Does the Terms of Service need to be updated to reflect current forum policy?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

2. Is replying to a moderator in the public forum forbidden according to the TOS? I don’t actually see it anywhere? Would you please point it out to me. It’s the off topic forum so obviously saying that it causes the topic to stray does not apply.

Assuming that it is against the TOS where is the line on this? This very well implies that any thread where a moderator posts no matter what the subject will be closed if someone asks a question of the moderator.

Of course you can reply. The issue is if you were moderated and you continue to try and do the same thing that got you moderated then THAT is against the TOS. The right step (as outlined in the TOS) is to contact myself via email (admin at visa journey dot come) or PM (email is faster often). Again.... if you disagree with a mod and try to bypass their decisions then you should expect them to act accordingly; if you instead email me and I decide that your actions were in-line with the TOS then I will notify everyone and THEN you can go due what ever the issue was freely. There is of course lots of subjectivity and the mods due their best to wade through the gray areas. We can not write every little details and possible situation into the TOS. When dispute comes up -- or concerns -- I am here to make the call. I would even update the TOS for larger issues that are missing to prevent similar future situations.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Care to expand? I asked why it was insult - that was a valid question. Regarding PMs these appear to get ignored..infact it wasn't until now that a public question finally received any answers at all.

Edited September 5, 2009 by lancer1655

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Also since your here care to answer one and three please?

[mox 298]

Ewok, here's exactly what I'm talking about. Lancer believes the situation was mishandled. He flew off the handle and it seems as if some disciplinary action was taken. He pm'd you after it was all over, and from what I understand from his OP, you didn't respond. You also talked past his question. He mentioned that he opened a new thread to ask the moderator what the standard is on insults. You brushed by it by responding that if he's trying to start the same thing back up, then it's actionable. I think he understands this, but he's asking if he can start a new thread to ask a moderator a question, in this case on what defines an insult.

My own experience is that some moderators won't even respond to a pm (I'm not talking about Kathryn, who I've only exchanged pm's with once), and in the past (excluding our most recent conversation) I've had to send the same pm to you twice or three times before I got an answer. It's my opinion that there is a lack of credibility in the appeal process, from the very beginning when a thread is locked to the very top. I can't speak for Lancer, but perhaps if he had felt like he'd receive a timely response from the VJ administrative team then he would have been more likely to use those channels instead of getting himself in trouble and making more work for the moderating team.

I know what the problems are. Overworked mods, overworked Ewok, difficult-to-impossible to moderate OT forum, ad nauseam. You're addressing the problem of too few mods, which I really appreciate. But what about bringing credibility back to the appeal process? And where do we stand on moderating first before locking threads?

Edited September 5, 2009 by mox

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Yes in fact I've just gone back to the main thread where I made the comment that was "moderated" and I've gone forward from there and I asked why it was insult...I then explain my logic for my statement and I feel It wasn't one and perhaps the only objectionable thing I say is that I stand by statement....primarily because no one is telling why it was an insult in the first place. I certainly didn't insult or attack a moderator and in fact feel I was quite polite to the moderator during the situation up until that point. Perhaps Ewok is confusing me with another poster in that particular thread?

Edited September 5, 2009 by lancer1655

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Ewok, here's exactly what I'm talking about. Lancer believes the situation was mishandled. He flew off the handle and it seems as if some disciplinary action was taken. He pm'd you after it was all over, and from what I understand from his OP, you didn't respond. You also talked past his question. He mentioned that he opened a new thread to ask the moderator what the standard is on insults. You brushed by it by responding that if he's trying to start the same thing back up, then it's actionable. I think he understands this, but he's asking if he can start a new thread to ask a moderator a question, in this case on what defines an insult.

My own experience is that some moderators won't even respond to a pm (I'm not talking about Kathryn, who I've only exchanged pm's with once), and in the past (excluding our most recent conversation) I've had to send the same pm to you twice or three times before I got an answer. It's my opinion that there is a lack of credibility in the appeal process, from the very beginning when a thread is locked to the very top. I can't speak for Lancer, but perhaps if he had felt like he'd receive a timely response from the VJ administrative team then he would have been more likely to use those channels instead of getting himself in trouble and making more work for the moderating team.

