Does the Terms of Service need to be updated to reflect current forum policy?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I thought I’d post this here in the site ideas section as I have not heard back from Ewok and it has questions related to the Scope of the Terms of Service as well as site suggestions within. First and foremost I want to extend a public apology to Kathryn for some of my later comments. They were of course uncalled for and represented my frustration with the actions taken against me.

Now that I am back in my account I will take the suggestion of the Moderator and PM you with my questions and concerns. However, before I do that I wish to extend my apology both to you and Kathryn for any disruption of the forums after the main incident regarding slavery, specifically my statements in Haza’s “Fight Fight Fight” thread as well as my own “Hey” thread.

My primary concern is that since June/July, I can no longer tell to what degree the Terms of Service apply as well as there appears to be certain unwritten rules connected with it. This may be partially due to certain elements not included in the TOS and the vagueness that the article applies to users.

1. What actually is and is not an insult on VJ? I actually tried opening a thread to ask this very question. Instead, it was closed because a moderator assumed (incorrectly) that I was trying to reopen a previous discussion. I was in fact trying to determine where the line for insults exists as it appears that no line exists at all. Instead it appears to be determined by what the moderator had for breakfast?

In my case, I was responding to a symbol being used in a user avatar that has ties to slavery and is listed as a symbol for over 500 extremist groups including the KKK. (I believe the KKK is currently NOT listed as an extremist group at this time but certainly should be). It certainly is a valid point as it has been raised when states have tried to fly it above government buildings.

So connecting the confederacy to slavery and subsequently the user who shows the symbol of the confederacy is an insult…fine, though I don’t see how it fits in with “Post Content intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against members of a protected group. For instance, racist or sexist content may be considered hate speech.” If anything I was pointing out the connection of the flag to racism and separatism and I honestly wonder if displaying it constitutes a violation of the TOS?

Either way, I would assume, however, that displaying a banner of the Hitler Youth that effectively connects me to Anti Semitism, Fascism, and the Holocaust is by definition against the TOS. Is there then a double standard here on this forum? Does the forum therefore support calling people Fascists or is it simply that a person’s signature is fair game and I can say whatever I like in my signature?

In the same train of thought the following article “Make comments in a Post either direct or implied toward another member that are purposely designed to upset, antagonize, make fun of, belittle, or otherwise instigate an argument that takes away from the personal enjoyment of the Service by other users.” does not apply when a user is pointing out something offensive in a user’s avatar (I’m not alone in this, as the NAACP has gone further then I have in the past) and it was the topic at the time. Arquably if someone posts and promotes offensive material, as users we have a right to connect them with what is offensive about said material.

2. Is replying to a moderator in the public forum forbidden according to the TOS? I don’t actually see it anywhere? Would you please point it out to me. It’s the off topic forum so obviously saying that it causes the topic to stray does not apply.

Assuming that it is against the TOS where is the line on this? This very well implies that any thread where a moderator posts no matter what the subject will be closed if someone asks a question of the moderator.

3. mod•er•a•tor: one who arbitrates

There is no arbitration on visa journey. Apparently asking questions of the moderator in the public forum is strictly forbidden (though again I don’t see this rule anywhere except when a moderator threatens a user). Instead, after taking an action instead of remaining responsible for that action, they hide behind you and issue a blanket statement like “The moderators work very hard and they are doing the best they can” and so forth.

There are no moderators on this forum only police. That’s fine, then change their title if they can not or do not have the ability to arbitrate. At the moment they seem happy to press buttons and nothing else.

Seems to me that an“Arbitration” sub forum where complaints and issues regarding enforcement of the TOS could be discussed openly to get a better idea of the TOS and what exactly it covers. This would benefit all users and make them aware of TOS interpretation. Then the “police” could rightfully become moderators again. Perhaps even a special arbitrator user would help.

If your response is “if you have a problem with the way I run things then please leave, no one is forcing you to post here” then your missing my point entirely. I wish to help improve visa journey and I sense there are definitely some consistency issues, a lack of impartialness, and a lack of transparency in the moderation (policing at the moment) policies. Certainly this issue is well represented in the Site Idea section of the forums. My favorite is the thread that says thread locking is out of control because ironically its locked. I’m not pushing any agendas, I’ve only been a user for two years and don’t fit in with any particular group.

