The Saga Continues.....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Wow, this thread has turned since I last read it. I don't know much about Islam, and I would never want to debate anyone on any religion. But what I do know is that I had heard of this kind of marriage before I went to Morocco to marry my husband. I had actually suggested it to him since I didn't understand, and he was thoroughly offended. He said he would NEVER marry me with that type of marriage. He told me that this type of marriage was only asking Allah to have permission to have sex with a friend.

Hicham said the same thing as you about this kind of marriage just so people can have sex... I also know nothing about Islam but I know what Hicham told me and he is Muslim.

And so am I, with no gaps in the lifespan, no "catching up" to do.

Sarah, Morocco4ever, you two have honorable men. God has blessed you! You were blessed with men who would not do to you what some of the women here have apparently have done to them - the dishonoring of them in their ignorance. I had a man suggest this kind of farce to me, as well, thinking that since I was in the west, I was easy and did not know my God-given rights as a woman. He was gone fast!

I saw where someone said that I was issuing a fatwa. Well, it seems that there are others issuing fatwas to fulfil their desires. It is HARD to resist sex with a man you plan to marry, but that is what we are to do. I do see this as an excuse to have sex. I am insulted such fornication is called "Islamic", just as much as I am insulted when terrorism is called Islamic. Neither have anything to do with Islam.

I have never seen women who resist so defiantly an attempt to educate them as to their rights under God, and to prevent their devaluation as wives. Why did you come to Islam if you simply wanted to continue behaving like children who tell God what to do, not take from Him what He wants from you? You don't even know enough or think enough of yourselves to know when you are being dishonored. God said that not all will be guided. He was right.

Has anyone even begun to check out what I have said, or are you afraid of what you will find?

Edited July 17, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Since I have been on this topic, I have received 18 emails and PMs cheering me on. This is not to brag, but to say that I wonder why it is that so many people are afraid to say in public what they believe and who they support. While I appreciate it, I would prefer that people felt free to express their divergent positions without coming up on what some have refered to as a "bandwagon mentality" on the ME/NA board.

I haven't been here long enough to know what this really means, but I have heard it enough to know it's real to some, at least. If I have been so cheeky to break the bandwagon mentality in my ignorance of it, I am glad to do so!

Islam is sweet, Islam is merciful, Islam is about protection and drawing us nearer to God. Islam has been the love of my life since I was coherent enought to be aware of its power. It saddens me to see it defiled and for Muslims to appear to be amoral, spoiled, wallowing in desire and so easily agreeable to tossing their rights and obligations aside.

I also want to apologize from the bottom of my heart to all the non-Muslims here for how the terms "kafir" and "kuffar" have been tossed around and used loosely out of ignorance and disdain. Those of us in the deen who have been raised well are not taught to address non-Muslims in this manner. We are to approach others among God's creatures with beauty and dignity. You have done nothing to have received such disparagment, and there was no reason for it, especially when the accuser is behaving in a way which she would characterize "kuffar" as doing.

[deeshla 0]

It is getting ridiculous, but I must thank SZSZ -- I am learning A LOT and I respect her knowledge. Converts that I meet in Morocco (generally American women) seem to think they can do they Islamic marriage too -- outside of the court -- one (dubious) friend of mine calls this "the sex paper" --

Amanda

dayum what the hell?

now many agree with this #######?

there are some mean ladies on this thread - dayum...

Please PLEASE do not take offense to this. It is not in reference to any of you here on VJ but to desperate couples here (as in here in Morocco). Dating is not really allowed here in Morocco - those who do it, do it on the sly under the radar of watchful parents (that is, if you are a young woman, young men are expected to sleep around) -- so marriage is a way out of that and into a legalized arrangement. That is why when I encounter a man who seems attracted to me his first question is not "Want to go get a coffee?" but "Want to marry me?" Marriage really is more equated with sex rather than partnership. This is not the truth everwhere, but the general truth as I see it (and please remember I have lived 2 years in the Moroccan bled -- the countryside as opposed to a big city so I am afraid my knowledge comes from the more traditional culture of the "bled" -- urban Moroccans would be in a different boat, sometimes).

