The Saga Continues.....

[dmartmar 1]

Asalaamu Aleykum,

For those of you that are familiar with my case and what happened to my fiance at the POE in Atlanta, I would like to give you an update on where we are now in the process.

I contacted an attorney and found out that for Immigration purposes you must be legally marry in order to file for a Spousal visa....Furthermore, in order to get married both parties must be present at the ceremony and the marriage must be consumated. Therefore, you can NOT have a proxy marriage.

In our case, my fiance called the Imam over the telephone and agreed to marry me, which is part of his custom and our religious practice.

OK, I filed a waiver to remove the 5-year exclusion and contacted our Senator. In turn, the Representative from the Senator's office thought the entire case was a bowl of do-do, however she sent an email to the Embassy. The Embassy replied that they wanted to see my fiance for an interview on what happened at the POE. My fiance went to his interview yesterday. My fiance said he was iinterrogated by the CO and a rep from DHS. He was under the impression that the interview would be about is exclusion from the POE. However they asked him questions like:

How old is your sister, when is her birthday? What jobs did you have in your country? Why did your fiance decide to convert to Islam!! WHAT THE HECK!!!! Does your fiance go to the MOSQUE!!!! When your fiance visit you here in Germany, did she attend the mosque????

He said that he became a bit perturbed by the questions and asked them...Why are you not asking me questions about my entry denial?

Their response was....WE ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE NOT MARRIED, WE ARE HIGH INVESTIGATORS AND WE KNOW EVERYTHING !!!!

My fiance response was...So you excluded me for what reasons????? They did not answer him. He said after talking with them for three hours they told him goodbye and have a good day.

NO INFORMATION ON HIS VISA STATUS! NO INFORMATION ON WHAT WE SHOULD DO NEXT!!! NOTHING!!!!

He said that he felt like a mouse in a cat maze and they wasted another three hours of his time.

After being in jail overnight at the POE and being interrogated another three ours yesterday. He has come to the conclusion that he do not wish to be in a country that don't want him.

Beggars can't be choosers.

[sarah and hicham 3]

Was that comment really necessary?

[Together4ever 1]

You really have to wonder what people get out of making such remarks in a thread that is obviously traumatic for the poster... (and any other thread for that matter). It's a sad thing and the reason I'm not posting here much anymore.

Goldenheart, I hope this is all put to right soon. You are both in my prayers.

[Nagishkaw 510]

You really have to wonder what people get out of making such remarks in a thread that is obviously traumatic for the poster... (and any other thread for that matter). It's a sad thing and the reason I'm not posting here much anymore.

Goldenheart, I hope this is all put to right soon. You are both in my prayers.

I totally agree, that comment was one that should have been left where it belongs....................in the comic books.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

In our case, my fiance called the Imam over the telephone and agreed to marry me, which is part of his custom and our religious practice.

I've been Muslim 53 years, never heard of this as being part of Islamic religious practice because it isn't. A lot of things that are cultural are passed off as Islamic, but they are not. Seems to me that some converts who don't have an adequate understanding of Islamic law muddy their waters by taking legal advice from untrained non-legal sources, such as this imam in Denver. There is no such thing as "Islamic marriage" without the concurrance of a legal authority that can enforce your marriage contract. Simple as that. Without that provision, there is no marriage that would be recognized by the governing authorities, period. So, insha'allah, others will learn from this unfortunate episode and not fall into the romance of a non-existant "Islamic marriage".

However, goldenheart needs help now, so I have found that there is a procedure to make proxy marriages legal in Colorado, thus recognized by the state and subject to enforcement by a governing legal entity.

Solemnization and registration

(2) If a party to a marriage is unable to be present at the solemnization, such party may authorize in writing a third person to act as such party's proxy. If the person solemnizing the marriage is satisfied that the absent party is unable to be present and has consented to the marriage, such person may solemnize the marriage by proxy. If such person is not satisfied, the parties may petition the district court for an order permitting the marriage to be solemnized by proxy.

