The Saga Continues.....

[AngelK96 0]

I don't know about anyone else, but since I've been on this thread, I've met a lot of nice people who took the time to write and offer words of kindness and encouragement. Sometimes, the PMs came so fast, I couldn't post for the popups lol! I don't feel I can do you justice and I am truly humbled. You guys made my days! Each will receive a personal thank you, but this is for you all.

Much love!

Well i thought it was very interesting! Looking forward to another great debate and learning a thing or two.

[sarah and hicham 3]

I enjoyed it also keep up the good work!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

So, how about that weather today, huh?

LOL! It's been sorching hot here, just like the conversation.

Thanks for the laugh!

Good night, ladies. May God be with you!

Edited July 18, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I posted this to the Yahoo group but I immediately unsubscribed so I'm not sure if it went through....

It has become painfully clear that I am not welcomed on the ME/NA section of VJ and will not be coming there any more.

Since this board is a spin off of that forum I will also leave here as well.

I want to say to those of you who have family members in those parts of the ME who are involved in conflict at the moment: I pray Allah/God keeps everyone of you and your loved ones safe through this, ameen.

To everyone: I am sorry for giving into anger and letting a particular topic get out of control. I can not just sit back and watch the passing on of misinformation. My question to SZSZ and for everyone else to ponder is "how can you claim that a marriage must be registered with the government to be valid when there are ahadeeth that state that there were times when the Prophet would be unaware that one of his sahaba had gotten married?" I don't want an answer it's just something to think about. I won't be here to recieve the reply.

An advice to any muslimaat out there who are looking to learn about Islam from people on VJ, that is not the place for finding Islamic knowledge. If you prefer to look on the internet or don't have access to live scholars there are many websites established by notable scholars and their students that would be much better for seeking knowledge.

Also, NEVER take any knowledge from anyone who can't or won't produce the proof for what they are claiming. Shaytaan decieves muslims like anyone else. We are not safe from him just because we're muslim. He whispers into the hearts of men and he is not above coming in disguise as one who seeks to establish a justice greater than Allah. 'Autho billahi min ash shaytaani rajeem.

Many people from the beginning of time were sent messengers and prophets from Allah and they changed the religion to the point of it becoming unrecognizable. Please don't do that to this PERFECT deen that Allah has choosen for us.

Islam is just and fair and perfect, exactly as it is. Do you not think that Allah and His messenger knew how the world would change after our Prophet died? Yet, Allah still says in His Quran...

"This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Al-Qur'an, 005.003 (Al-Maeda)

There is no need to change it. It is perfect just as it is and anyone who claims otherwise is straying from the command of Allah and the teaching of His messenger.

Good luck to everyone here on your Visa Journey and take care!

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu ya akhawaati

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My question to SZSZ and for everyone else to ponder is "how can you claim that a marriage must be registered with the government to be valid when there are ahadeeth that state that there were times when the Prophet would be unaware that one of his sahaba had gotten married?" I don't want an answer it's just something to think about. I won't be here to recieve the reply.

I try to be polite, so I'll answer anyway. Layla, you are not one of the trusted Sahaba, and what was done to be recognized as having a valid marriage is not the same here as it was there. Why do you try to generalize what is inately specific? I know you won't answer, but I'll ask anyway.

I couldn't sit back either and let you advise women, our sisters, to accept less than what Allah offers to us as equal to what He offers us. I agree that people should check out information themselves. I advised that my information be checked out and was happy when you requested proof from me. As far as the yada yada about Shaytan and not giving proof, I'm sorry, you didn't do a good job of supporting your claims. Not my fault. Threatening Shaytan when not everyone agrees with you is a cheap trick, but in the larger picture, well advised.

I don't think you should go, but you don't care what I think anyway . . .

Take care!

[babybunny 2]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'll tell you what I know. Contracts are valid if they do not violate other established tenets of law. This applies to Islamic law as well as secular law. The articles that I posted before have examples of what didn't work. The same is true in Muslim countries that do have Islamic courts. There may be provisions other than the commonly accepted ones added into the contract that are rejected by the court. For example, I've heard people wrongly claim that to prevent a man from taking more than one wife, a codicil can be included to forbid it.

