The Saga Continues.....

[babybunny 2]

It is getting ridiculous, but I must thank SZSZ -- I am learning A LOT and I respect her knowledge. Converts that I meet in Morocco (generally American women) seem to think they can do they Islamic marriage too -- outside of the court -- one (dubious) friend of mine calls this "the sex paper" --

Amanda

dayum what the hell?

now many agree with this #######?

there are some mean ladies on this thread - dayum...

[jordanianprincess 0]

Hello All,

I have been reading this thread and found it most interesting except the insults ofcourse. If I may add my 2 cents...

Doesn't matter to me if you are talking about Islam or Christianity, but if you look at it historically, when was anyone required to register their marriage to make it valid. A marriage is a union in front of God/Allah. Registering it with the country/state you are in doesnt make it any more valid in my opinion. When my fiance comes here on his K-1 we will get married in City Hall, but we won't live together until we get married in the church. Also since every country has different regulations on how to make a marriage valid, then you should refer back to whatever religous book you follow for guidance and interpret it as you see it. Everyone interprets things differently and it then becomes something between you and God.

I also think that saying anyone had a marriage just so they could have sex is very offensive even if its true. I think there are some boundries that need to be kept in mind here.

I do agree with some one the points each party has made, but one thing to keep in mind is that your own personal choices are just what they are. Even if someone gives advice on what another should do, doesn't mean they should follow it. I hope I didnt upset anyone, that was not my intention.

[Bosco 1]

I wanted to edit but it was too late...

My personal feeling again goes back to intentions, which is what I see as recurring theme throughout the Sunnah and Qur'an and is what I feel it all boils down to.

A person can jump through all the hoops, have the Islamic marriage, give a dowry, register the marriage, but if what is in the man's heart is to leave as soon as the green card comes, I don't don't consider what he has done as "halal" just because he followed the steps.

Likewise, registering or not registering. I personally feel it comes down to the intentions of the people involved in deeming it halal or not. If the man feels by not registering he can shrug off responsibilities, this is obviously not a good thing. If the couple believes that the Islamic alone is what they need and plan on honoring their marraige, I personally wouldn't consider that haram.

Shon... as far as the "sex paper"....I want to be clear. I am not saying anyone who does Islamic alone is doing it so they can have halal sex. The Islamic alone, in most countries, isn't going to cover the legal aspects of the marriage and thus is allowing the couple to be together alone but doesn't help in terms of legal issues that may stem from marriage.

I would recommend people register their marriages whether they feel it is required or nor if only for the reason it gives you recourse and protection. I have unfortunately seen a few women hurt, without the means to do anything about it.

Rebecca

[Veiled Princess 1]

Layla,

Is there a particular reason why you view marriage registration as bidah versus fitna? I am not trying to fuel the fire but I am curious about this.

I personally see it as fitna. I feel the registration is meant to preserve the contract (and the things that result thereof) and thus is something that should be addressed in Islamic law (especially when there are and have been problems with Islamic marriage alone). I know our imam would not consider an Islamic marriage alone. He is able to perform both civil and Islamic, and gave us the choice of bringing him a signed civil certificate or having him perform both concurrently.

I want to reiterate that I am not questioning anyone's marriage, just interested in the view of this as bidah versus Islamic jurisprudence.

Rebecca

I don't understand your question. Fitnah is like a trial or temptation.

I'm not saying it is bidah to register it... I am saying it is bidah to say it's ONLY halal IF you register it since there is nothing from the Quran or Sunnah stating such. I have stated numerous times that I have NO problem following the laws in this country!!!!

Layla

Edited July 17, 2006 by Veiled Princess

[Bosco 1]

I don't understand your question. Fitnah is like a trial or temptation.

I'm not saying it is bidah to register it... I am saying it is bidah to say it's ONLY halal IF you register it since there is nothing from the Quran or Sunnah stating such. I have stated numerous times that I have NO problem following the laws in this country!!!!

Layla

I meant fiqh (worked to 4am up at 5am to drive hubby to work, back to sleep at 7am and up at 10am -- and it is taking its toll. Soon I will be drooling like JW ). But regardless you answered my question so thanks for understanding the question despite the error.

Rebecca

Edited July 17, 2006 by Bosco

[Veiled Princess 1]

I meant fiqh (worked to 4am up at 5am to drive hubby to work, back to sleep at 7am and up at 10am -- and it is taking its toll. Soon I will be drooling like JW ). But regardless you answered my question.

That's what I thought you meant but I wasn't sure if you were asking if I thought it causes fitnah to have it or not so I thought I'd ask. GET SOME SLEEP

Layla

[Bosco 1]

That's what I thought you meant but I wasn't sure if you were asking if I thought it causes fitnah to have it or not so I thought I'd ask. GET SOME SLEEP

Layla

If work ever slows down, I will sleep. Meanwhile, I am making great money and have no time to spend it, which is a good thing for me. It is amazing how it actually grows if you don't touch it (only took 35 years to learn this ). I also had not given much thought to how much a second income would make a difference. Now if anyone was wondering why I always seem to be online, it is because I am hardworker and not because I addicted to the internet

Back to work before I hijack the hijacked thread.