I know what the problems are. Overworked mods, overworked Ewok, difficult-to-impossible to moderate OT forum, ad nauseam. You're addressing the problem of too few mods, which I really appreciate. But what about bringing credibility back to the appeal process? And where do we stand on moderating first before locking threads?

As the mods (but not public for obvious reasons) know, I was on a plane and business trip. I am justing wrapping it up and right now sitting in a cafe (Hoi Fu Center?) in Hong Kong. Luckily my blackberry has internet. I was able briefly this morning to make the relies that I did via my laptop but my time is a bit pressed. I hit on the easy replies and made sure that I got our new moderator set up (account wise). Regardless I do appreciate the feedback. My delay in PMs in this case is simpy lack of physical access to internet. Also in general I do not discuss individual problems on the open forums for privacy. I am ok with general issues. Once I get internet again (let's guess 7pm Hong Kong time) I will respond in greater detail to all items above. Please bear with me! Thank you (worn out traveler).

[mox 298]

Ahh, gotcha. Travel well, get some rest.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Be safe! Hope to hear from you later as I've had a ton of questions knocking around since Monday.

Regards,

Nate

[TBoneTX 45,267]

This thread seems to be resolving itself, and clearing the air is always good, even if some temporary anguish is involved. Nate/Lancer's apology was very classy, and this thread is of value and interest. Not sure what I can offer beyond others' thoughtful comments, but...

1. Adding more moderators is indeed a good move. At best, we only dimly realize the combination of time & effort that forum-moderation requires, and even fewer of us would think to acknowledge it, much less respect it. How difficult it is to be "on" all the time -- both on-line and with a full complement of psychology, salesmanship skills, proper diplomacy given the faceless/voiceless Internet where others' tone of voice and body language can't be perceived, and an acute internal knowledge of personal biases that need to be minimized in order to be effective at the appointed job! "Tempering justice with mercy" is truly a higher art, and almost anyone's demonstration of that skill will wax & wane on the basis of many factors.

2. Some (most? all?) of the current moderators have surely smacked themselves upside the head and thought, "What have I gotten myself into?" I also wonder if there's any coordinated or general "scheduling" of their efforts, such as "Moderators X & Y agree to scope Fora A & B from 11 a.m. till 3 p.m. Eastern time" or similar... or, is it a case of "whoever happens to be on, the load is on you" (or, worse) "be on as often as you can & handle as much as you can"?

3. The Off-Topic forum (where I've ventured perhaps three times and never care to visit again) DOES serve a valuable purpose -- keeping inappropriate or comparatively wild material (and members) out of the informational fora.

4. Although it would perhaps double the "response" load of the moderators, a brief/general public warning in threads AND a PM to specific offenders might prove most effective.

5. I do NOT like the idea of a generic "VJ Moderator" screen name. This is for the reasons that others have mentioned and ALSO because I (at least) respect the INDIVIDUALS who moderate. It means more to me to communicate with a Kathryn or a William or a Krikit or a Captain Ewok ("Geez; I've offended their sensibilities & need to adjust!") than to feel "Grrrr... I'm being harassed at the airport by the infernal Feds again -- screw THEM." We are a COMMUNITY, and the personal touch makes all the difference. The overwhelming number of us know who the respected members are even before they are appointed as moderators, and this respect needs to be benignly exploited by keeping their names known. The positive impact on the effectiveness of the moderation process may be subtle or subliminal, but every bit helps.

6. I really like the "thread closed for review" approach. This allows the obvious, and it also enables off-cooling on the part of contributors to that thread.

7. In my time here, I perceive that only a VERY few members (yet, a distinct few) are truly out-of-control or, worse (for lack of a better term), "evil." I have no clue regarding the severity or range of penalties, but mere slap-wristing (bans of a few hours?) will not do. In most "normal" instances, the moderators have to perceive who will react better to being coaxed and who needs to be kicked in the rear, and this is an art; see #1 above. I'm unsure of a solution except to expand the moderation team, ensure that no one is overworked, and ensure that no one or two moderators are left "all alone out there" for indefinite spans of time.