As you can see, a proxy marriage is not merely one done over the phone or with the physical absense of one party. It is a proxy when a third party stands in for the absent party. It also requires paperwork prior to the ceremony. In this case, there was no third party stand-in, thus, no proxy, making the ceremony not in compliance with the requirements for a proxy marriage - there was no proxy. The agents are correct that there is no marriage, proxy or Islamic, so that is not even an issue here.

The agents are acting on the perception that there was an intentional deception involved, and that is what they do in cases such as these. Insha'allah, your senator can help them see that it is merely the blunder of innocent parties who did not know the law and trusted the wrong source in an sincere effort to make their association halal in God's eyes. What is required in law is what is lacking, but I have no doubt that Allah appreciates your efforts to please Him.

I hope only the best for you both!

Edited July 14, 2006 by szsz

[goldenheart 0]

In our case, my fiance called the Imam over the telephone and agreed to marry me, which is part of his custom and our religious practice.

I've been Muslim 53 years, never heard of this as being part of Islamic religious practice because it isn't. A lot of things that are cultural are passed off as Islamic, but they are not. Seems to me that some converts who don't have an adequate understanding of Islamic law muddy their waters by taking legal advice from untrained non-legal sources, such as this imam in Denver. There is no such thing as "Islamic marriage" without the concurrance of a legal authority that can enforce your marriage contract. Simple as that. Without that provision, there is no marriage that would be recognized by the governing authorities, period. So, insha'allah, others will learn from this unfortunate episode and not fall into the romance of a non-existant "Islamic marriage".

However, goldenheart needs help now, so I have found that there is a procedure to make proxy marriages legal in Colorado, thus recognized by the state and subject to enforcement by a governing legal entity.

Solemnization and registration

(2) If a party to a marriage is unable to be present at the solemnization, such party may authorize in writing a third person to act as such party's proxy. If the person solemnizing the marriage is satisfied that the absent party is unable to be present and has consented to the marriage, such person may solemnize the marriage by proxy. If such person is not satisfied, the parties may petition the district court for an order permitting the marriage to be solemnized by proxy.

As you can see, a proxy marriage is not merely one done over the phone or with the physical absense of one party. It is a proxy when a third party stands in for the absent party. It also requires paperwork prior to the ceremony. In this case, there was no third party stand-in, thus, no proxy, making the ceremony not in compliance with the requirements for a proxy marriage - there was no proxy. The agents are correct that there is no marriage, proxy or Islamic, so that is not even an issue here.

The agents are acting on the perception that there was an intentional deception involved, and that is what they do in cases such as these. Insha'allah, your senator can help them see that it is merely the blunder of innocent parties who did not know the law and trusted the wrong source in an sincere effort to make their association halal in God's eyes. What is required in law is what is lacking, but I have no doubt that Allah appreciates your efforts to please Him.

I hope only the best for you both!

YOU ARE 100% CORRECT!!!! MAY ALLAH REWARD YOU WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND ADVICE TO ME. I TRULY LOVE YOU

I am a convert to Islam and I recently realized that the whole telephone ceremony was culturally influenced and not islamically sounding. Therefore, the islamic ceremony is no longer accepted in the mosque without a valid marriage certificate. However, I was told that if I did this in front of 4 witnesses it would not be a sin for me to be alone with my fiance, I pray that Allah forgive me for any error on my part. I'm posting my pain and traumatic experiences for the other sisters to not fall in my footstep. As you see, something so simple and innocent can turn into something so miserable. I truly want for my sister, what I want for myself and I never want anyone to experience the hardship and pain that I have over the last two years.

BTW, You mention the proxy marriage...If I decide to go this route how can I file for the spousal visa when the application clearly say...BOTH PARTIES MUST BE PRESENT DURING THE CEREMONY???

The only option I have now is...wait to the 5 year ban is lifted (if the waiver is approved) and go to Germany to marry. Also, would a German marriage certificate be enough to refile for a CR1 visa? Does the USA acknowledge a German marriage?

