The Saga Continues.....

[deeshla 0]

It really is a shame that Goldenheart's plight has turned into an islamic debate b/t 2 members

Can we just close this issue now and agree that you both disagree and just be here for a sister in need?

I know some of the posts were aimed at helping her discover the issue of the refusal and problems at POE, but this is getting a little ridiculous in my humble little bitty opinion.... just my 87 cents...

thanks, and have a lovely day!

NOURA

It is getting ridiculous, but I must thank SZSZ -- I am learning A LOT and I respect her knowledge. Converts that I meet in Morocco (generally American women) seem to think they can do they Islamic marriage too -- outside of the court -- one (dubious) friend of mine calls this "the sex paper" -- basically legalized sex necessary in a culture that tries to enforce celibacy (but fails! look at the Moroccan prostitutes!). I am NOT trying to add any fuel to to fire, just to re-iterate that this really is an issue for people marrying across cultures, especially with misleading information (benign or not).

I should add that some of my (professional, adult) Moroccan students in my classes here in Rabat do not even know the difference and debate this in much the same way.

Amanda

[dawnnhatem 0]

I am usually a little opposed to thread hijacking....but you know what? I am glad you two are bringing it here instead of a new thread named "islamic debate". Can you imagine the intrusive OT posts if you opened a new thread??? and as a practical matter, I think we are collectively pretty much out of ideas for GH for the moment (wish it wasn't true, but until anything changes or progresses out on its own, we are pretty much stopped)I applaud you girls for finding the perfect "hiding" spot to discuss this, and I see that I am not the only one interested in how different views of the same material can be.

Have a good day everybody

Dawn

[Bosco 1]

It is getting ridiculous, but I must thank SZSZ -- I am learning A LOT and I respect her knowledge. Converts that I meet in Morocco (generally American women) seem to think they can do they Islamic marriage too -- outside of the court -- one (dubious) friend of mine calls this "the sex paper" -- basically legalized sex necessary in a culture that tries to enforce celibacy (but fails! look at the Moroccan prostitutes!). I am NOT trying to add any fuel to to fire, just to re-iterate that this really is an issue for people marrying across cultures, especially with misleading information (benign or not).

I should add that some of my (professional, adult) Moroccan students in my classes here in Rabat do not even know the difference and debate this in much the same way.

Amanda

It is funny you say this Amanda. My husband has studied Islamic law and he calls the Islamic marriage alone "halal for sex". He doesn't mean that anyone who chooses such a path is marrying for sex or that they are not sincere in their marriage, but the marriage makes it only acceptable for them to be alone together but misses some other very important elements. For example, if the man dies, the woman may not be able to inherit, and this was a very important offshoot of marriage as as men are considered to be the protectors/maintainers of women (Surah an-Nisa 34).

This is why I asked if Layla felt fitna is bida. Fitna is creating Islamic law based on what is found in the Qur'an and Sunnah. I believe requiring marriages to be registered is a matter of fitna and not bida and thus why most countries with Islamic law require such.

I am not calling anyone's marriage haram. I want to make that clear. I feel it is all about the intentions the parties had entering into the marriage. From what I know of the women here, I believe everyone is sincere (why else go through the horrible visa process?).

I find if disturbing how easily kafir has been thrown around. I won't get into quoting ahadith, but think it would be good for everyone to remember this should not be said lightly.

Rebecca

[Veiled Princess 1]

It is funny you say this Amanda. My husband has studied Islamic law and he calls the Islamic marriage alone "halal for sex". He doesn't mean that anyone who chooses such a path is marrying for sex or that they are not sincere in their marriage, but the marriage makes it only acceptable for them to be alone together but misses some other very important elements. For example, if the man dies, the woman may not be able to inherit, and this was a very important offshoot of marriage as as men are considered to be the protectors/maintainers of women (Surah an-Nisa 34).

This is why I asked if Layla felt fitna is bida. Fitna is creating Islamic law based on what is found in the Qur'an and Sunnah. I believe requiring marriages to be registered is a matter of fitna and not bida and thus why most countries with Islamic law require such.

I am not calling anyone's marriage haram. I want to make that clear. I feel it is all about the intentions the parties had entering into the marriage. From what I know of the women here, I believe everyone is sincere (why else go through the horrible visa process?).

I find if disturbing how easily kafir has been thrown around. I won't get into quoting ahadith, but think it would be good for everyone to remember this should not be said lightly.

Rebecca

I'm sorry Rebecca I was so caught up in "fighting" I skipped your question completly! You asked if I consider fiqh to be bidah (not fitnah) and my answer is no. Of course I don't have a problem with making laws based off the Quran and Sunnah. It is when we start borrowing laws from the kufar or trying to change our laws to suit them that I consider it bidah.

Again I'm sorry I skipped over your question earlier.

