The Saga Continues.....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No right or wrong. What a life!

[Together4ever 1]

Who is teaching people that religion isn't about right and wrong? It's certainly not about if it feels good, do it.

Sorry, folks, if I agree with anything Layla said, it's that we can't just make up the rules as we go along. Islam is more than rules, it's about living a beautiful life with God at your back, but it's hard to do that if you don't believe it has limits that require a belief in right of wrong.

[9.71] The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil

He said it, not I.

She did not say it is about no rights and wrongs in religion and certainly not about "if it feels good do it". What she means I understand clearly. It's about human perceptions. No 2 humans perceive ANYTHING in the same manner and this is the beauty of our creation. The act of perceiving and the judgements that follow it are based on experience, and although we can share similar experiences, they will not add up to processing the information in the same manner. This does not in any way undermine religion. The "Word of Allah/God" is ultimate, but human perception being unique allows each of us to hear it with a different voice.

Like the analogy of a group of people standing around a lovely odd-shaped stone... each person sees this stone from a unique angle, seeing different colors, shapes, and plays of light then the person standing next to him. They are, however, all perceiving the very same stone. The fact of the stone's existence does not change.

Of course that's a simple metaphor. This is what she meant by no right or wrong. If someone is perceiving, interpreting religion in a manner that is offensive... that is between him/her and Allah/God. If they are giving what is perceived as misinformation, that is also not only between him/her and Allah/God but also the responsibility of the receiver to discern. To be blunt, if a person wants to be spoon fed they will almost always be misled anyway.

We may walk the same religion, follow the same rules, but I can assure that we all experience all things in life uniquely. As the old saying goes... "no perception is invalid."

Edited July 19, 2006 by just_waiting

[deeshla 0]

I guess we just disagree on that. Which is not a problem for me.

I'm with you on this. And disagreeing is fine. There is diversity here. Some Muslims, some Christians, some Jews, maybe some Buddhists, agnostics, who knows... I think mutual respect is key and that means knowing when to stop the religion debate. The common thing that binds us all is our "visa journey" not our religion/spirituality/upbringing, etc. Diversity is an asset!

Kerewin, just want to show my support for what you wrote above.

Amanda

Who is teaching people that religion isn't about right and wrong? It's certainly not about if it feels good, do it.

Sorry, folks, if I agree with anything Layla said, it's that we can't just make up the rules as we go along. Islam is more than rules, it's about living a beautiful life with God at your back, but it's hard to do that if you don't believe it has limits that require a belief in right of wrong.

[9.71] The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil

He said it, not I.

She did not say it is about no rights and wrongs in religion and certainly not about "if it feels good do it". What she means I understand clearly. It's about human perceptions. No 2 humans perceive ANYTHING in the same manner and this is the beauty of our creation. The act of perceiving and the judgements that follow it are based on experience, and although we can share similar experiences, they will not add up to processing the information in the same manner. This does not in any way undermine religion. The "Word of Allah/God" is ultimate, but human perception being unique allows each of us to hear it with a different voice.

Like the analogy of a group of people standing around a lovely odd-shaped stone... each person sees this stone from a unique angle, seeing different colors, shapes, and plays of light then the person standing next to him. They are, however, all perceiving the very same stone. The fact of the stone's existence does not change.

Of course that's a simple metaphor. This is what she meant by no right or wrong. If someone is perceiving, interpreting religion in a manner that is offensive... that is between him/her and Allah/God. If they are giving what is perceived as misinformation, that is also not only between him/her and Allah/God but also the responsibility of the receiver to discern. To be blunt, if a person wants to be spoon fed they will almost always be misled anyway.

We may walk the same religion, follow the same rules, but I can assure that we all experience all things in life uniquely. As the old saying goes... "no perception is invalid."

Amen to this, too.

[samir_shannon 0]

drama drama you know what i bet God is just disgusted at how people on this earth are blowing each other up and killing over religion ... and doing it in his name... you know i think if i make it to heaven i will find christians, muslims, and jews there. cos God is a loving God he doesnt want to condemn his people, he looks into a persons heart. i have found good decent Godly people in all 3 of the religions.

Edited July 19, 2006 by samir_shannon

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have no idea what the above has to do with the content of the debate, so far. No one is debating Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism or anything else. We were discussing a very specific aspect of Islam.

I am not a moral relativist. In the west, moral relativism is a religion in itself, one I do not ascribe to. I have values that I can and do advocate, and I do not have the same spiritual reaction some do to the magic words "we must respect all views", or "there is no right or wrong" or any other laisse faire, moral relativist perspective that seem to stop some in their tracks. If we are not all the same, then you also have to acknowledge that not all of us are moral relativists.

If you are a liberal and you believe that all have a right to free speech, then why do you believe that those magic words should put to death the diversity of thought you so revere? I also have the right to interpret the words of others as I see them, as you do, and maybe not see them the same way you do. You seem to agree about that, so when it happens, don't be surprised! If a person has no wish to speak for themselves, the interpretation of others can be taken with a grain of salt.

Perhaps I am perceived by some to be a hard ###. I assure you, I am not, but when discussing religion, I am values-centered and do not slub off moral relativism without comment. Whatever self-righteousness you see in me, you will also see in the mirror. As kerwin said, we can disagree and that's alright with me. So . .

Edited July 19, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

If you have no idea what moral relativism is, here's a link that will explain it for you. You live with it every day, so you may as well know it when you see it so you can decide for yourself whether you agree with it or not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4460673.stm

In the interest of religious diversity, the movement against it isn't limited to Islam.