That may be allowed in some venues, but not in others, depending on how the sharia is interpreted, and the interpretation of sharia differs from place to place, even within a country. Recently, Morocco put the breaks on polgyny, requiring direct permission from the legal wife and adding hurdles that effectively outlawed it. One of my brothers-in-law learned this the hard way not long ago. Tunisia outlawed it altogether. The same would be true if a contract allowed polgyny in a country, like Tunisia, where it was not allowed. No court would sanction that (well, maybe if bribed).

I agree with you..

my contract sayes something on there where my husband would have = had to go to court or whatever

to have 3 other wives. he dont have nothing to worry with my split personality he will never be lonely.

the PMs shonnie, the freak shonnie, the lets go shopping shonnie, and the not tonight dear- shonnie.

he will keep his hands full for sure..

My question to SZSZ and for everyone else to ponder is "how can you claim that a marriage must be registered with the government to be valid when there are ahadeeth that state that there were times when the Prophet would be unaware that one of his sahaba had gotten married?" I don't want an answer it's just something to think about. I won't be here to recieve the reply.

I try to be polite, so I'll answer anyway. Layla, you are not one of the trusted Sahaba, and what was done to be recognized as having a valid marriage is not the same here as it was there. Why do you try to generalize what is inately specific? I know you won't answer, but I'll ask anyway.

I couldn't sit back either and let you advise women, our sisters, to accept less than what Allah offers to us as equal to what He offers us. I agree that people should check out information themselves. I advised that my information be checked out and was happy when you requested proof from me. As far as the yada yada about Shaytan and not giving proof, I'm sorry, you didn't do a good job of supporting your claims. Not my fault. Threatening Shaytan when not everyone agrees with you is a cheap trick, but in the larger picture, well advised.

I don't think you should go, but you don't care what I think anyway . . .

Take care!

in Pakistan ITS THE LAW! you get married you registar it..

our nikka paper has a bunch of cool looking seals and stamps on it...

we had to go to court too..

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I woke up this morning and immediately realized that perhaps one reason why my remarks and the remarks by others about having a nikah ceremony without legalities were regarded as shockig and insensitive is because I left out one important explanation, which I will offer now.

The Arabic word "nikah" means "sexual intercourse". The nikah contract, in fiqh law and in practice, is a contract that makes sexual contact between a man and a woman legal thru the completion of the basic ceremonial elements of the contract - offer, acceptance, and consideration. The consideration, the mahr, is required, without it there is no validity to the nikah. The mahr is given to the woman in exchange for exclusive enjoyment of her sexual parts by the man.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 81

Narrated 'Uqba: The Prophet said: "The stipulations (in the marriage contract) most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts."

"Nikah", in common colloquialism, is analygous to the "F" word. In many quarters of the Arabic speaking world, to have a nikah contract without the corresponding legalities that give it enforcement power renders it simply a contract to have sex without any truely binding obligation - in other words, it is for (f)un, not for committment. In many ways, the mahr is merely symbolic, but exchange of the mahr for sexual intercourse also entitles the wife to financial support. The authority of the state to bind the couple to its obligations as interpreted by the local madhab (school of jurisprudence), is how the woman is assured her rights to support and the man is assured of his right to sex.

The husbands who refused to have a nikah without the legalities in order to be intimate with their beloveds are sensitive to the social connotation of the nikah without legalities.

Of course, this is an oversimplication. There are levels and types of marriage, as I mentioned before, slavery marriage being one of them. In fact, much of marriage law between free Muslims is historically drawn from slavery law, which is why I stated that the nikah without protection was analygous to a marriage between a slave and her master. Scholars have disagreed on this now obscure area of law, but many considered a slave wife to be a lesser wife, not entitled to the same rights as a free wife. Some argued that once a slave became a wife, she was entitled to the same rights.

Anyway, Islam is about balance, and balance relies on equal weight for the rights AND the obligations in a social contract. A Nikah is a covenent with God and society because God is in everything we do, and because an orderly and just society is the means by which we do it. So, it can be said that the covenent is the `ibadat, or what we owe to God, and the mu`amalat is what we owe to society. Altough Allah acceeds His authority to no one and our rights are God-given, without one or the other, the covenent is out of balance between the assertion of rights and the enforcement obligations.

I hope this helps.

Edited July 18, 2006 by szsz

[AngelK96 0]

Layla I wish you didn't feel like you are unwelcome here. I hate to see anyone leave VJ. As for much self I don't know much about Islam to know what is right or what is wrong. I think all of us in our own way need to search for the truth and be at peace with what we choose in this life.