Also, I'm trying to do as much as I can without a lawyer because I'm falling into a financial crisis at this moment. I never thought the expenses I had for a simple K1 visa would exhaust my bank account.

YOU ARE 100% CORRECT!!!! MAY ALLAH REWARD YOU WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND ADVICE TO ME. I TRULY LOVE YOU

BTW>>>>>the term love you is like a part of my muslim family>>>>>>>Please don't get offended.

Beggars can't be choosers.

May Allah never bring hardship for you that is too much to handle.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Salaam, goldenheart. I am humbled to have been of any assistance to you.

However, I was told that if I did this in front of 4 witnesses it would not be a sin for me to be alone with my fiance, I pray that Allah forgive me for any error on my part.

Sister, our Nabi taught that even those trained to interpret the law can be wrong and still receive credit for their effort. You are not trained in the law, and you made the effort to do what you believed would please Him. Do not forget that He loves us and tells us that He will be most merciful and most forgiving to those who look to Him. When you step toward Him, He will run toward you.

BTW, You mention the proxy marriage...If I decide to go this route how can I file for the spousal visa when the application clearly say...BOTH PARTIES MUST BE PRESENT DURING THE CEREMONY??? The only option I have now is...wait to the 5 year ban is lifted (if the waiver is approved) and go to Germany to marry. Also, would a German marriage certificate be enough to refile for a CR1 visa? Does the USA acknowledge a German marriage?

Also, I'm trying to do as much as I can without a lawyer because I'm falling into a financial crisis at this moment. I never thought the expenses I had for a simple K1 visa would exhaust my bank account.

I am not a lawyer, so may I suggest this low-cost, but effective option:

http://www.catholiccharitiesdenver.org/ser...immigration.cfm

Give them a call, and stay on the senator, too. I hope you called Salazar; he’s all for opening the borders.

Edited July 14, 2006 by szsz

[babybunny 2]

Asalaamu Aleykum,

For those of you that are familiar with my case and what happened to my fiance at the POE in Atlanta, I would like to give you an update on where we are now in the process.

I contacted an attorney and found out that for Immigration purposes you must be legally marry in order to file for a Spousal visa....Furthermore, in order to get married both parties must be present at the ceremony and the marriage must be consumated. Therefore, you can NOT have a proxy marriage.

In our case, my fiance called the Imam over the telephone and agreed to marry me, which is part of his custom and our religious practice.

OK, I filed a waiver to remove the 5-year exclusion and contacted our Senator. In turn, the Representative from the Senator's office thought the entire case was a bowl of do-do, however she sent an email to the Embassy. The Embassy replied that they wanted to see my fiance for an interview on what happened at the POE. My fiance went to his interview yesterday. My fiance said he was iinterrogated by the CO and a rep from DHS. He was under the impression that the interview would be about is exclusion from the POE. However they asked him questions like:

How old is your sister, when is her birthday? What jobs did you have in your country? Why did your fiance decide to convert to Islam!! WHAT THE HECK!!!! Does your fiance go to the MOSQUE!!!! When your fiance visit you here in Germany, did she attend the mosque????

He said that he became a bit perturbed by the questions and asked them...Why are you not asking me questions about my entry denial?

Their response was....WE ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE NOT MARRIED, WE ARE HIGH INVESTIGATORS AND WE KNOW EVERYTHING !!!!

My fiance response was...So you excluded me for what reasons????? They did not answer him. He said after talking with them for three hours they told him goodbye and have a good day.

NO INFORMATION ON HIS VISA STATUS! NO INFORMATION ON WHAT WE SHOULD DO NEXT!!! NOTHING!!!!

He said that he felt like a mouse in a cat maze and they wasted another three hours of his time.

After being in jail overnight at the POE and being interrogated another three ours yesterday. He has come to the conclusion that he do not wish to be in a country that don't want him.

Beggars can't be choosers.

what the hell is this dubage?

[goldenheart 0]

Salaam, goldenheart. I am humbled to have been of any assistance to you.