Specifically in my case, I recognize that at the end of the incident I did directly violate the TOS but only after suffering abuse by a moderator who failed to step back and determine what if any violations were made. In this regard, I broke the TOS in frustration that a moderator was able to openly abuse a user with no regard to the rules that she has promised to represent. Again here I highlight that I was never told why what I said was considered an insult and when I made a thread to actually determine what is an insult on VJ the moderator jumped the gun and closed it and probably gave me a 12 hour ban for that action. Here I distinctly remember thinking…oh I wonder if she’ll try closing it or if she’ll actually stop for a second, realize I’m asking a valid question and respond with an appropriate answer. I would cite this line” Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the Forums” to show that if a valid question is posted and subsequently closed it is in direct violation of the TOS. In hindsight of course I probably should have posted my question in the site idea section, but because I didn’t, a moderator should have moved it there.

I look forward to your reply and as I’ve said before, if you have a complaint regarding a volunteer service then you had better be ready to invest yourself as well. I would be happy to volunteer my time to improve this forum even in the most mundane ways.

Nate

One other topic I want to bring up is that moderators have in the past posted that any problems should be sent to Ewok and he will deal with whatever issue is at hand. Unfortunately this advice doesn’t seem valid if questions are never actually answered or responded to by him. I acknowledge that he is very busy, but that then means that the above advice is poor. More reason to have an arbitration section.

Also, I’ve noticed that the signature in question in number 1 has been removed, though I’m not sure if by administrative action or the user took it down of their own accord. Either way it was openly displayed for quite sometime and was blatantly offensive.

[mox 298]

Gotta say, I wasn't surprised at all to see this. I'm actually a little surprised we don't see more posts like it these days.

I had hoped to see some change in moderating practices since the last blowout, especially since Ewok mentioned he would me making some changes, or at least clarifying some things to the moderating team. This either never happened, or some members of the moderating team didn't listen. Once again the default moderating tool seems to be locking the thread and then hammering any individual who is perceived as challenging that decision. Lancer full admits where he was wrong, but I just want to point out that it's pretty clear that it came out of pure frustration at not being understood or listened to. Really moderating team? Is this your intention? To completely lock down any dissent or discussion on where you're drawing your lines?

Here's a perfect example of the state of our moderating team. In one of the other regional forums, a moderator moved a thread under the mistaken belief that it was off-topic for the forum because the title of the thread was made in jest. After some pressure, the moderator moved the thread back, then decided to lock it instead. After some of us explained the joke, the moderator then agreed to unlock the thread, but we were all given the strict warning that the moderator did not see the humor and that we should keep that in mind. The moderator VERY clearly made a wrong decision, and a simple apology would have made everything cool. But instead we got a stern warning that, I guess, we need to be more funny.

The quality of moderation is suffering now more than ever. I've said in the past that I think we have a good moderating team. I'm going to qualify that this time. Quite frankly I think some of you need to step down. It's not a reflection on you personally, but you simply don't understand that first and foremost a moderator moderates. You do not moderate with buttons, you moderate with intelligent dialog. The button is the last course of action when nothing else has worked. You also don't seem to understand that you too are human, and it's ok to apologize to the masses when you've made a bad call. It's also ok to engage with the commoners regarding how you interpret the rules. In fact, it's not just ok, it's your freaking job.

Moderators, you really need to see locking a thread or banning a member as a failure to do your job. You need to see Lancer's situation as a failure on your part to defuse a hot situation. These kinds of failures should rarely happen, and when it does happen then you need to ask yourself and your colleagues what you could have done better to prevent it. And yes, I know sometimes it's inevitable, and there are some people who simply can't be reasoned with. But most people on VJ are intelligent enough to work their way through the immigration process, so are probably intelligent enough to be dealt with reasonably. I'm pretty sure Lancer would have benefited from the moderator in question simply re-directing his anger into intelligent dialog, and then this whole unpleasant business would have been avoided.

[Jenn! 918]

At the risk of only rephrasing "The moderators work very hard and they are doing the best they can", I can only say that moderators are not paid to do what they do and there are very few of them for a pretty large site. There is just not enough time to meet all of these member suggestions and demands.