Edited July 19, 2006 by szsz

[goldenheart 0]

MMMMM....Can we get back to my case?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Sure, anything new, coz so far, no one has expressed an ability to do more for you than offer support.

I hope there's something new and positive. Give it up, girl!

[morocco4ever 63]

Who is teaching people that religion isn't about right and wrong? It's certainly not about if it feels good, do it.

Sorry, folks, if I agree with anything Layla said, it's that we can't just make up the rules as we go along. Islam is more than rules, it's about living a beautiful life with God at your back, but it's hard to do that if you don't believe it has limits that require a belief in right of wrong.

[9.71] The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil

He said it, not I.

She did not say it is about no rights and wrongs in religion and certainly not about "if it feels good do it". What she means I understand clearly. It's about human perceptions. No 2 humans perceive ANYTHING in the same manner and this is the beauty of our creation. The act of perceiving and the judgements that follow it are based on experience, and although we can share similar experiences, they will not add up to processing the information in the same manner. This does not in any way undermine religion. The "Word of Allah/God" is ultimate, but human perception being unique allows each of us to hear it with a different voice.

Like the analogy of a group of people standing around a lovely odd-shaped stone... each person sees this stone from a unique angle, seeing different colors, shapes, and plays of light then the person standing next to him. They are, however, all perceiving the very same stone. The fact of the stone's existence does not change.

Of course that's a simple metaphor. This is what she meant by no right or wrong. If someone is perceiving, interpreting religion in a manner that is offensive... that is between him/her and Allah/God. If they are giving what is perceived as misinformation, that is also not only between him/her and Allah/God but also the responsibility of the receiver to discern. To be blunt, if a person wants to be spoon fed they will almost always be misled anyway.

We may walk the same religion, follow the same rules, but I can assure that we all experience all things in life uniquely. As the old saying goes... "no perception is invalid."

Beautifully stated...thank you.

GoldenHeart, I am hoping the best for you, but I am all out of ideas. Not that I am giving up on figuring out how to help you. Please keep us informed of any new news and who knows, maybe it will spark some insight.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

"no perception is invalid."

Beautifully stated?

If you really believe that divel, you cannot complain about ANYTHING that anyone says or does and contradict the beautiful statement.

[Together4ever 1]

"no perception is invalid."

Beautifully stated?

If you really believe that divel, you cannot complain about ANYTHING that anyone says or does and contradict the beautiful statement.

You do understand it then... Means don't proclaim to know the will of Allah. He is the one who has the right to judge. I have nothing more to say because in all honesty, szsz, you enjoy belittling too much and I want nothing to do with it. You didn't understand the meaning of what I said, you slapped some silly labels on it, even sent a weblink but utterly missed the point. I would like at this point to agree to disagree and I am bowing out of further conversation with you on any topic in the future. Thanks.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You do understand it then... Means don't proclaim to know the will of Allah. He is the one who has the right to judge. I have nothing more to say because in all honesty, szsz, you enjoy belittling too much and I want nothing to do with it. You didn't understand the meaning of what I said, you slapped some silly labels on it, even sent a weblink but utterly missed the point. I would like at this point to agree to disagree and I am bowing out of further conversation with you on any topic in the future. Thanks.

I picked out a quote from your post that make sin sense in reality. I don't enjoy belittling; I also don't enjoy reading nonsensical platitudes, and that drivel about all perspectives being valid is nothign but drivel.

My dad used to say that opinions are like anuses, everyone has one and some of them stink. That's all I'm saying about your quote.

Edited July 19, 2006 by szsz

[Together4ever 1]

You do understand it then... Means don't proclaim to know the will of Allah. He is the one who has the right to judge. I have nothing more to say because in all honesty, szsz, you enjoy belittling too much and I want nothing to do with it. You didn't understand the meaning of what I said, you slapped some silly labels on it, even sent a weblink but utterly missed the point. I would like at this point to agree to disagree and I am bowing out of further conversation with you on any topic in the future. Thanks.

I picked out a quote from your post that make sin sense in reality. I don't enjoy belittling; I also don't enjoy reading nonsensical platitudes, and that drivel about all perspectives being valid is nothign but drivel.

My dad used to say that opinions are like anuses, everyone has one and some of them stink. That's all I'm saying about your quote.

Only because you don't understand it. *sprays deoderant*

[morocco4ever 63]

You do understand it then... Means don't proclaim to know the will of Allah. He is the one who has the right to judge. I have nothing more to say because in all honesty, szsz, you enjoy belittling too much and I want nothing to do with it. You didn't understand the meaning of what I said, you slapped some silly labels on it, even sent a weblink but utterly missed the point. I would like at this point to agree to disagree and I am bowing out of further conversation with you on any topic in the future. Thanks.

I picked out a quote from your post that make sin sense in reality. I don't enjoy belittling; I also don't enjoy reading nonsensical platitudes, and that drivel about all perspectives being valid is nothign but drivel.

My dad used to say that opinions are like anuses, everyone has one and some of them stink. That's all I'm saying about your quote.

So who has the right to say which ones stink and which ones don't? IMO only Allah does.

Sorry that I don't agree 100% with you, but that is my right, and your right to disagree with me. As for calling someones statement drivel......in who's opinion? If I had a right then I might say yours stink since you believe all should think exactly as you do to be valid.

<should I get out my deoderant as well?>

Edited July 19, 2006 by Morocco4ever

[JElsafty 0]

MMMMM....Can we get back to my case?

No kidding. Why did the thread turn into all this?