The moderators perform voluntarily and, too often, thanklessly. Given that we have the option to start threads in this forum to express our dissatisfaction anytime, I see no mechanism to COMPLIMENT them, such as a "Praise the Moderator" button. Wouldn't a little ongoing positive feedback energize them and inspire them to do their jobs even better? This shouldn't be solely up to Cap'n Ewok, and always behind the scenes. Since they're uncomplainingly performing a labor of love, let's, uh, "moderate" the labor with more love. The mods are people too, si man.

Edited September 5, 2009 by TBoneTX

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Ewok, here's exactly what I'm talking about. Lancer believes the situation was mishandled. He flew off the handle and it seems as if some disciplinary action was taken. He pm'd you after it was all over, and from what I understand from his OP, you didn't respond. You also talked past his question. He mentioned that he opened a new thread to ask the moderator what the standard is on insults. You brushed by it by responding that if he's trying to start the same thing back up, then it's actionable. I think he understands this, but he's asking if he can start a new thread to ask a moderator a question, in this case on what defines an insult.

My own experience is that some moderators won't even respond to a pm (I'm not talking about Kathryn, who I've only exchanged pm's with once), and in the past (excluding our most recent conversation) I've had to send the same pm to you twice or three times before I got an answer. It's my opinion that there is a lack of credibility in the appeal process, from the very beginning when a thread is locked to the very top. I can't speak for Lancer, but perhaps if he had felt like he'd receive a timely response from the VJ administrative team then he would have been more likely to use those channels instead of getting himself in trouble and making more work for the moderating team.

I know what the problems are. Overworked mods, overworked Ewok, difficult-to-impossible to moderate OT forum, ad nauseam. You're addressing the problem of too few mods, which I really appreciate. But what about bringing credibility back to the appeal process? And where do we stand on moderating first before locking threads?

I am an hour late (I guessed 7pm HKK time). Anyhow, I wanted to let you know as I posted earlier that I am adding more mods -- only a good thing once everyone is up to speed. We should have a level of mods that keep the moderation effective and not over working anyone.

Replying to your issue on the appeals process. I think it is two fold. Generally I tell the mods to not argue with members and direct them to me. Often what happens is that members either believe mods are ignoring them or they simply think the mods lack of willingness to change their decision is insulting. In these cases I think I can offer a solution. From now on when an automated "you've been mod'd" email is sent, it will now contain a link to PM the admin (and not the mod) if they think there was a mistake. I will also list several items they need to complete (what happened, a link to the thread or issue, etc.). This should "connect" members to the correct process. This again helps the front end. The back end is "me". What makes it hard for me is that I get 30-40 PMs a day and often have to manage many requests, reported threads and other items. To streamline the appeals process the "apeal" will instead be sent to me via EMAIL on the contact form. They will be directed to select "Member Account and Site Help" as the email category in the form and fill in certain information. I am MUCH better able to follow up with emails then with PM as not only do I get less, but I also can file them in a way to not miss important items like this and clear them once they are done. The process wont be "over night" to reply and resolve all issues, but this should help stream line the "appeal" process you are referring to and also help cut things like this off earlier before people on either side get frustrated (or just lose patience).

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

New suspension email:

{membername},

Your member account at VisaJourney.com has been temporarily suspended.

Your account will not be functional until {date_end} (depending on your timezone). This is an automated process and you do not need to do anything to expedite the unsuspension process.

If you wish to appeal this decision please follow these steps:

1. Go to http://www.visajourney.com/forums/contact

2. Select 'Member Account and Site Help'

3. Include the following information: Your member name, clear and concise description of the 'issue' you believe led to your suspension

4. A link to any page on VisaJourney where you may have supporting information (ex: thread you were warned about).

5. PLEASE do not follow up or harass any other member or moderator regarding this issue (give us the chance to evaluate your appeal).

After your appeal we may decide to reverse the moderation action or do nothing (decision will stand). In any case this decision by the admin is final. While you may or may not agree with it, we would appreciate your understanding with this process. For more information please consult the VisaJourney Terms of Service.

Board Address: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Also since your here care to answer one and three please?