VJ needs:

1) more moderators

2) moderators to not be members of the community already (of course they will be chosen from the community, but their moderator identities should be unknown)

When I was getting fed up with all of the complaints (really, it doesn't matter how you choose to respond to a given situation, there is always someone that will have a problem with it) and I voiced that, someone reminded me that no one was forcing me to do it. The point was well taken, and as you can all see, I am no longer a moderator.

Moderation of the kind that you're describing, mox, really does require many more man hours than are currently available.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Jenn!

[mox 298]

Moderation of the kind that you're describing, mox, really does require many more man hours than are currently available.

Or, as you say, more moderators. And I agree 100%, we need (and have needed for a long long time) more moderators. Quality moderators. Moderators whose first instinct is to moderate, not lock and ban.

I know first-hand how tough it is to moderate. I used to moderate Stratics, back in the day that Stratics was relevant. We always had fewer moderators than we wanted, but somehow we usually managed to keep threads open and the discussion flowing. This really is the first site I've ever seen where so much thread locking occurs, and it just amazes me that people just seem to accept it as normal.

I'm just going to take a stab here, but I think one problem might be that moderators think they have to take action every time somebody pushes the Report button. Yes the TOS says it's verbotten to insult somebody, but come on. We all occasionally get our dander up, and we all will occasionally call somebody an idiot or whatever. It doesn't have to be actionable, and in most cases it's no reason to lock the thread. People will disagree, sometimes colorfully, but flare-ups like these are usually over by the time the page counter flips, and the best action is often no action.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Some of us can take the initiative, and let others know when they are stepping over the line. Then, only a select few really need the moderator buttons. Of course, that means we can't always have the fun of piling on to the problem.

[Jenn! 918]

I'm just going to take a stab here, but I think one problem might be that moderators think they have to take action every time somebody pushes the Report button. Yes the TOS says it's verbotten to insult somebody, but come on. We all occasionally get our dander up, and we all will occasionally call somebody an idiot or whatever. It doesn't have to be actionable, and in most cases it's no reason to lock the thread. People will disagree, sometimes colorfully, but flare-ups like these are usually over by the time the page counter flips, and the best action is often no action.

I would agree with this. Honestly, I got to the point where I stopped responding to reports about OT threads entirely, unless it was a spam or ####### picture situation. You probably wouldn't believe the number of reports that come in about OT posts (even more surprising might be who they come from!). Unless it was your full-time job, you wouldn't have enough time to respond to all of the reports, even to simply say that you don't think a violation has been made.

Oftentimes thread locking is the fastest way to deal with a situation because you see things getting out of control and reports are flooding in and you're supposed to be out the door in 10 minutes and you just don't have time to go through and determine who said what and which reports actually indicate TOS violations, etc.

People get very upset with the moderators, as if they haven't gotten what they paid for. Oh, but wait, they haven't paid anything to use this site!

About moderators existing to moderate as opposed to take admin action, I'm not so sure about that. In the upper forums, yes, but not in OT. I'd say it's impossible to truly moderate in there. Moderators are accused of bias enough as it is. It's really not their job to arbitrate a heated political argument. As far as I see, reminders are made that people are getting out of hand and TOS violations have occurred. Such warnings largely go ignored. Then what does the moderator do? Type the warning in CAPS? Red font? When does it stop?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I'm just going to take a stab here, but I think one problem might be that moderators think they have to take action every time somebody pushes the Report button. Yes the TOS says it's verbotten to insult somebody, but come on. We all occasionally get our dander up, and we all will occasionally call somebody an idiot or whatever. It doesn't have to be actionable, and in most cases it's no reason to lock the thread. People will disagree, sometimes colorfully, but flare-ups like these are usually over by the time the page counter flips, and the best action is often no action.

I would agree with this. Honestly, I got to the point where I stopped responding to reports about OT threads entirely, unless it was a spam or ####### picture situation. You probably wouldn't believe the number of reports that come in about OT posts (even more surprising might be who they come from!). Unless it was your full-time job, you wouldn't have enough time to respond to all of the reports, even to simply say that you don't think a violation has been made.

