The Saga Continues.....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

SZSZ I would like you to please show me the proof from either the Quran or the Sunnah that says that it is not enough to be married by an imam with two witnesses. You can do so in private so we don't get flamed in here anymore... or on the other group

Rebecca hit the nail on the head. I realize that you are Salafi, Layla, and that Salafi doctrine rejects much of the body of Islamic law. Yet, the validity of Islamic law is bound by not simply what is explicitly stated in the Quran and Sunnah, but what constitutes justice, a command which is stated more than 50 times in the Quran.

Of course, you know that there is no clergy class in Islam, so the blessings of an imam is not required. In the Prophet's day, he was the state, and recognizing a marriage was done thru him or his appointed representatives. As Rebecca has stated correctly, one is obliged to obey the law of the land in which you live. For example, if you go to Saudi Arabia where Salafis are the majority, declare yourself married, and cohabit without recognition of the state, you should expect a challenge. Saudi even requires approval from the King for some marriage, such as ones between a Saudi and a non-Gulf citizen.

Every state regulates the social interaction of its citizens, and Islam, being a way of life that seeks justice, fairness and mercy in God's name, does also. Al-mu'amalat is the law in Islamic jurisprudence that governs human interaction (al-ibadat being the law that governs worship). Mashlaha is the application of law in the public interest - the allowance of forbidding of acts that would harm the community. In order to rely on the enforcement of the responsibilities and rights constituted in a nikah, there must be an authority that has the power to intitiate and enforce the obligations taken on in marriage. In the case of an "Islamic marriage" with no power of the state behind it, there is no entity that can do justice in the event that one party deserts his/her vows.

So, in order for justice to be done, Islam requires that the parties involved seek recognition from the enforcement entity, be it the community empowered to shame or shun the offending party or the state of a nation. We are not illiterate peasents, alhamdulillah, we have the means to know what will best facitlitate out unions. Because goldenheart was mislead as to how to properly enter into a valid marriage, she now cannot turn to the imam who mislead her to repair her injury, ironically, she must turn to the state to illicite justice. None of us, as Muslims, can do anything for her.

And we all know that Salafi jurists and scholars make pronouncements from ijtihad and sources other than the Quran and the Sunna all the time. That is allowed in Islam, derivations from culture, social need, and other sources have always been utitlized in creating law. Islam is not bounded by the explicitly stated directives in the Quran and Sunna, Layla. In fact, the Quran is only about 10% law. We are also to seek the spirit of God's intent, and follow it to grant even greater favors on humanity in His Name.

You can claim that Islam has not changed since the time of the Prophet, or that if it doesn't exist in the Quran or the Sunna it doesn't exist in Islam, but history would prove you wrong. Islam did not begin with the Prophet - thinking that is a common mistake many Muslims make. Islam has existed since Adam, and the Message from God, and in its interpretation by the great early imams have been applied to do justice as required by each time, place and society.

I hope this helps expand on my earlier explanation.

PS: Asking for proof is not at all offensive, in fact, I expect it and smile when it comes. It is a sign of intellectual rigor and caring about the deen.

I guess this is why all of the mosque are now forcing people to get marriage license prior to them performing the ceremony.

Any legitimate imam in the west should insist on it.

Goldenheart, you are most welcome. It is enough thanks that I have been able to give you any hope. All blessings are from Allah. May He guide us all.

Edited July 15, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Sorry for the typos. I need to read what I type lol!

[Bosco 1]

Yes You're right it is a wali that is required. I had the imam as my wali since I am a convert and didn't have a wali so I just kind of assumed most other converts did the same.

Islam does not change... it is the same as it was in the time of the prophet.

If it's not in the Quran or ahadeeth then it doesn't exist in Islam.

The faith may not change but times certainly do. The Qur'an has been interpreted since the time of its revelation and continues to be done so to apply God's intention to the current times.

Rebecca

Edited July 15, 2006 by Bosco

[Together4ever 1]

Yes You're right it is a wali that is required. I had the imam as my wali since I am a convert and didn't have a wali so I just kind of assumed most other converts did the same.

Islam does not change... it is the same as it was in the time of the prophet.

If it's not in the Quran or ahadeeth then it doesn't exist in Islam.

The faith may not change but times certainly do. The Qur'an has been interpreted since the time of its revelation and continues to be done so to apply God's intention to the current times.

Rebecca

Thanks for posting this Rebecca. I was going to post something similar last night but hesitated. Religion, while unchanging, certainly can and does need to walk peacefully within modern society. I won't wax too spiritual for those here who find it distasteful, but when the head gets all involved with rationalizations we tend to confuse ourselves. It's that quiet place in your heart that really guides to the proper interpretations and actions.

Ok totally irrelevant, and I don't want to hijack the post.

