cultural dimensions will understand those. They're coming from a business sense but are still applicable they illustrate a clear difference in mindset.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Booyah!

[Heracles 417]

I'd not rush to conclude that the poor of India have had similar experiences as the poor in America. These are in fact, incongruous comparisons. You should know this as a world traveler.

Furthermore, a simple, concise definition of culture is long overdue from you.

Both of you are yet to show me statistics demonstrating that the poor of other ethnicities partake in crime as do African Americans. Furthermore, that this theory of yours is also applicable in the international context. Surely there must be some shed of evidence to back this assumption. On top of that, Danno's observation regarding the middle class is yet to be clarified either.

At the end of the day Hal, most Americans have their own problems and challenges to worry about. They're don't have the time to coddle and baby the poor urban AA community. Furthermore, you know republicans and this means they're not going to get any more help than they already do period. Like everyone else, be it black, white, Asian, Hispanic or even Aussie, they're on their own. This is the US and not Australia so if they're expecting some sort of handout it's not going to come. I understand their struggles but sitting there and playing the victim does nothing to improve the situation. That is the reality. They either band together and improve themselves, or drown in misery. As I said, help ain't coming.

They do have one more option....

Edited September 16, 2009 by Booyah!

[HAL 9000 96]

Here is something to consider in terms of cultural differences:

And once again you have not defined culture (I don't think you ever did). I prefer to be on a level playing field (definition) when we want to use graphical representations. I don't think I am making an unreasonable request.

Anyone who has studied cultural dimensions will understand those. They're coming from a business sense but are still applicable they illustrate a clear difference in mindset.

BY it really isn't hard. Try a simple, to the point, definition of culture as it pertains to what we are talking about.

[Danno 1,228]

I see the debate still rages on.

The simple truth is Liberals have built the model Blacks now live under in the modern era.

And like all broken models that have liberal finger prints all over them, there are two principle reactions when you shine the light on their handi-work.

1. we Really care for "these people" and you don't.

2. We can fix it... we just need more money.

.... oh yeah and

3. You are the bad one for noticing whats going on.

Evidence of failure could not.... COULD NOT be more evident yet they still have the answers.