Recently a Moroccan newspaper did a survey -- it was bizarre -- asking how many Moroccan citizens were in favor of marriage. I think the result was something like 99.9% . And of course! Marriage is not such an option like it is the states -- and I am sorry to focus on sex, but in a place where sex is officially forbidden (but widespead -- Moroccan prostitutes are soooo common) marriage is seen as connected with sex, whereas in the American cultural upbringing, marriage tends to focus on partnership.

Again, take no offense, I was reporting what a friend said and if you lived here, you might understand why.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The irony is, the longing for sex on the part of the Arabs (most of these countries have the same perspective on sex, and the same double standard) is complemented by the western woman's perceived "easiness" and openess to having sex, even within the most percarious circumstances. They are not doing this "Islamic marriage" farce with women they see as honorable. And no one should be offended by the truth. I am a fly on the wall, Arab, Muslim, with Arab Muslim male relatives. If you want to know how this is truly preceived by the families, you would, like deeshla, be there.

I was also honored by my husband who had the patience and committment to wait, without complaining, until the official process was done before bedding with me. Then, he was proud to show me off as his wife, his family's honor was intact. Honor is big in Arab cultures. That is how a Muslim man is to treat you. As your qawwaam, you should demand no less than a man who will put you first and his loins last.

Edited July 18, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

Noura, I know I said I wouldn't respond anymore BUT I just wanted to respond about three matters...

Marriage of muslim women to non-believers...

"005.005 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)."

Al-Qur'an, 005.005 (Al-Maeda)

Women do not marry other women. It is the muslim man being addressed here and it is specific that they (men) are allowed to marry chaste women (not just anyone who calls themselves christian or jewish). No one is allowed to marry a non believer except in this case.

Are alhul kitab kufar?....

"004.150 Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

004.151 They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."

Al-Qur'an, 004.150-151 (An-Nisa)

Who is Allah talking about that believe in some of the messengers but reject others? Note: the word in Arabic used here is alkarifoon. If they reject Muhammad as the final messenger they are kufar. It is not a bad word and it's the word Allah used so it's wrong to say it's unfair to call them that. It simply means non-believer. Most of them would openly agree that they are non-believers of Islam.

Hijab....

"024.031 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."

Al-Qur'an, 024.031 (An-Noor [The Light])

It is the khimmar that is referred to here (translated as veil) and shaykhal Albanee describes this article of clothing that is worn over the head and as SZSZ mentioned before, the jewish and christian women were already wearing this but they wore it so that their bosoms were exposed so we were ordered to not only wear it but to draw it around our bosoms.

"Abu Dawood; Book 027, Hadith Number 4092.

------------------------------

Chapter : How much beauty can a woman display.

Narated By 'Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin : Asma, daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands."

And this is the proof from the Sunnah that the only thing of a woman that should show is her face and her hands.

OK I didn't respond to fight BUT I have whined a lot on here about producing the proof so I didn't want to be hypocritical.

Layla

[sarah and hicham 3]

Since I have been on this topic, I have received 18 emails and PMs cheering me on. This is not to brag, but to say that I wonder why it is that so many people are afraid to say in public what they believe and who they support. While I appreciate it, I would prefer that people felt free to express their divergent positions without coming up on what some have refered to as a "bandwagon mentality" on the ME/NA board.

I haven't been here long enough to know what this really means, but I have heard it enough to know it's real to some, at least. If I have been so cheeky to break the bandwagon mentality in my ignorance of it, I am glad to do so!

Islam is sweet, Islam is merciful, Islam is about protection and drawing us nearer to God. Islam has been the love of my life since I was coherent enought to be aware of its power. It saddens me to see it defiled and for Muslims to appear to be amoral, spoiled, wallowing in desire and so easily agreeable to tossing their rights and obligations aside.

I also want to apologize from the bottom of my heart to all the non-Muslims here for how the terms "kafir" and "kuffar" have been tossed around and used loosely out of ignorance and disdain. Those of us in the deen who have been raised well are not taught to address non-Muslims in this manner. We are to approach others among God's creatures with beauty and dignity. You have done nothing to have received such disparagment, and there was no reason for it, especially when the accuser is behaving in a way which she would characterize "kuffar" as doing.