However, I was told that if I did this in front of 4 witnesses it would not be a sin for me to be alone with my fiance, I pray that Allah forgive me for any error on my part.

Sister, our Nabi taught that even those trained to interpret the law can be wrong and still receive credit for their effort. You are not trained in the law, and you made the effort to do what you believed would please Him. Do not forget that He loves us and tells us that He will be most merciful and most forgiving to those who look to Him. When you step toward Him, He will run toward you.

BTW, You mention the proxy marriage...If I decide to go this route how can I file for the spousal visa when the application clearly say...BOTH PARTIES MUST BE PRESENT DURING THE CEREMONY??? The only option I have now is...wait to the 5 year ban is lifted (if the waiver is approved) and go to Germany to marry. Also, would a German marriage certificate be enough to refile for a CR1 visa? Does the USA acknowledge a German marriage?

Also, I'm trying to do as much as I can without a lawyer because I'm falling into a financial crisis at this moment. I never thought the expenses I had for a simple K1 visa would exhaust my bank account.

I am not a lawyer, so may I suggest this low-cost, but effective option:

http://www.catholiccharitiesdenver.org/ser...immigration.cfm

Give them a call, and stay on the senator, too. I hope you called Salazar; he’s all for opening the borders.

Walaikum Salaam, thank you sooo much!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I called Salazar and the rep is all on it. They are a bit upset to find out what happened to my honey at the embassy. Also, from day one of my petition I disclosed our religion and what happened at the mosque. I never kept anything a secret from my government. Salazar's rep sent another email to the embassy. I hope to get an answer soon.

thank you for the phone number. My Allah reward you and your family. I can never repay you, but I can make duaa for you and your family.

Beggars can't be choosers.

what the hell is this dubage?

Shon, don't worry about that.

[Omid 0]

Insha'Allah everything will work out for the best - you'll be in my duas

[Veiled Princess 1]

I've been Muslim 53 years, never heard of this as being part of Islamic religious practice because it isn't. A lot of things that are cultural are passed off as Islamic, but they are not. Seems to me that some converts who don't have an adequate understanding of Islamic law muddy their waters by taking legal advice from untrained non-legal sources, such as this imam in Denver. There is no such thing as "Islamic marriage" without the concurrance of a legal authority that can enforce your marriage contract. Simple as that. Without that provision, there is no marriage that would be recognized by the governing authorities, period. So, insha'allah, others will learn from this unfortunate episode and not fall into the romance of a non-existant "Islamic marriage".

SZSZ I would like you to please show me the proof from either the Quran or the Sunnah that says that it is not enough to be married by an imam with two witnesses. You can do so in private so we don't get flamed in here anymore... or on the other group

Thanks

Layla

Edited July 14, 2006 by veiledprincesslayla

[goldenheart 0]

I've been Muslim 53 years, never heard of this as being part of Islamic religious practice because it isn't. A lot of things that are cultural are passed off as Islamic, but they are not. Seems to me that some converts who don't have an adequate understanding of Islamic law muddy their waters by taking legal advice from untrained non-legal sources, such as this imam in Denver. There is no such thing as "Islamic marriage" without the concurrance of a legal authority that can enforce your marriage contract. Simple as that. Without that provision, there is no marriage that would be recognized by the governing authorities, period. So, insha'allah, others will learn from this unfortunate episode and not fall into the romance of a non-existant "Islamic marriage".

SZSZ I would like you to please show me the proof from either the Quran or the Sunnah that says that it is not enough to be married by an imam with two witnesses. You can do so in private so we don't get flamed in here anymore... or on the other group

Thanks

Layla

Layla,

I recently learned that in Islam a marriage is valid with the Imam and two witnesses, however, it is not recognized as a marriage in the USA without the marriage certificate and for immigration purposes. However, there are several States that would recognize the marriage as a common law marriage, Denver included.