Rebecca

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's interesting to say that they don't know who anyone is here, so they will only believe a scholar they can trust. That's what Goldenheart, did, no? And look what happened to her.

Some people never learn. Their pride is greater than their morality.

Frankly, it is an uneven debate, me debating converts. I may not be a scholar, but I have lived long enough as a Muslima to know the pitfalls of what has been expoused here as Islam. It makes me ashamed of what the insta-scholar revolution has done to the deen. I can quote scholars saying some demonstratively assinine things. And to think that I could go up against western women who desperately want to lay with Muslim men they love, even if it means that they deny themselves the protection Islam affords them was folly, I suppose. In the west, sex = love, so if you don't sleep with him asap, it must not be love.

You may not know me, but you can easily verify what I have said, if you really want to know the truth. What Layla has been promoting is found in fiqh as a form of marriage between a master and a slave woman. Check it out. Believe as you wish, but if a slavery form of marriage is ok with you, lacking the elements that support your union in real life while you bask in the glow of your pseudo-Christian sacremental marriage, don't be surprised if the honor you think you have is less than others whisper behind your back about. I speak Arabic, I know what they say about the fast western women who don't believe in legal marriage. I have done what I needed to do to warn you and to be in compliance with my debt to God to speak the truth.

Ameen

Edited July 17, 2006 by szsz

[Together4ever 1]

szsz... you wrote: "And to think that I could go up against western women who desperately want to lay with Muslim men they love, even if it means that they deny themselves the protection Islam affords them was folly, I suppose. In the west, sex = love, so if you don't sleep with him asap, it must not be love."

I'm just sitting here backspacing... I think it's best I don't say. My god.

[AngelK96 0]

I am usually a little opposed to thread hijacking....but you know what? I am glad you two are bringing it here instead of a new thread named "islamic debate". Can you imagine the intrusive OT posts if you opened a new thread??? and as a practical matter, I think we are collectively pretty much out of ideas for GH for the moment (wish it wasn't true, but until anything changes or progresses out on its own, we are pretty much stopped)I applaud you girls for finding the perfect "hiding" spot to discuss this, and I see that I am not the only one interested in how different views of the same material can be.

Have a good day everybody

Dawn

Ditto to what Dawn said. Glad to see others participating and getting some different views on this subject.

[sarah and hicham 3]

I think it's very interesting as well as to how differently things from the same book are interpreted so differently by different people. I guess that's why there are so many different sects in most religions.

Also, I don't think I have ever used the word different that many times in one sentence.

[morocco4ever 63]

Wow, this thread has turned since I last read it. I don't know much about Islam, and I would never want to debate anyone on any religion. But what I do know is that I had heard of this kind of marriage before I went to Morocco to marry my husband. I had actually suggested it to him since I didn't understand, and he was thoroughly offended. He said he would NEVER marry me with that type of marriage. He told me that this type of marriage was only asking Allah to have permission to have sex with a friend.

I really hope I don't offend anyone, because I am from a western culture, and I have always believed to live and let live. So if someone else views it differently then so be it. I just want everyone to be happy with their lives and with their choices, no judgements on my part. I do know that I am happy that my husband refused to marry me in this fashion since he does take such disregard to it.

As for the OP, I pray that you find an answer soon.

[babybunny 2]

slowly this thread is turning into garbage! uffff

[sarah and hicham 3]

Wow, this thread has turned since I last read it. I don't know much about Islam, and I would never want to debate anyone on any religion. But what I do know is that I had heard of this kind of marriage before I went to Morocco to marry my husband. I had actually suggested it to him since I didn't understand, and he was thoroughly offended. He said he would NEVER marry me with that type of marriage. He told me that this type of marriage was only asking Allah to have permission to have sex with a friend.

I really hope I don't offend anyone, because I am from a western culture, and I have always believed to live and let live. So if someone else views it differently then so be it. I just want everyone to be happy with their lives and with their choices, no judgements on my part. I do know that I am happy that my husband refused to marry me in this fashion since he does take such disregard to it.

As for the OP, I pray that you find an answer soon.

Hicham said the same thing as you about this kind of marriage just so people can have sex... I also know nothing about Islam but I know what Hicham told me and he is Muslim.

Ditto on the rest of your post.

[Bosco 1]

This is probably irrelevant to the discussion of whether marriage without registration is halal or haram, and I realize I am speaking for other people since my husband and I had both a civil and Islamic marriage at the same time, BUT I think for many of the women here, it wasn't a *preference* to do Islamic marriage alone but a result of the circumstances. Registering a marriage can take a lot of time when one of the parties is a USC, time some people do not have until they are reunited. In other cases, the couple met in a third country where the process would be very complicated for two non-citizens. I think everyone has registered their marriage or had a civil marriage once their spouse arrived (you would have to in order to apply for AOS).

Rebecca

Edited July 17, 2006 by Bosco