Oftentimes thread locking is the fastest way to deal with a situation because you see things getting out of control and reports are flooding in and you're supposed to be out the door in 10 minutes and you just don't have time to go through and determine who said what and which reports actually indicate TOS violations, etc.

People get very upset with the moderators, as if they haven't gotten what they paid for. Oh, but wait, they haven't paid anything to use this site!

About moderators existing to moderate as opposed to take admin action, I'm not so sure about that. In the upper forums, yes, but not in OT. I'd say it's impossible to truly moderate in there. Moderators are accused of bias enough as it is. It's really not their job to arbitrate a heated political argument. As far as I see, reminders are made that people are getting out of hand and TOS violations have occurred. Such warnings largely go ignored. Then what does the moderator do? Type the warning in CAPS? Red font? When does it stop?

In my personal view, a PM warning would help immensely. Once a public warning is given, it becomes fair game to question the purpose and reason publicly. After a thread is locked a user's immediate thought is, I'm suddenly surrounded by walls and my opinion doesn't seem to matter....Ewok won't answer what am I to do.

[SMOKE 1,426]

VJ needs:

1) more moderators

2) moderators to not be members of the community already (of course they will be chosen from the community, but their moderator identities should be unknown)

i suggested something like that to ewok. 1 name 'VJ moderator' ...5 or how ever many passwords. so, noone knows who did what....except ewok.

Ewok won't answer what am I to do.

admin@visajourney.com

Edited September 4, 2009 by SMOKE

[Otto 83]

In my personal view, a PM warning would help immensely. Once a public warning is given, it becomes fair game to question the purpose and reason publicly.

It does not (or should not) become 'fair game.'

After a thread is locked a user's immediate thought is, I'm suddenly surrounded by walls and my opinion doesn't seem to matter....Ewok won't answer what am I to do.

Nothing is that important - life is too short.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

In my personal view, a PM warning would help immensely. Once a public warning is given, it becomes fair game to question the purpose and reason publicly.

It does not (or should not) become 'fair game.'

After a thread is locked a user's immediate thought is, I'm suddenly surrounded by walls and my opinion doesn't seem to matter....Ewok won't answer what am I to do.

Nothing is that important - life is too short.

Sorry, i'll rephrase - within the Terms of Service.

[mox 298]

Oftentimes thread locking is the fastest way to deal with a situation because you see things getting out of control and reports are flooding in and you're supposed to be out the door in 10 minutes and you just don't have time to go through and determine who said what and which reports actually indicate TOS violations, etc.

If there were enough moderators, (generic) you wouldn't feel like you have to be moderating 10 minutes before you're supposed to be out the door. But I think you make a fantastic point here. I often see "moderation" performed exactly as if the moderator were hovering over their keyboard while their spouse is outside honking the horn. It shouldn't have to be that way.

People get very upset with the moderators, as if they haven't gotten what they paid for. Oh, but wait, they haven't paid anything to use this site!

Yeah but this is like the "America love it or leave it argument." The site costs us nothing monetarily but that doesn't mean we don't all have a vested interest in its success. I know it's cheesy, but I criticize because I care. I'll stop posting when I don't care anymore.

About moderators existing to moderate as opposed to take admin action, I'm not so sure about that. In the upper forums, yes, but not in OT. I'd say it's impossible to truly moderate in there. Moderators are accused of bias enough as it is. It's really not their job to arbitrate a heated political argument. As far as I see, reminders are made that people are getting out of hand and TOS violations have occurred. Such warnings largely go ignored. Then what does the moderator do? Type the warning in CAPS? Red font? When does it stop?

If this were a pay-for site, I'd be doing a cost-benefit analysis on Off-Topic to see if it really was worth keeping around in its current form versus the time invested in keeping it from turning into Lord of the Flies. If I deemed a forum "impossible to moderate," it would either be closed, changed, or I'd figure out what aspects made it impossible to moderate and fix those aspects. OT provides an interesting dynamic to VJ but if it's out of control then it should be fixed.