I am one of those people cheering you on. I am not getting involved in this thread really because I am not Muslim and I know close to nothing about Islam. I admire you for continuing to share and spread your knowledge and beliefs. I think a lot of the Muslim women here are converts, or are new to Islam so I think it's nice to have someone as passionate and knowledgable as yourself in this forum. I am learning a lot! I'm not saying I like to see people argue about it, but it's good to see someone here and it's nice to not have this topic dominated by certain aspects... no offense to anyone.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You can't answer my questions, Layla, but you can do whatever it takes to divert from your own failings.

Women do not marry other women. It is the muslim man being addressed here and it is specific that they (men) are allowed to marry chaste women (not just anyone who calls themselves christian or jewish). No one is allowed to marry a non believer except in this case.

Please explain how a permission for men becomes a prohibition for women, and follow it up with how this constitutes an abrogation (most reputable scholars dismiss abrogation) when no ayat forbids marriage between a Muslim and an ahl al kitab.

According to you, ALL non-Muslims are kuffar, so NO Muslim man should be marrying anything but a Muslima:

[60.10] O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the kuffar, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of kuffar women, and ask for what you have spent, and ask them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

60:10 forbids ALL Muslims from marriage with kuffar. Do you make that distinction? I know, you won't answer, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

It is the khimmar that is referred to here (translated as veil) and shaykhal Albanee describes this article of clothing that is worn over the head and as SZSZ mentioned before, the jewish and christian women were already wearing this but they wore it so that their bosoms were exposed so we were ordered to not only wear it but to draw it around our bosoms.

During the time of the Prophet, a khimar was not a veil, but a shapeless piece of cloth worn by both men and women. It was hundreds of years later during the formation of fiqh that the definition of "headcovering" was adopted as the meaning of khimar. Anyway, the ayat does not require headcovering or hair concealing, but it does, as you say, require breast covering.

Narated By 'Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin : Asma, daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands."

And this is the proof from the Sunnah that the only thing of a woman that should show is her face and her hands.

Well, you may not know it, but that hadith, altho very popular, is classified as weak, with a broken isnad (chain of transmission). It is binding on no one. And, it has no corroboration from the Quran.

Nice try tho. Keep it up, you may learn something. You are not addressing an amateur.

Edited July 18, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

Has anyone even begun to check out what I have said, or are you afraid of what you will find?

I have and have become more convinced you are incorrect.

You are free to believe what you want.

I have apologized for the things I said against you in public but you continue to slander me here and imply that I, and other converts from the west, are a bunch of sex driven whores looking for an easy way to fulfill our desires. Yet you have still not presented any proof for your accusations.

I will not be visiting this thread anymore and I'm going to have to put you on iggy because I don't need the fitnah you're causing here.

This entire process is stressful enough without arrogant and prideful folks trying to make it worse.

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have and have become more convinced you are incorrect.

I suppose you don't care to share with us what you have learned that shows me to be incorrect. Well, I understand, you have failed in your last attempt, why try again?

Look, I continue to be disappointed in your lack of response to my questions and the direct issue at hand. Other than to defend yourself, you have done little to prove that a nikah without enforcement honors God. You go on about how it honors YOU, but nothing about how it honors our creator or fulfills His intent.

I expected better and I am done apologizing since my apologizes have yeilded so little in the way of learning for the readers or justification for what you promote.

Yea, I'm a little irked, but I'll get over it.

Take care!

I am one of those people cheering you on. I am not getting involved in this thread really because I am not Muslim and I know close to nothing about Islam. I admire you for continuing to share and spread your knowledge and beliefs. I think a lot of the Muslim women here are converts, or are new to Islam so I think it's nice to have someone as passionate and knowledgable as yourself in this forum. I am learning a lot! I'm not saying I like to see people argue about it, but it's good to see someone here and it's nice to not have this topic dominated by certain aspects... no offense to anyone.

Thank you, Sarah. It seems you haev a wise partner. Insha'allah, you will learn well and fast.