[chiquita 0]

Yes You're right it is a wali that is required. I had the imam as my wali since I am a convert and didn't have a wali so I just kind of assumed most other converts did the same.

Islam does not change... it is the same as it was in the time of the prophet.

If it's not in the Quran or ahadeeth then it doesn't exist in Islam.

The faith may not change but times certainly do. The Qur'an has been interpreted since the time of its revelation and continues to be done so to apply God's intention to the current times.

Rebecca

Thanks for posting this Rebecca. I was going to post something similar last night but hesitated. Religion, while unchanging, certainly can and does need to walk peacefully within modern society. I won't wax too spiritual for those here who find it distasteful, but when the head gets all involved with rationalizations we tend to confuse ourselves. It's that quiet place in your heart that really guides to the proper interpretations and actions.

Ok totally irrelevant, and I don't want to hijack the post.

I really enjoyed reading this info, I am learning.

chi

[babybunny 2]

SZSZ I would like you to please show me the proof from either the Quran or the Sunnah that says that it is not enough to be married by an imam with two witnesses. You can do so in private so we don't get flamed in here anymore... or on the other group

Thanks

Layla

Layla,

I recently learned that in Islam a marriage is valid with the Imam and two witnesses, however, it is not recognized as a marriage in the USA without the marriage certificate and for immigration purposes. However, there are several States that would recognize the marriage as a common law marriage, Denver included.

The way I understood SZSZ post is...the telephonic marriage is not part of the Islamic practices and any marriage you perform at the mosque must be registered with the court. I guess this is why all of the mosque are now forcing people to get marriage license prior to them performing the ceremony.

I agree!

I was married islamic and we turned around had the Marriage registared.

The laws are such that if you marry islamic or whatever kind you have you have to have it registared.

when you dont have it registared you get into problems. For some reasons Layla is failing to understand its cheating the system. you can get married with the Imam and two witness. but, you better then get the marriage registared. when you dont your breaking the rules. Proxy marriage is not valid for immigration. infact alot of states dont reconize marriage by proxy. If you marry by proxy in one state and its not reconized in that said state then your marriage did not happen. which by the way marriage by proxy is expensive. case, people dont know what that is. its basicly 2 people standing in place of the bride and groom at a wedding and its done by phone.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I'm not talking about various countries recognizing it or not. I understand that in order for most country's governments to recognize a marriage it must be registered with the state, I don't have an issue with doing that. My point is this... to say it's not recognized by Allah is wrong because there is nothing from Quran or Sunnah to back it up.

It's perfectly legal for a man and a woman to live together and have sex in this country without even entertaining the thought of marriage but that doesn't make it right just because it's within the laws of the land.

As far as the deen changing, I disagree. If it's not supported by Quran and Sunnah it is bidah and rasool Allah (sal allahu alayhi wa salaam) said that all bidah is misguidance and leads to annar.

That includes any bidah that salafi scholars may try to add but they don't. Salafi scholars are the only ones who try their best to stay away from bidah and keep it out of the deen. They may not be perfect but it's certainly the closest thing we've got.

On the authority of Aisha, radiallahu anha, who said: rasool Allah said:

"Whoever introduces a matter into this affair of ours, which is not from it, will have it rejected."

Saheeh al-Bukhari (2/544 No. 1425), Saheeh Muslim

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm not talking about various countries recognizing it or not. I understand that in order for most country's governments to recognize a marriage it must be registered with the state, I don't have an issue with doing that. My point is this... to say it's not recognized by Allah is wrong because there is nothing from Quran or Sunnah to back it up.

Allah recognizes our deeds when they are done as well as we can do them. Allah prescribes the law, and His law says we are to produce an orderly society with laws, rewards and punishments. There is no order if you have people doing as they please and claiming that is what Allah wants. There is nothing from the Quran or Sunnah or the history of the Muslim ummah that you can produce to show that simply doing as you please to institute a marriage is what Allah wants. You may feel a need to poke the west in the eye, but the FACT is, there is no entity to do justice for you when you follow your desires. Allah is the God of the east and the west, Layla.

We are Allah's caliphs on earth, and we are here to do His bidding. If He prescribes shura, who can enforce it? If He prescribes divorce, who can facilitate it? You have to understand, sister, that the nikah is a contract, not a sacrament, as it is in Christianity, and that may be where you are getting confused. A contract consists of three elements - offer, consideration, acceptance - and this is true in all contracts, secular or Islamic. A contract needs to be enforced. Who will do the enforcement if there is not one in power to do so? Allah tells us that He will help those who help themselves. He will not be likely to enforce the contract Homself, but will expect us, following His guidance, to apply His law, His desire for justice, for fairness, for a correct outcome, to a proper result.

While it is true that Allah watches over all that we do, it is not true that He acts directly to ensure the right outcome. That, we must do for ourselves, and He has given us the path to follow.