Also, I'm sorry, once again, for the way I have behaved in this thread and for starting this.

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It is getting ridiculous, but I must thank SZSZ -- I am learning A LOT and I respect her knowledge. Converts that I meet in Morocco (generally American women) seem to think they can do they Islamic marriage too -- outside of the court -- one (dubious) friend of mine calls this "the sex paper" -- basically legalized sex necessary in a culture that tries to enforce celibacy (but fails! look at the Moroccan prostitutes!). I am NOT trying to add any fuel to to fire, just to re-iterate that this really is an issue for people marrying across cultures, especially with misleading information (benign or not).

I'm not afraid of debate, especially when it serves the community. The Prophet said that debate is a blessing on the ummah. Why is it that some want to stop when this issue was raised by a real incident and if we can prevent other women from falling into the same trap, aren't we obliged to try?

I cringe every time I see a poster state that she will "marry" her man in an "Islamic" ceremony, then apply for a K1! Is she married or not? What kind of imam conducts such a ceremony? What kind of wali permits a women to enter into an unenforcable contract? What kind of man would allow a women he cares for to enter into such a dubious contractual agreement? A loving father? An educated imam? A concerned wali?

I say NONE OF THE ABOVE!

I'm also not afraid to call a spade and spade. It is a major disservice for a convert to insist that she is not changing the religion by insisting that a nikah with no enforcement of rights and responsibilities is equal to and as halal as one with such provisions.

As to the issue of whether Muslim women can marry man of the Book, Layla, I know it is not forbidden by Islam, but it another cultural trapping that is confused with Islam. It is too off topic to address in any depth, but if you want a really good raking over the coals about it, I will direct you to another website where there is someone very well equiped to take you on if you care to argue about that.

Go here: http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/discussion...sp?boardID=1740 and ask for miraj. She'll be more than happy to fill you in on that subject.

I am married! I have fulfilled the requirements of my nikaah! I guess no one in countries who don't recognize the marriage contract can ever get married. Actually, women from Saudi and other Muslim / Arab nations can't marry because they don't give women the rights you think they should. Don't tell me the west gives women their rights. If they did I wouldn't have to beg for child support on a weekly basis from the kaafir I was married to in the past!

What have you done to have your contract recognized, Layla? You are actually proud that you have done nothing to ensure your protection other than count on your man to be honorable. But, how honorable is a man who would let you enter into such a nebulous state of being?

Who says? You think men in America who make babies with 5 different women don't have to take care of those babies even though they weren't married?

Is that what you were depending on when you laid with a man to whom you are not lawfully married? That there is SOME way to make him pay if he doesn't honor your fake marriage? Is this what you would want for your own daughter? You post here, recommending it to your sisters.

Well, like I already said... I firmly believe in not changing the religion and you seek to make changes. I though we were clear on that earlier.

What is clear is that you are a sectarian who believes as her sect tells her to believe, not what Allah tells her to believe.

I agree, you are much older than I am. I can't speak about your ancestors or what they taught you because I don't know where you're from. In fact, as I mentioned before, I don't know anything about you at all.

I don't need to know more about you than what you post here to respond. The rest is irrelevent to me.

It is from the Quran and Sunnah for women to wear hijab. You don't disagree with me, you disagree with your Creator and His messenger.

There is not one line in the Quran that commands women to cover, much less conceal their hair. The belief that there is comes from an inference, not a directive. The directive is to be modest. The Quran NEVER says one thing about hijab that refers to dress. And, I reiterate, the ahl al kitab covered their hair before the Arabs did, so, it can be said that, in doing so, you are "imitating the kufar", as you are so haughty to say about others. I don't care who covers and who doesn't myself. It's a personal choice based on which interpretation you believe.

Nothing you say affects me. I have scholars to seek knowledge and adivce from and I don't pick it up here on VJ

You have the scholars, I have Allah. Sounds about right!

Listen, you have made it clear that you have found a way to behave as do the kuffar you despise - you don't need a stinking piece of paper, and you have no self-awareness of the consequences of wanting what you want when you want it. I have made it clear that if I had been your parent, I would have wanted better for you than for you to sell yourself short, as you have done.

Your sin is complete. Unlike sister Goldenheart, you did not enter into your invalid marriage, a contract between two Muslims, unaware. You did so knowingly, willfully and unrepentantly. You do not have the excuse of being a non-Muslim unaware that she is giving up her rights to satisfy her desires. You have told us all that you knew what you did, you gave away your rights, you have no protection, and you have no regrets. The only thing I can hope for now is that other women, reading this exchange, will know better than to do as you have done.

I'm done with you re tis issue. You are in God's hands, as are we all.

Edited July 17, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

Go here: http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/discussion...sp?boardID=1740 and ask for miraj. She'll be more than happy to fill you in on that subject.

Why would you direct me to a website that promotes paganism?