The way I understood SZSZ post is...the telephonic marriage is not part of the Islamic practices and any marriage you perform at the mosque must be registered with the court. I guess this is why all of the mosque are now forcing people to get marriage license prior to them performing the ceremony.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Layla,

I recently learned that in Islam a marriage is valid with the Imam and two witnesses, however, it is not recognized as a marriage in the USA without the marriage certificate and for immigration purposes. However, there are several States that would recognize the marriage as a common law marriage, Denver included.

The way I understood SZSZ post is...the telephonic marriage is not part of the Islamic practices and any marriage you perform at the mosque must be registered with the court. I guess this is why all of the mosque are now forcing people to get marriage license prior to them performing the ceremony.

I agree that the telephone marriage is not legal but she said it's not legit unless it's registered with the court. They didn't have marriage certificates back then so I would like to see the proof from Quran and Sunnah. When someone tells you something about Islam it is your right to ask for the proof. I don't think asking for the proof should be seen as offensive.

Layla

[Bosco 1]

I've been Muslim 53 years, never heard of this as being part of Islamic religious practice because it isn't. A lot of things that are cultural are passed off as Islamic, but they are not. Seems to me that some converts who don't have an adequate understanding of Islamic law muddy their waters by taking legal advice from untrained non-legal sources, such as this imam in Denver. There is no such thing as "Islamic marriage" without the concurrance of a legal authority that can enforce your marriage contract. Simple as that. Without that provision, there is no marriage that would be recognized by the governing authorities, period. So, insha'allah, others will learn from this unfortunate episode and not fall into the romance of a non-existant "Islamic marriage".

SZSZ I would like you to please show me the proof from either the Quran or the Sunnah that says that it is not enough to be married by an imam with two witnesses. You can do so in private so we don't get flamed in here anymore... or on the other group

Thanks

Layla

Layla,

I am not SZSZ but I will give you my understanding of what she is saying.

There is nothing explicit in the Qur'an or ahadith that states a marriage requires more than a mahr and two Muslim witnesses (an Imam is not required). The marriage requires a mahr, two Muslim witnesses and consent of both parties (usually done by a wali in the case of a Muslim woman). In the time of the Prophet, the community at large would recognize such a marriage. Both parties would be protected because the marriage is recognized.

That is not the case anymore. Islamic marriages alone are not recognized marriages in most countries, including many Muslim countries. It is encouraged that Muslims publicize their marriages - registering a marriage is seen as a way to let the community know the marriage took place.

Most scholars also agree that according to the Qur'an and ahadith, Muslims are to respect and obey the laws of the country they reside in, unless those laws are in direct contradiction with sharia. Therefore, it would follow that marriage should not only follow Islamic law but the law of the country in which you are residing (Muslim or otherwise).

Rebecca

Edited July 15, 2006 by Bosco

[Veiled Princess 1]

Layla,

I am not SZSZ but I will give you my understanding of what she is saying.

There is nothing explicit in the Qur'an or ahadith that states a marriage requires more than a mahr and two Muslim witnesses (an Imam is not required). The marriage requires a mahr, two Muslim witnesses and consent of both parties (usually done by a wali in the case of a Muslim woman). In the time of the Prophet, the community at large would recognize such a marriage. Both parties would be protected because the marriage is recognized.

That is not the case anymore. Islamic marriages alone are not recognized marriages in most countries, including many Muslim countries. It is encouraged that Muslims publicize their marriages - registering a marriage is seen as a way to let the community know the marriage took place.

Most scholars also agree that according to the Qur'an and ahadith, Muslims are to respect and obey the laws of the country they reside in, unless those laws are in direct contradiction with sharia. Therefore, it would follow that marriage should not only follow Islamic law but the law of the country in which you are residing (Muslim or otherwise).

Rebecca

Yes You're right it is a wali that is required. I had the imam as my wali since I am a convert and didn't have a wali so I just kind of assumed most other converts did the same.

Islam does not change... it is the same as it was in the time of the prophet.

If it's not in the Quran or ahadeeth then it doesn't exist in Islam.