1. "What is an insult". Answer, the TOS provides gross guidance on this however in fairness, there is 1.3 billion ways (give or take ) ways to insult someone in a manner that takes away from the community's enjoyment of VisaJourney. The measure of this is clearly (not hiding this) subjective and to the best of our ability as humanly fair and consistently applied as possible. When a member feels bullied in a particularly bad way for example, that would not be good. The short answer is the moderation team has to make a judgment call on many issues that are "gray" even if information is provided in the TOS. If this was the real world then saying almost anything would be allowed... but just like many places (lets use your job for example) appropriate language is set by your location and the people in that location. In this case, the forums and the administration. Again, the long and short is if you think a decision by the moderator was wrong, simply email me. If I disagree with you then that is that. If I agree then I will inform the moderation team that in similar situations the policy is xyz. I may even add text to the TOS if it helps. If you would to appeal issues then again please email me on the contact form with the full story.

2. See my earlier post and the TOS for the definition of Moderator as used here on VisaJourney and similarly on many many forums online.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

I am off to take a break now . If anyone is in Hong Kong you are welcome to join me if you can track down the 'wok. Dinner and drinks on me if so!

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Ewok, here's exactly what I'm talking about. Lancer believes the situation was mishandled. He flew off the handle and it seems as if some disciplinary action was taken. He pm'd you after it was all over, and from what I understand from his OP, you didn't respond. You also talked past his question. He mentioned that he opened a new thread to ask the moderator what the standard is on insults. You brushed by it by responding that if he's trying to start the same thing back up, then it's actionable. I think he understands this, but he's asking if he can start a new thread to ask a moderator a question, in this case on what defines an insult.

My own experience is that some moderators won't even respond to a pm (I'm not talking about Kathryn, who I've only exchanged pm's with once), and in the past (excluding our most recent conversation) I've had to send the same pm to you twice or three times before I got an answer. It's my opinion that there is a lack of credibility in the appeal process, from the very beginning when a thread is locked to the very top. I can't speak for Lancer, but perhaps if he had felt like he'd receive a timely response from the VJ administrative team then he would have been more likely to use those channels instead of getting himself in trouble and making more work for the moderating team.

I know what the problems are. Overworked mods, overworked Ewok, difficult-to-impossible to moderate OT forum, ad nauseam. You're addressing the problem of too few mods, which I really appreciate. But what about bringing credibility back to the appeal process? And where do we stand on moderating first before locking threads?

I am an hour late (I guessed 7pm HKK time). Anyhow, I wanted to let you know as I posted earlier that I am adding more mods -- only a good thing once everyone is up to speed. We should have a level of mods that keep the moderation effective and not over working anyone.

Replying to your issue on the appeals process. I think it is two fold. Generally I tell the mods to not argue with members and direct them to me. Often what happens is that members either believe mods are ignoring them or they simply think the mods lack of willingness to change their decision is insulting. In these cases I think I can offer a solution. From now on when an automated "you've been mod'd" email is sent, it will now contain a link to PM the admin (and not the mod) if they think there was a mistake. I will also list several items they need to complete (what happened, a link to the thread or issue, etc.). This should "connect" members to the correct process. This again helps the front end. The back end is "me". What makes it hard for me is that I get 30-40 PMs a day and often have to manage many requests, reported threads and other items. To streamline the appeals process the "apeal" will instead be sent to me via EMAIL on the contact form. They will be directed to select "Member Account and Site Help" as the email category in the form and fill in certain information. I am MUCH better able to follow up with emails then with PM as not only do I get less, but I also can file them in a way to not miss important items like this and clear them once they are done. The process wont be "over night" to reply and resolve all issues, but this should help stream line the "appeal" process you are referring to and also help cut things like this off earlier before people on either side get frustrated (or just lose patience).

Thats exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for new contact I think it should help a lot.

Edited September 5, 2009 by lancer1655

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

By the way, this week I was thinking how I would moderate and it got me thinking. I really think if I were moderating I would first contact an individual in private regarding inappropriate comments. I think when things are handled outside the light of the forum situations and misunderstandings etc can be diffused much more quickly and easily.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

That is a good suggestion, Lancer1655 - and one that we often do as well, especially when we see a thread moving in a certain direction. It very much depends on the individual(s) involved. Some are receptive; some are . . . . not.