I had no idea when I came here to learn about immigration that I would be engaging in any discussions such as this one. I'm not really sure what to think about it all, but I'll take it as it comes.

Thanks to all the others who have offered their support, as well.

Edited July 18, 2006 by szsz

[Bosco 1]

SZSZ,

As you know, since we have exchanged emails, I feel registration is an essential part of preserving the integrity of an Islamic marriage. It is also what my husband believes, and he would not have accepted Islamic marriage alone.

However, for me personally, it is a leap to start calling out marriages that are only Islamic as haram, or done only to suit sexual desires, especially in the context of "western women who desperately want to lay with Muslim men they love". I think that assumes things about both parties that may or may not be true. Part of it may simple be their understanding of Islam or how they were raised. Not everyone feels the same about this, so even if there is a right and a wrong, if they feel Islamic alone is enough, it isn't necessarily because they have bad intentions. There are still places in rural Morocco where they perform only Islamic marriage (the government is trying to stop this). I have also seen couples that started with the Islamic, performed in the home country of the man, for the sake of his family who wants to be some part of it, and followed with the civil here. Some of these men have turned out to be incredible loving, caring, protective husbands. I have also seen guys who went through all the motions turn out to be dogs.

I don't believe that any man that tells his wife that Islamic marriage alone is not right is automatically honorable. Some of these men say this and will choose a civil marriage or Christian marriage. Some are saying it just to make the woman believe he is more sincere, different from the other guys, when really it is still all about the green card. Some of these guys criticize other guys for doing so but are having extramarital sex themselves, without any marriage. Not that I expect anyone to own up to that here but plenty do so.

Arab men also whisper many things about Arab women to the Western women. I find their degrading comments about women, whether Arab or Western, distasteful. I think it reflects the general lack of regard some of these men have for women in general.

So, to sum it up -- I agree with you. I feel marriages need to be registered - but I don't feel I can ever know another person's intentions, what they believe to be true, or what is in their heart when they make such decisions. I don't like calling people out on their actions as haram and halal (especially in a public forum) because I make a dozen or more mistakes myself a day. I think discussion is great in opening people's eyes and minds but prefer to avoid condemnation as I don't feel I am the one to judge.

With that said, I hope you will keep posting, sharing your knowledge and insight. BTW, I ordered the books you suggested.

Rebecca

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Well, my low down scoundral of a dishonoring husband who used me sex asks for a reliable religious opinion that states that a marriage isn't valid even though these 4 conditions are fulfilled -

1- أيجاب وقبول

offer and acceptance

2- شاهدي عدل

two righteous witnesses

3- ولي للزوجة

wali

4- الأشعار أو الأعلان

publication

At least from what we know, and from the scholar who agreed to marry us in Egypt, all 4 madhabs agree that these are the necessities of a proper marriage, except for Abu Hanifa, who stated that the witnesses did not need to be righteous.

In no way was my husband dishonorable in his actions when he announced to all of his friends and family that I was his wife, or when he chose his two oldest friends to be the witnesses for our nikkah. And, to have it repeated, over and over here that he was just using me for sex (and that is what is implied with this discouse) makes this a very uncomfortable place for me to be posting in. Weee, I'm a fornicator and my husband is scum

Quite frankly, this kind of discourse is the reason I don't post on beliefnet anymore. The absolute disrespect for one another in the discussion is palpable. Can't we state our opinions without being all high and mighty and condecending? Bleck.

Also, converts are often zealous about their faith. If you think that they're being a wee bit too zealous, then don't mock them, but seek to open a dialogue without getting nasty.

And with that, I shall retire for the evening, where my dishonorable husband and I the fornicatress shall conduct our nightly time of studying islam together. Cuz ya know, he's using me for sex.

Edited July 18, 2006 by rahma

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't know another person's intentions either, unless they tell me what they are. I have gathered from the comments that have been freely given, that there are women who are willing to sacrifice their God-given rights for a quickie, illegitimate marriage. I only know this because they said so, not because I'm making assumptions.