I'll reply to the rest of this when I get home.. unless anyone has any objections... if so just post them before I get home and I'll respect that.

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Why would you direct me to a website that promotes paganism?

Considering what you've been promoting here, it's a step up from paganism.

Seriously, who would want their daughter taking advice from you about how to get married Islamically? I'm sure it's unpleasant having a stranger tell you that you're not reeally maried. What appalls me the most is not that entering into an unenforcable contract so that you could be intimate with a man not your husband is a choice you made for yourself, but that you have the gall to promote it as halal, and to do so in public. We are not to advertise our sins, don't you know that?

I'm also not surprised that you have chosen not to answer the questions I posed to you more than once. Doing so would expose the hypocrisy in your thinking and your selective notions regarding bida.

I have met you before, Layla. Some I can help, some I cannot. I know you don't like my questions, but if you wouldn't mind answering these two, please:

Are you applying for a K3 or a K1?

Oh, and are you going thru the "kafir state" for immigration approval?

May God guide us all.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I have met you before, Layla.

What do you mean you have met me before? You don't know me. Are you trying to threaten me on a public board?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It is funny you say this Amanda. My husband has studied Islamic law and he calls the Islamic marriage alone "halal for sex". He doesn't mean that anyone who chooses such a path is marrying for sex or that they are not sincere in their marriage, but the marriage makes it only acceptable for them to be alone together but misses some other very important elements. For example, if the man dies, the woman may not be able to inherit, and this was a very important offshoot of marriage as as men are considered to be the protectors/maintainers of women (Surah an-Nisa 34).

Sounds a lot like urfi, and even urfi marriages must be registered with the state.

I have asked Layla more than once to tell us if her attitude toward marriage would fly even among her Salafi brothers and sisters in the KSA. Could she simply have a nikah ceremony, not register the contractual agreement, and be seen as halal for her husband?

She didn't answer, so I did - the answer is NO. She has not denied that. So don't be fooled by the diversionary tactic that what I am saying is bida, or that I am remise in what I say. Islam REQUIRES protection, justice and an outside authority to mediate, enforce and, if needed, to end a marriage. Muslims making up marriage cannot do that on their own, and there is no nation, "kafir" or Muslim who doesn't at least attempt to preserve order for the social interactions of their citizens. No Muslim should expect less, or give away what God has offered to them, then claim that they are as in compliance with Allah's Will.

What do you mean you have met me before? You don't know me. Are you trying to threaten me on a public board?

I was speaking metaphorically. I meant I have met people like you. That should have been clarified by the following sentence, but it went over your head, so I apologize. No, I was not threatening you.

At some point, I suppose that I have to concede to the imbalance between the debaters. Layla reached the limit of her defenses long ago, and I acknowledged that. So I cannot plausibly expand further when all that there is to say about her particular situation has all been said.

If there is anything credible to address in the future, I will do so. Otherwise, it is a waste of time to go 'round and 'round repeating the same information. I have no friendships to protect, and I'm not a moral relativist, so I have laid out things the way I see them from what I have learned in my quest for knowledge in His Name; that is all I can do.

Dear reader, you have a right and a responsibility to think and assess for yourself to determine what you believe to be true and what path you wil take.

Edited July 17, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I have asked Layla more than once to tell us if her attitude toward marriage would fly even among her Salafi brothers and sisters in the KSA. Could she simply have a nikah ceremony, not register the contractual agreement, and be seen as halal for her husband?

She didn't answer, so I did - the answer is NO. She has not denied that.

I did answer you. I told you the scholars in KSA don't make the laws. I haven't been there so I don't know what they do there.

Shaykh al Albanee was not a saudi scholar so who said all salafi scholars are from or in the KSA?

Furthermore, salafi brothers in the west have consulted with shaykhs regarding marrying more than one wife in the US and they don't have to have a marriage license for that.

Here's my problem.... you make a good point about the contract needing to be enforced. I have told you that already. We could have gotten along at that point and left it alone BUT you are issuing e-fatawa here on VJ and declaring that anyone here who has consulted with a shaykh/imaam and been told this is fine is actually whoring around with her husband. --Correction: Since I am the only one who doesn't by what you're selling... I am the only ####### and everyone else is innocent victoms.--

And then on top of that, when you're throwing all this other stuff that is clearly haraam in with it, it makes it a little hard for me to trust you.

Also, it is obvious that your intention was not to advise me but to attempt to embarass me in public by declaring that what I'm doing is haraam (which I still don't agree with). That became obvious when I asked you to provide me with the proof in private and you instead responded here in public. You have all but called me a ####### in this thread so far and you do so just to make me angry so I'll respond out of anger and you can fluff your feathers.

I have not been innocent in this because I have also made accusations against you and I have apologized!

