The Saga Continues.....

[AngelK96 0]

Are these discussions between newly converts to islam and people who are born muslim a common occurrence?

[Veiled Princess 1]

Are these discussions between newly converts to islam and people who are born muslim a common occurrence?

Not for me.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I asked you for the proofs from the Quran and Sunnah first. Instead of giving me any you just fill the screen with your personal opinions and feelings on the subject. Islam, as I understand it, is not made up by your feelings or opinions. There must be proof and you have not shown me that yet so there is no reason for me to continue the discussion.

I asked you to show that I am wrong and that a contract without a governing authority provided protection for the parties involved.

Are you saying, Layla, that protection or justice are NOT requirements in a Muslim marriage? That's what it sounds like.

The only elements of a marriage is that the woman agrees to it or has been consulted, she has a wali, a dowry is to be agreed upon, the marriage contract and two witnesses.

You are taking about the nikah, not the marriage. You can have a nikah, but if you have no authority to enforce it, you have no valid marriage. A contract requires the ability to enforce it, Islam requires the ability to enforce it.

I asked you before, could you go to Saudi Arabia, stand before Salafis there, and declare yourself married before God and not before law and expect to be treated as legitimately married? Since you won't answer this, I will.

The answer is NO.

Give me the proof from Quran and Sunnah that these elements are not enough OR that bidah is allowed. Otherwise stop directing comments to me because I'm not going to argue about it.

What bida, Layla? Give me proof from the Quran and Sunna that what I have said is bida. In the Prophet's day, state recogniion was required, as it is now. It is only the requirements for state recognition that vary. The Prophet declared certain elements or conditions of marriage to be invalid; he didn't allow anything to be seen as halal. Since you're so interested in avoiding bida, can you not see that bida is exactly what YOU are calling for? Not me.

If you're so worried about the muslimaat gettting our rights in the courts why not fight with them about recognizing the marriage contract the same as any other contract they would uphold in court?

Honey, I have, that's why I know so much more about it than do you.

What would be your advice to a muslim man who would like to marry a second wife in one of the western countries that don't allow it? Should he go ahead and get another marriage license even though it will send him to prison?

If there is no protection and equality in the union, there is no union, no second "wife", merely a mistress, and the couple is merely fornicating. Muslim men are not required to have more than one wife and Islam doesn't hand him a carte blanche "right" to more than one. There are limitations to the responsibilty of multiple marriage that must be considered. If he committing an act that not only violates the law of the land he lives in AND violates the rights of the women he would pretend to be married to, he deserves to go to jail.

Sorry, Layla, any Muslim who wants to pretend he has special rights under the law should move to a country that sanctions those rights. I am sorry to say that much of the revert population in the west shows many signs of immaturity in the way they simply believe, like a toddler, that if they want something, they should have it wihout considering the consequences or how it fits into Allah's intent. It's not the way it works. If that sounds condescending, well, it must be said.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I asked you to show that I am wrong and that a contract without a governing authority provided protection for the parties involved.

Are you saying, Layla, that protection or justice are NOT requirements in a Muslim marriage? That's what it sounds like.

The only elements of a marriage is that the woman agrees to it or has been consulted, she has a wali, a dowry is to be agreed upon, the marriage contract and two witnesses.

You are taking about the nikah, not the marriage. You can have a nikah, but if you have no authority to enforce it, you have no valid marriage. A contract requires the ability to enforce it, Islam requires the ability to enforce it.

I asked you before, could you go to Saudi Arabia, stand before Salafis there, and declare yourself married before God and not before law and expect to be treated as legitimately married? Since you won't answer this, I will.

The answer is NO.

Give me the proof from Quran and Sunnah that these elements are not enough OR that bidah is allowed. Otherwise stop directing comments to me because I'm not going to argue about it.

What bida, Layla? Give me proof from the Quran and Sunna that what I have said is bida. In the Prophet's day, state recogniion was required, as it is now. It is only the requirements for state recognition that vary. The Prophet declared certain elements or conditions of marriage to be invalid; he didn't allow anything to be seen as halal. Since you're so interested in avoiding bida, can you not see that bida is exactly what YOU are calling for? Not me.

If you're so worried about the muslimaat gettting our rights in the courts why not fight with them about recognizing the marriage contract the same as any other contract they would uphold in court?

Honey, I have, that's why I know so much more about it than do you.

What would be your advice to a muslim man who would like to marry a second wife in one of the western countries that don't allow it? Should he go ahead and get another marriage license even though it will send him to prison?

If there is no protection and equality in the union, there is no union, no second "wife", merely a mistress, and the couple is merely fornicating. Muslim men are not required to have more than one wife and Islam doesn't hand him a carte blanche "right" to more than one. There are limitations to the responsibilty of multiple marriage that must be considered. If he committing an act that not only violates the law of the land he lives in AND violates the rights of the women he would pretend to be married to, he deserves to go to jail.

Sorry, Layla, any Muslim who wants to pretend he has special rights under the law should move to a country that sanctions those rights. I am sorry to say that much of the revert population in the west shows many signs of immaturity in the way they simply believe, like a toddler, that if they want something, they should have it wihout considering the consequences or how it fits into Allah's intent. It's not the way it works. If that sounds condescending, well, it must be said.

Ok you're right.

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It is my belief that bidah is haraam and I have been kind enough to show you the proofs for that. You don't want to accept that and it's not my problem. I don't have to argue about it anymore and I'm not less of a person because I don't want to get caught up in that.

