Ted Kennedy's Immigration Legacy -- and why did he do it?

[HAL 9000 96]

NumbersUSA claims that the US is overpopulated. Funny claim seeing that out of 238 countries, the US ranks 177 in population density at 80 people per square mile. In comparison, Spain (110) has 220/sqm, France (94) has 280/sqm, Poland (86) has 320/sqm, Switzerland (65) has 460/sqm, Germany (54) has 600/sqm, Belgium (32) has 880/sqm and The Netherlands (27) come in at 1020/sqm.

Now, if we compare the US to Canada (227) with 7.8/sqm, then yes, we're overpopulated. Otherwise, that particular claim is hard to defend.

Has NumbersUSA figured out yet how - without immigration - we would support an ever growing population - both in real and relative terms - of retired people?

One must think a little broader than how many people can we stand up in a square mile when consideringh "over crowded"

Things like infrastructure, natural resources, medical facilities and the budget to operate with sizable free services.

Things like Available schools and available jobs.

This and more determines over crowding.

This is the first time I've ever heard of 'free services.' Not sure what country you live in... but here people pay taxes that fund those services.

[Heracles 417]

Well, let's take the extreme. Having been to the Netherlands where the population density is 13 times what it is here ( 1020/sqm vs. 80/sqm), I can tell you that people there aren't exactly "squeezed" or "shelved". In terms of natural resources, they probably fare quite a bit worse than we do. They probably have fewer roads per capita as well. Better services, though, in the medical, public transport, public services and education arenas. And they're doing surprisingly well. According to NumbersUSA , that would be impossible.

All of the countries with an extremely high standard of living, have under 20 million in population.

Yes, and they are very, very tiny. They all have a higher population concentration than the US. Population density says nothing about the standard of living in any given country. Nothing.

So you don't think it's a coincidence that excluding the US, most countries with such large populations are dirt poor.

The negatives of illegal aliens far outweigh the positives. The only positive of illegal immigration is that the poor of another nation have access to a wealthier market. Which in itself has as negative as mentioned above. If 15,000,000 America cannot find work with another 50,000,000 living in poverty, how does their standard of living improve with an open border? when opening borders could bring another 20 to 30 to 200 million unskilled labor. It's just not possible. Furthermore, in terms of legal immigration, other OECD nations have a delicate balance of skilled labor along with highly skilled professionals. During the current recession, they have lowed the quota to protect their local jobs.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Booyah!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Well, let's take the extreme. Having been to the Netherlands where the population density is 13 times what it is here ( 1020/sqm vs. 80/sqm), I can tell you that people there aren't exactly "squeezed" or "shelved". In terms of natural resources, they probably fare quite a bit worse than we do. They probably have fewer roads per capita as well. Better services, though, in the medical, public transport, public services and education arenas. And they're doing surprisingly well. According to NumbersUSA , that would be impossible.

All of the countries with an extremely high standard of living, have under 20 million in population.

Yes, and they are very, very tiny. They all have a higher population concentration than the US. Population density says nothing about the standard of living in any given country. Nothing.

So you don't think it's a coincidence that excluding the US, most countries with such large populations are dirt poor.

The negatives of illegal aliens far outweigh the positives. The only positive of illegal immigration is that the poor of another nation have access to a wealthier market. Which in itself has as negative as mentioned above. If 15,000,000 America cannot find work with another 50,000,000 living in poverty, how does their standard of living improve with an open border? when opening borders could bring another 20 to 30 to 200 million unskilled labor. It's just not possible. Furthermore, in terms of legal immigration, other OECD nations have a delicate balance of skilled labor along with highly skilled professionals. During the current recession, they have lowed the quota to protect their local jobs.

Well, size of the population has little to do with wealth. Germany and France fare far better than Portugal or Greece and they're considerably larger in terms of population. The European Union as a whole fares well in economic terms and it's huge population wise. There are very small and poor countries and there are large and wealthy countries. Not sure what correlation you see there.

As for the benefits vs. the cost of illegal immigrants: you're not getting any argument from me. I've never been a fan of illegal immigration.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Mr. Big Dog

[Danno 1,228]

NumbersUSA claims that the US is overpopulated. Funny claim seeing that out of 238 countries, the US ranks 177 in population density at 80 people per square mile. In comparison, Spain (110) has 220/sqm, France (94) has 280/sqm, Poland (86) has 320/sqm, Switzerland (65) has 460/sqm, Germany (54) has 600/sqm, Belgium (32) has 880/sqm and The Netherlands (27) come in at 1020/sqm.

Now, if we compare the US to Canada (227) with 7.8/sqm, then yes, we're overpopulated. Otherwise, that particular claim is hard to defend.

Has NumbersUSA figured out yet how - without immigration - we would support an ever growing population - both in real and relative terms - of retired people?

One must think a little broader than how many people can we stand up in a square mile when consideringh "over crowded"

Things like infrastructure, natural resources, medical facilities and the budget to operate with sizable free services.

Things like Available schools and available jobs.

This and more determines over crowding.

This is the first time I've ever heard of 'free services.' Not sure what country you live in... but here people pay taxes that fund those services.

Earth to Hal, Earth to Hal,

There are a butt load of people who get services and have never paid any taxes what so ever.. save sales tax.

In fact, nearly half the people don't pay any Fed income tax as it is.

[Heracles 417]

As for the benefits vs. the cost of illegal immigrants: you're not getting any argument from me. I've never been a fan of illegal immigration.