It's perfectly legal for a man and a woman to live together and have sex in this country without even entertaining the thought of marriage but that doesn't make it right just because it's within the laws of the land.

Actually, there is nothing legal or illegal about cohabitation out of wedlock; the law isn't about right or wrong, it is about rememdies, and you have none if your union has no support from an authoritative entity. It is interesting that you should use this as an example, though, since "living in sin" is the result of a willful "Islamic marriage" without state recognition.

I'm not sure why you have a disconnect between the fact that the state was the authority during the Prophet's day. People didn't just willy nilly apply the law as they saw fit and without correction. They didn't juat marry as they wished, claiming that Allah approved. Islam is about society, Layla, society based on law, morality, order, and faith, not just one or the other.

As far as the deen changing, I disagree. If it's not supported by Quran and Sunnah it is bidah and rasool Allah (sal allahu alayhi wa salaam) said that all bidah is misguidance and leads to annar.

That includes any bidah that salafi scholars may try to add but they don't. Salafi scholars are the only ones who try their best to stay away from bidah and keep it out of the deen. They may not be perfect but it's certainly the closest thing we've got.

There has been much bida throughout the history of Islam. That, in and of itself, is not a bad thing; bida can be good. The very act of being on the Internet is a bida, Layla. Another example, Islam regulated slavery and discouraged it as unIslamic, but never outlawed it explicitly, recognizing it as an intregal means of commerce at the time. Saudi Arabia did not ban slavery until the 1960s, and now, there are Salafi scholars in the Kingdom calling for its return. Do you wish to see slavery return and endorsed by Muslims as correct simply because it existed during the time of the Prophet? Would it be bida to prohibit it altogether?

Bida is a part of Islam, Layla. Why? Because although the implementation of Islam is incremental, Islam itself is dynamic, not static. It doesn't require us to take on more of a burden than we can at a time, but it does expect us to change and grow, and for our acts and understanding to become more enlightened. The Prophet revealed the revelations of the Quran over 23 years, but Islam and the advances it blesses us with did not die with him; we are to elevate and imprive our circumstances within the spirit of Islam every chance we get.

On the authority of Aisha, radiallahu anha, who said: rasool Allah said:

"Whoever introduces a matter into this affair of ours, which is not from it, will have it rejected."

Saheeh al-Bukhari (2/544 No. 1425), Saheeh Muslim

No hadith exists in a vacuum. Perhaps this article will be helpful to you.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/bida.htm

Layla, you have every right to believe as you wish, but I have every right to challenge you as you do me. We are called on by God to be protectors one of another, to enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil. I will seek the just path and those paths that do not lead to justice will be called upon to justify their utility in Allah's intent. I believe you to be confused between Christian doctrine of marriage as an ethereal sacrament blessed by God and Islamic doctrine of marriage as a legal framework within which to do good for society. I have never been a convert, so perhaps I need to be educated as to what comes over emotionally and spiritually when one leaves one faith and moves to another.

Insha'allah, we can continue as sisters in Islam with a mutual respect even as we disagree.

Salaam to you, dear Layla.

[AngelK96 0]

szsz.

I am not muslim, but my husband is and i like reading about islam because one day I will have children and some day may have to answer their questions about islam or direct them to someone who can answer. I find your posts very informing and very easy to understand. Sorry to hijack the thread. Just wanted to point that out!

Angel

[chiquita 0]

DITTO, me too!

chi

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I was not able to edit to add this:

There is no bida in requiring protection for parties engaged in social interactions.

There is no bida in requiring there to be an authority outside of a marriage that can enforce rights and uphold responsibilities set out in the marriage contract.

There is no bida in allowing for public recognition of a marriage contract.

There is no bida in maintaining a legal authority that can dissolve the contract, setting extensions and limits on the obligations entered into by its original provisions.

All of these elements are required by the Quran and Sunna, and they all exist when an Islamic marriage is recognized by the state. Yet, when you circumvent the law and don't provide for state recognition, you are lacking each element, and have elected a hardship to prove that you are entitled to the very protection Islam requires . That is a bida, and not a good one.

Ladies, thank you.

Edited July 15, 2006 by szsz

[Bosco 1]

I'm not talking about various countries recognizing it or not. I understand that in order for most country's governments to recognize a marriage it must be registered with the state, I don't have an issue with doing that. My point is this... to say it's not recognized by Allah is wrong because there is nothing from Quran or Sunnah to back it up.

It's perfectly legal for a man and a woman to live together and have sex in this country without even entertaining the thought of marriage but that doesn't make it right just because it's within the laws of the land.

As far as the deen changing, I disagree. If it's not supported by Quran and Sunnah it is bidah and rasool Allah (sal allahu alayhi wa salaam) said that all bidah is misguidance and leads to annar.