I recognize it not as proof, but as what you feel comfortable regurgitating. I don't see any knowledge, depth, or support for it other than you say that some cherry picked, disembodied ahadith are binding in and of themselves. That is not proof, but it is clear that it is all you have to offer to the discussion. So, you are right, you cannot continue. You have used all of your ammunition, and now, spend your energy avoiding answering my specific questions.

BTW, I know now that you are confusing what is required in a nikah ceremony, and what is required to make the nikah valid. You are talking only about the former, I have expanded my remarks to the latter. We continue to speak past each other.

Cya! I know now you have no more to add, and, so, I agree, this must end. May God bless.

Are these discussions between newly converts to islam and people who are born muslim a common occurrence?

How many born Muslims come here?

[Bosco 1]

Just curious Layla, do you consider fiqh to be bida?

Rebecca

[AngelK96 0]

It is my belief that bidah is haraam and I have been kind enough to show you the proofs for that. You don't want to accept that and it's not my problem. I don't have to argue about it anymore and I'm not less of a person because I don't want to get caught up in that.

I recognize it not as proof, but as what you feel comfortable regurgitating. I don't see any knowledge, depth, or support for it other than you say that some cherry picked, disembodied ahadith are binding in and of themselves. That is not proof, but it is clear that it is all you have to offer to the discussion. So, you are right, you cannot continue. You have used all of your ammunition, and now, spend your energy avoiding answering my specific questions.

BTW, I know now that you are confusing what is required in a nikah ceremony, and what is required to make the nikah valid. You are talking only about the former, I have expanded my remarks to the latter. We continue to speak past each other.

Cya! I know now you have no more to add, and, so, I agree, this must end. May God bless.

Are these discussions between newly converts to islam and people who are born muslim a common occurrence?

How many born Muslims come here?

szsz i am not talking about vj i am talking about out in the real world, but to answer i few but they dont' talk about islam.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

LOL! Thanks for the clarification, angel. In the outside world, well, at least my world, lots of discussions take place between new reverts and born Muslims.

[Veiled Princess 1]

BTW, I know now that you are confusing what is required in a nikah ceremony, and what is required to make the nikah valid. You are talking only about the former, I have expanded my remarks to the latter. We continue to speak past each other.

OK I'll bite... expand on this more so that I can understand what you're talking about?

Layla

[Together4ever 1]

Ok, you all know I just can't shut up sometimes, no matter how hard I try. Don't worry. No anger here. Finally.

I want to say one thing. It's simply an expression of my opinion to consider. I am not well versed in the quran or Islam, I am still learning, and I'm not much for pasting quotes. Ok... disclaimers out of the way, here it goes....

If you walk behind Allah you have no worries... even if you slip, trip or make mistakes.

If you walk behind humans (scholars, politicians, and yes even the prophets) you will only become confused and political in your opinions.

NOW... before everyone's hair goes curly over what I said about the prophet, please allow me to clarify first. What I mean is... Allah's word from his mouth. He set examples, he gave us guidelines... these are things to ponder, but he never intended anyone to walk behind him (aka worship him).

It's a wonderful thing to gather information from the writings and opinions of others, scholars and not-so-scholarly and consider them... but attach too tightly without thinking for yourself and you can blind yourself easily.

Ask me how I know! *rubs the several bumps on her head*

Nobody asked me... I just love to discuss things like this.

[AngelK96 0]

LOL! Thanks for the clarification, angel. In the outside world, well, at least my world, lots of discussions take place between new reverts and born Muslims.

You know what i see when i see you and layla going back and forth. Two arabs having a loud discussion

Peace to both of you!

[Veiled Princess 1]

szsz i am not talking about vj i am talking about out in the real world, but to answer i few but they dont' talk about islam.

Oh I thought you meant on here too. In life, it's common for me. My husband was born/raised muslim and we have in depth discussions about it almost every day. His knowledge of the deen is what attracted me most to him.

Not to mention other friends who share the same view and we'll discuss it regularly. Not all of them were raised muslim though.

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Layla's Arab? That's interesting.

BTW, I know now that you are confusing what is required in a nikah ceremony, and what is required to make the nikah valid. You are talking only about the former, I have expanded my remarks to the latter. We continue to speak past each other.

OK I'll bite... expand on this more so that I can understand what you're talking about?

At some point, I realized that you were still appealing to the ceremonial elements of a nikah contract - offer, acceptance(concurance of both parties and the wali), and consideration (mahr) - while I was arguing that what makes the contract, thus the marriage, valid is its ability to be enforced. I take your position to be that one is legitimately married if all the ceremonial elements are present; my position is that there is no valid contract without the continued acquiesance of an authority that has the power to uphold it. If there is no entity outside of the state to enforce your inheritance, to evenly distribute assets, to require support for your children, are you really married under Islam when Islam requires that the circumstances under which you enter into a contract be one that can also offer you justice and protection? I would say no.

I see you rejecting the elements beyond the ceremony that are also required by Islam to validate all social contracts entered into under al-mu`amalat , and marriage, being a social contract, is no exception.

Edited July 17, 2006 by szsz

[AngelK96 0]

My comment was such as seeing my in laws discussiig events and being very loud while doing it which i don't mind. So post on! you two are interesting!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My comment was such as seeing my in laws discussiig events and being very loud while doing it which i don't mind.

Funny you should mention that because that's how it was with my extended family when I was growing up. Still is, actually. Some of my relations can get really worked up. Me, I prefer to be a bit more mellow. There's enough stress in the world already.