And I restate, I have never seen women so adverse to being told how they should expect to be honored. Here is where I do make the assumption that is it the influence of hedonistic western culture that disables their ability to discern when a man is respecting them and when he is not.

I have three daughters, 18-25, and two sons. It is an ongoing process that my family and I have engaged to teach them, every day, what they should expect in a mate, how they should demand to be treated and how they should step up to the plate to give honor and respect as well as receive it. That seems to be something not terribly popular in this society.

Thank you! Insha'allah, you will enjoy those books!

Well, my low down scoundral of a dishonoring husband who used me sex asks for a reliable religious opinion that states that a marriage isn't valid even though these 4 conditions are fulfilled -

1- أيجاب وقبول

offer and acceptance

2- شاهدي عدل

two righteous witnesses

3- ولي للزوجة

wali

4- الأشعار أو الأعلان

publication

At least from what we know, and from the scholar who agreed to marry us in Egypt, all 4 madhabs agree that these are the necessities of a proper marriage, except for Abu Hanifa, who stated that the witnesses did not need to be righteous.

If this is what is required for a legal marriage in Egypt, why are you mocking yourself, rahma? Again, however, I am not refering only to the ceremonial aspects of the nikah, but its acquiesence to an authority that has the power to uphold it, thus, giving it teeth.

I've never posted on Beliefnet, but I have found that disrespect exists here too, and did before I came, tales be told.

Edited July 18, 2006 by szsz

[sarah and hicham 3]

Well, my low down scoundral of a dishonoring husband who used me sex asks for a reliable religious opinion that states that a marriage isn't valid even though these 4 conditions are fulfilled -

1- أيجاب وقبول

offer and acceptance

2- شاهدي عدل

two righteous witnesses

3- ولي للزوجة

wali

4- الأشعار أو الأعلان

publication

At least from what we know, and from the scholar who agreed to marry us in Egypt, all 4 madhabs agree that these are the necessities of a proper marriage, except for Abu Hanifa, who stated that the witnesses did not need to be righteous.

In no way was my husband dishonorable in his actions when he announced to all of his friends and family that I was his wife, or when he chose his two oldest friends to be the witnesses for our nikkah. And, to have it repeated, over and over here that he was just using me for sex (and that is what is implied with this discouse) makes this a very uncomfortable place for me to be posting in. Weee, I'm a fornicator and my husband is scum

Quite frankly, this kind of discourse is the reason I don't post on beliefnet anymore. The absolute disrespect for one another in the discussion is palpable. Can't we state our opinions without being all high and mighty and condecending? Bleck.

Also, converts are often zealous about their faith. If you think that they're being a wee bit too zealous, then don't mock them, but seek to open a dialogue without getting nasty.

And with that, I shall retire for the evening, where my dishonorable husband and I the fornicatress shall conduct our nightly time of studying islam together. Cuz ya know, he's using me for sex.

Rahma,

Don't take it personally! No one said anything about you. I think these comment were made because this HAS happened in the past and it happens often. SZSZ never pointed fingers she just said it has happened, and it does happen.

I think it's hard for smeone who has a lot of knowledge about something to not sound condescending, but I think SZSZ has done a good job in expalining herself, answering questions, and teaching everyone here!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't want to sound condescending, but it's not like I'm a scholar with adoring pupils sitting at her feet eager to suck up whatever she has to say. I have to work a little harder, its a tough crowd!

[Bosco 1]

And I restate, I have never seen women so adverse to being told how they should expect to be honored. Here is where I do make the assumption that is it the influence of hedonistic western culture that disables their ability to discern when a man is respecting them and when he is not.

I agree, I think this is definitely a result of a clash of cultural values that tie into religion.

I know women who find the entire concept of mahr offensive because Western thought makes them feel "bought", as well as women who find the concept of a man as breadwinner degrading. There is a difference between choosing to be an equal partner financially as a result of means, choice desire, or rejecting it because you feel "kept" due to stereotypes. I think rejecting the ways they should be honored ties into the Western stereotypes of oppressed Muslim women and is a way of setting themselves apart from the stereotypes but it often is to their own disadvantage.

Rebecca