That includes any bidah that salafi scholars may try to add but they don't. Salafi scholars are the only ones who try their best to stay away from bidah and keep it out of the deen. They may not be perfect but it's certainly the closest thing we've got.

On the authority of Aisha, radiallahu anha, who said: rasool Allah said:

"Whoever introduces a matter into this affair of ours, which is not from it, will have it rejected."

Saheeh al-Bukhari (2/544 No. 1425), Saheeh Muslim

As far as it being perfectly legal for a man and woman to have sex in this country without legal repercussions, Muslims are expected to follow the law of the land unless it contradicts sharia. No one is saying "you must have extramarital sex to live in this country". However, nearly ever country says a marriage must be registered to be enforcable. One of the main purposes of marriage in Islam is to give family both a spiritual as well as legal foundation. There is no legal foundation if there is no legal recourse.

Again, going back to Muslims being required to adhere to the law of the land you are living in. In many Muslim countries, extramarital sex is against the law. A child born out of wedlock often has no paternal rights. So, by not registering a marriage and engaging in sex, you are breaking the law of the land and any child born as a result could potentially have "no father" nor would the woman and child have any rights to inheritance.

The Qur'an doesn't have to tell us that crack is bad to realize it is haram. Is it bida to say crack is bad because it is not in the Qur'an? The Qur'an and ahadith are always interpreted to find what the intent of God's words were. If the intent of God in outlining the rules of marriage was to in part to give legal recourse to both parties, to guide in inheritance, etc., and that is no longer enforcable by Islamic marriage alone, is it bida to preserve God's intent? Do we follow only the words of God but overlook their meaning/spirit/intent - in other words, if the foundations of an Islamic marriage cannot be enforced, is it really still an Islamic marriage?

[chiquita 0]

Very interesting dialog.

chi

[Veiled Princess 1]

Allahu Akbr

SZSZ, I'm sorry but your statement that bidah is good is a warning to me not to trust you. I know it's hard on the internet to know who the other person behind the screen is and for all I know you could be some pagan man pretending to be a muslim woman to make Islam look bad. If all that you have said here since joining has been true then I commend you for being muslim for so long and for studying it. All the studying in the world doesn't count for much when you're studing the wrong thing. Quality above quantity I don't know what sect you ascribe yourself to and at this point I don't really care. Refer to the above link to read what our prophet said about bidah (innovation)....

And he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire." Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (1/224) from Jaabir bin Abdullaah and it is saheeh as declared by Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmoo' ul-Fataawaa (3/58).

"This matter has also been indicated by Imaam Maalik (rahimahullaah) in a reported saying of his that ought to be recorded in golden ink. And it is his saying: "Whosoever introduces into Islaam an innovation, which he deems is good, then he has claimed that Muhammad has betrayed (the trust of conveying) the Message. Read the saying of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic: 'This day I have completed your Religion for you, and I have perfected My favour upon you, and I am pleased with Islaam as a Religion for you.' [surat-ul-Maa'idah: 3] So whatever was not (part of) the Religion on that day, is not (part of) the Religion on this day. And the last part of this ummah (nation) will not be rectified, except by that which its first part was rectified by."

"Ibn Taymiyyah has a nice passage in one of his books showing that: "In fact, the kufr of Jews and Christians is because of "Bid'ah". They introduced new things into the religion and those things took them completely away from the true message of Musa (Moses) and Isaa (Jesus) Alaihumma Salam". "

I am not saying it's haraam to get a marriage license/certificate from the state/country.... We are told in the Quran to honor our contracts and if you reside in a country who has a law that you have to have one of those certificates then you are obligated to obey it. In this case, however, it is not illegal to NOT have one. In America, we have something called "common law marriage" and no one is thrown in jail for NOT getting married. For immigration it IS required and I will be the first in line for mine when Yousuf gets here!

You're all totally missing my point. I'm not saying getting a marriage certificate is bidah... I'm saying, to make a statement that it's NOT accepted by Allah is bidah. I have a marriage contract and a contract is a contract in this country. I have news for you.. the kufar government of the WEST will NOT honor your rights in case of a divorce anyway! In most states, because of that piece of paper you love so much, they make you wait an entire year and spend countless hours in front of a judge if your husband divorces you. They force you to be alone for at least a year before they'll allow you to remarry. It is your Allah given right to be able to marry again after the waiting period HE prescribed for us.. not what the kufar prescribe for us. So please don't talk to me about "rights" in this kufr west.

The statements you have made SZSZ, here on this thread as well as others, cause me to fear that you are in direct opposition of Allah and His messenger and I will not accept any advise regarding the deen from you.

You ladies can love the elogance of this imposter's words all you want but as for me, I seek refuge in Allah.

In the future SZSZ it is not necessary to call my name every other line when you're replying to me. I am not a child!

Layla

[AngelK96 0]

This is getting interesting!