All you do is keep talking about what your feelings are or your opinions are when all I asked you for was the proof. If what you're telling me is the truth and I should be warned that my marriage may not be legit and your intention is to ADVISE then YOU should provide me with the proof. But you haven't. You answer my questions with questions and your feelings on the matter and still I don't have a single ayah from the Quran or a hadeeth that supports what you're telling me. Nothing, nada, zilch. But yet you slander me stating that I refuse to answer your questions.

I mean you no disrespect but you are not trying to teach me anything...

Layla

[noura 0]

girls, girls!!! can't we stop this madness???? i am requesting that ewok lock this damn topic down - i'm ####### sick of it....

I'm taking you both to the principal's office and we're calling your parents - ##### enough already!!!

[Veiled Princess 1]

girls, girls!!! can't we stop this madness???? i am requesting that ewok lock this damn topic down - i'm ####### sick of it....

I'm taking you both to the principal's office and we're calling your parents - ##### enough already!!!

sorry Noura... I'll stop replying inshallah.

Layla

[Bosco 1]

I'm sorry Rebecca I was so caught up in "fighting" I skipped your question completly! You asked if I consider fiqh to be bidah (not fitnah) and my answer is no. Of course I don't have a problem with making laws based off the Quran and Sunnah. It is when we start borrowing laws from the kufar or trying to change our laws to suit them that I consider it bidah.

Again I'm sorry I skipped over your question earlier.

Also, I'm sorry, once again, for the way I have behaved in this thread and for starting this.

Layla

Layla,

Is there a particular reason why you view marriage registration as bidah versus fitna? I am not trying to fuel the fire but I am curious about this.

I personally see it as fitna. I feel the registration is meant to preserve the contract (and the things that result thereof) and thus is something that should be addressed in Islamic law (especially when there are and have been problems with Islamic marriage alone). I know our imam would not consider an Islamic marriage alone. He is able to perform both civil and Islamic, and gave us the choice of bringing him a signed civil certificate or having him perform both concurrently.

I want to reiterate that I am not questioning anyone's marriage, just interested in the view of this as bidah versus Islamic jurisprudence.

Rebecca

[babybunny 2]

let me get this right.. its NOT Halal if you marry islamic and not registar the marriage? I would have to DISAGREE!

you are compairing apples to oranges.

now if we are talking about the legal aspect of it all of course you registar the marriage. coz its the LAW and its precribed by the govermence. but, if we are talking religon I think it is Halal if you marry..

did i get this right?

I'm sorry Rebecca I was so caught up in "fighting" I skipped your question completly! You asked if I consider fiqh to be bidah (not fitnah) and my answer is no. Of course I don't have a problem with making laws based off the Quran and Sunnah. It is when we start borrowing laws from the kufar or trying to change our laws to suit them that I consider it bidah.

Again I'm sorry I skipped over your question earlier.

Also, I'm sorry, once again, for the way I have behaved in this thread and for starting this.

Layla

Layla,

Is there a particular reason why you view marriage registration as bidah versus fitna? I am not trying to fuel the fire but I am curious about this.

I personally see it as fitna. I feel the registration is meant to preserve the contract (and the things that result thereof) and thus is something that should be addressed in Islamic law (especially when there are and have been problems with Islamic marriage alone). I know our imam would not consider an Islamic marriage alone. He is able to perform both civil and Islamic, and gave us the choice of bringing him a signed civil certificate or having him perform both concurrently.

I want to reiterate that I am not questioning anyone's marriage, just interested in the view of this as bidah versus Islamic jurisprudence.

Rebecca

yeah what becca said..

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I wouldn't rely on beliefnet for islamic advice either. I posted there quite frequently a few years back, but the insensant bickering between certain factions never stops, and so now I only lurk and divert visa questions to VJ.

That being said, I wouldn't rely on islamic advice from any random person on the internet I don't know. I'd rather place my trust in someone who's credentials are known, someone who I know has studied with so and so and follows x madhab or is of y persuation. There is a difference of opinions here, and I doubt that any person here is qualified to give a definative ruling on any issue (unless szsz claims to be a scholar like miraj, but even then, we don't know who she really is, so there's no way to verify it).

I'll rely on scholars and sheikhs I trust, as well as my husband (who, btw is rather serious and studied in his faith and was a-ok with a nikkah with 2 witnesses, an imam and a contract without registering it with the state as long as we intended to register it in the futurem quel horror *faints*). If I have a fiqhi question, I'll go to him or Sheikh Hamza or the peeps at Sunnipath.

The moral of the story? Ummm, is there one? Ahh, take what you hear on the internet with a grain of salt and rely on someone you know and trust for your religious knowledge. In the end, we are answerable for our actions to Allah (swt) and Allah (swt) knows our intentions.

And that's all I gots ta say bout that.

Golden, please do keep us updated on any new information in your case.

Edited July 17, 2006 by rahma