The one thing I do think the US has to do is open up their visas to skilled immigrants. Currently you have to have a degree to get a visa. Furthermore, get rid of the stupid restriction which says you have to have a job lined up before you can apply for a visa. America would not have such a problem with illegal immigration if people were allowed to come here legally. So setup that up but ensure mandated use of e-verify, as well as another ID, such as: drivers license, passport or birth certificate.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

As for the benefits vs. the cost of illegal immigrants: you're not getting any argument from me. I've never been a fan of illegal immigration.

The one thing I do think the US has to do is open up their visas to skilled immigrants. Currently you have to have a degree to get a visa. Furthermore, get rid of the stupid restriction which says you have to have a job lined up before you can apply for a visa. America would not have such a problem with illegal immigration if people were allowed to come here legally. So setup that up but ensure mandated use of e-verify, as well as another ID, such as: drivers license, passport or birth certificate.

But we border an extremely poor country and it's pretty easy to get across. Australia is an island. You have to come by boat or plane, much harder and it is not near a poor country with a large population. Illegal immigration is a minor issue there.

[Heracles 417]

Earth to Hal, Earth to Hal,

There are a butt load of people who get services and have never paid any taxes what so ever.. save sales tax.

In fact, nearly half the people don't pay any Fed income tax as it is.

The entire country is cutting back on services and teachers for American kids yet hiring ESOL. Where is this money coming from? And what visa did the parents of this sudden surge of ESOL kids use to enter the US?

Edited September 9, 2009 by Booyah!

[Heracles 417]

But we border an extremely poor country and it's pretty easy to get across. Australia is an island. You have to come by boat or plane, much harder and it is not near a poor country with a large population. Illegal immigration is a minor issue there.

Remember, Australia is very close to Asia. Most people do not condone it there. Especially the unions who don't want to see their wages eroded by cheap labor. I remember watching a show (border patrol) last time I was there and saw their ICE equivalent raid a restaurant. By fluke they asked a person a question and the asked to see his id, he was not a resident. So he was taken, then processed, and sent back home. He will have to apply for a visa to enter legally. It was upsetting because he left his family but the rules are the rules.

When you land in Australia every single bag is x-rayed again, coming in, to check for illegal substances and parasites. That is how stick they are. Rabies, for example, is not present there; as aren't a range of other diseases since they have kept up their quarantine.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Booyah!

[spookyturtle 9,466]

But we border an extremely poor country and it's pretty easy to get across. Australia is an island. You have to come by boat or plane, much harder and it is not near a poor country with a large population. Illegal immigration is a minor issue there.

Remember, Australia is very close to Asia. Most people do not condone it there. Especially the unions who don't want to see their wages eroded by cheap labor. I remember watching a show (border patrol) last time I was there and saw their ICE equivalent raid a restaurant. By fluke they asked a person a question and the asked to see his id, he was not a resident. So he was taken, then processed, and sent back home. He will have to apply for a visa to enter legally. It was upsetting because he left his family but the rules are the rules.

When you land in Australia every single bag is x-rayed again, coming in, to check for illegal substances and parasites. That is how stick they are. Rabies, for example, is not present there; as aren't a range of other diseases since they have kept up their quarantine.

Do the Asians have to have a visa to land in Australia? Most illegals aren't taking commercial flights here. And I dobut many are swimming to Australia. But it's not that hard to get across the Rio Grande. I think you are comparing apples to oranges. It is very difficult to get to Austalia from a poor country. You can walk to the US from Mexico. You can't even compare the two.

[HAL 9000 96]

NumbersUSA claims that the US is overpopulated. Funny claim seeing that out of 238 countries, the US ranks 177 in population density at 80 people per square mile. In comparison, Spain (110) has 220/sqm, France (94) has 280/sqm, Poland (86) has 320/sqm, Switzerland (65) has 460/sqm, Germany (54) has 600/sqm, Belgium (32) has 880/sqm and The Netherlands (27) come in at 1020/sqm.

Now, if we compare the US to Canada (227) with 7.8/sqm, then yes, we're overpopulated. Otherwise, that particular claim is hard to defend.

Has NumbersUSA figured out yet how - without immigration - we would support an ever growing population - both in real and relative terms - of retired people?

One must think a little broader than how many people can we stand up in a square mile when consideringh "over crowded"

Things like infrastructure, natural resources, medical facilities and the budget to operate with sizable free services.

Things like Available schools and available jobs.

This and more determines over crowding.

This is the first time I've ever heard of 'free services.' Not sure what country you live in... but here people pay taxes that fund those services.

Earth to Hal, Earth to Hal,

There are a butt load of people who get services and have never paid any taxes what so ever.. save sales tax.

In fact, nearly half the people don't pay any Fed income tax as it is.

Must be a real privilege being in that group of people huh Danno?

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Hal. Why dont you take some samples of them thar clouds you be floatin in?

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Why hasn't Booyah answered my questions yet? Maybe he went to bed early?

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Why hasn't Booyah answered my questions yet? Maybe he went to bed early?

Maybe cuz your question aint worth answerin.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Why hasn't Booyah answered my questions yet? Maybe he went to bed early?

Maybe cuz your question aint worth answerin.

Maybe he's with you?

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Why hasn't Booyah answered my questions yet? Maybe he went to bed early?

Maybe cuz your question aint worth answerin.

Maybe he's with you?

what? your a$$ be full of novacaine?