Angel

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

I posted this to the Yahoo group but I immediately unsubscribed so I'm not sure if it went through....

It has become painfully clear that I am not welcomed on the ME/NA section of VJ and will not be coming there any more.

Good luck to everyone here on your Visa Journey and take care!

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu ya akhawaati

Layla

i would rather see you stay but such is your choice. it's not every day i find a long lost relative.

gehen Sie mit Gott

(that's german)

[babybunny 2]

I woke up this morning and immediately realized that perhaps one reason why my remarks and the remarks by others about having a nikah ceremony without legalities were regarded as shockig and insensitive is because I left out one important explanation, which I will offer now.

The Arabic word "nikah" means "sexual intercourse". The nikah contract, in fiqh law and in practice, is a contract that makes sexual contact between a man and a woman legal thru the completion of the basic ceremonial elements of the contract - offer, acceptance, and consideration. The consideration, the mahr, is required, without it there is no validity to the nikah. The mahr is given to the woman in exchange for exclusive enjoyment of her sexual parts by the man.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 81

Narrated 'Uqba: The Prophet said: "The stipulations (in the marriage contract) most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts."

"Nikah", in common colloquialism, is analygous to the "F" word. In many quarters of the Arabic speaking world, to have a nikah contract without the corresponding legalities that give it enforcement power renders it simply a contract to have sex without any truely binding obligation - in other words, it is for (f)un, not for committment. In many ways, the mahr is merely symbolic, but exchange of the mahr for sexual intercourse also entitles the wife to financial support. The authority of the state to bind the couple to its obligations as interpreted by the local madhab (school of jurisprudence), is how the woman is assured her rights to support and the man is assured of his right to sex.

The husbands who refused to have a nikah without the legalities in order to be intimate with their beloveds are sensitive to the social connotation of the nikah without legalities.

Of course, this is an oversimplication. There are levels and types of marriage, as I mentioned before, slavery marriage being one of them. In fact, much of marriage law between free Muslims is historically drawn from slavery law, which is why I stated that the nikah without protection was analygous to a marriage between a slave and her master. Scholars have disagreed on this now obscure area of law, but many considered a slave wife to be a lesser wife, not entitled to the same rights as a free wife. Some argued that once a slave became a wife, she was entitled to the same rights.

Anyway, Islam is about balance, and balance relies on equal weight for the rights AND the obligations in a social contract. A Nikah is a covenent with God and society because God is in everything we do, and because an orderly and just society is the means by which we do it. So, it can be said that the covenent is the `ibadat, or what we owe to God, and the mu`amalat is what we owe to society. Altough Allah acceeds His authority to no one and our rights are God-given, without one or the other, the covenent is out of balance between the assertion of rights and the enforcement obligations.

I hope this helps.

ohh my " guess we all got the sexual intercourse paper " and not the " sex paper"

I am blushing here..let me continue reading..

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

ohh my " guess we all got the sexual intercourse paper " and not the " sex paper"

I am blushing here..let me continue reading..

well that must be a major relief for you

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You are too much, shonnie! Thanks for the laughs! Yep, that is alot of what's behind the ceremony and why it is covenent rather than a simple sacrement.

Thanks also for being so nice, sweetie! I appreciate that!

[kerewin21 2]

An advice to any muslimaat out there who are looking to learn about Islam from people on VJ, that is not the place for finding Islamic knowledge. If you prefer to look on the internet or don't have access to live scholars there are many websites established by notable scholars and their students that would be much better for seeking knowledge.

I think this is probably true. Many of us are not muslim, and I don't think anyone is claiming to be a muslim scholar. I think it's important to remember, however, that everyone interprets religion differently. I personally don't believe there is a right or a wrong way, I think everyone interacts with God in their own way and in a way that feels comfortable to them.

Good luck to everyone here on your Visa Journey and take care!

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu ya akhawaati

Layla

Layla, I think you have been and could continue to be a valuable member of this forum. I do hope you will reconsider, and if not you will be missed. Take care,

Sharon

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Who is teaching people that religion isn't about right and wrong? It's certainly not about if it feels good, do it.

Sorry, folks, if I agree with anything Layla said, it's that we can't just make up the rules as we go along. Islam is more than rules, it's about living a beautiful life with God at your back, but it's hard to do that if you don't believe it has limits that require a belief in right of wrong.

[9.71] The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil

He said it, not I.

[kerewin21 2]

I guess we just disagree on that. Which is not a problem for me.