I'm not sure how I feel about moderators posting under anonymous accounts. On the one hand it seems like it would solve some problems, but on the other it would make moderators more faceless, which might encourage even more dictatorial behavior. Either way, it doesn't address the core problems that we keep being assured will be addressed, which is a lack of moderators and the use of locking rather than true moderation.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

The first point I will agree with fully is the need for several new moderators. I am thinking 2-3. I am announcing (and this was in the works since last week from discussion with the mod team) the addition of 'TayRivers' to the team. They have shown an ability over time to provide a quality contribution to the moderation team. To assist them even more (and the other current mods) I am going to announce two other moderators. Right now Kathryn is taking THE BLUNT of many criticisms unfairly because she has been doing SO MUCH work (in fact over worked) given the size of the mod team and our schedules. I think everyone succeeds when none of the mod team is forced to devote so much time -- allowing each mod to focus more on individual actions and work more efficiently.

More updates in the next few weeks. The upgrades of the forum to the next software version are still in the works but I think this and related issues are far more pressing and beneficial to the community.

On a side note, the new SPAM reporting tool seemed to work very well the last two days to nail a few spammers (close their accounts) before they got to bad.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

I thought I’d post this here in the site ideas section as I have not heard back from Ewok and it has questions related to the Scope of the Terms of Service as well as site suggestions within. First and foremost I want to extend a public apology to Kathryn for some of my later comments. They were of course uncalled for and represented my frustration with the actions taken against me.

Now that I am back in my account I will take the suggestion of the Moderator and PM you with my questions and concerns. However, before I do that I wish to extend my apology both to you and Kathryn for any disruption of the forums after the main incident regarding slavery, specifically my statements in Haza’s “Fight Fight Fight” thread as well as my own “Hey” thread.

My primary concern is that since June/July, I can no longer tell to what degree the Terms of Service apply as well as there appears to be certain unwritten rules connected with it. This may be partially due to certain elements not included in the TOS and the vagueness that the article applies to users.

1. What actually is and is not an insult on VJ? I actually tried opening a thread to ask this very question. Instead, it was closed because a moderator assumed (incorrectly) that I was trying to reopen a previous discussion. I was in fact trying to determine where the line for insults exists as it appears that no line exists at all. Instead it appears to be determined by what the moderator had for breakfast?

In my case, I was responding to a symbol being used in a user avatar that has ties to slavery and is listed as a symbol for over 500 extremist groups including the KKK. (I believe the KKK is currently NOT listed as an extremist group at this time but certainly should be). It certainly is a valid point as it has been raised when states have tried to fly it above government buildings.

So connecting the confederacy to slavery and subsequently the user who shows the symbol of the confederacy is an insult…fine, though I don’t see how it fits in with “Post Content intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against members of a protected group. For instance, racist or sexist content may be considered hate speech.” If anything I was pointing out the connection of the flag to racism and separatism and I honestly wonder if displaying it constitutes a violation of the TOS?

Either way, I would assume, however, that displaying a banner of the Hitler Youth that effectively connects me to Anti Semitism, Fascism, and the Holocaust is by definition against the TOS. Is there then a double standard here on this forum? Does the forum therefore support calling people Fascists or is it simply that a person’s signature is fair game and I can say whatever I like in my signature?

In the same train of thought the following article “Make comments in a Post either direct or implied toward another member that are purposely designed to upset, antagonize, make fun of, belittle, or otherwise instigate an argument that takes away from the personal enjoyment of the Service by other users.” does not apply when a user is pointing out something offensive in a user’s avatar (I’m not alone in this, as the NAACP has gone further then I have in the past) and it was the topic at the time. Arquably if someone posts and promotes offensive material, as users we have a right to connect them with what is offensive about said material.

2. Is replying to a moderator in the public forum forbidden according to the TOS? I don’t actually see it anywhere? Would you please point it out to me. It’s the off topic forum so obviously saying that it causes the topic to stray does not apply.

Assuming that it is against the TOS where is the line on this? This very well implies that any thread where a moderator posts no matter what the subject will be closed if someone asks a question of the moderator.

3. mod•er•a•tor: one who arbitrates

There is no arbitration on visa journey. Apparently asking questions of the moderator in the public forum is strictly forbidden (though again I don’t see this rule anywhere except when a moderator threatens a user). Instead, after taking an action instead of remaining responsible for that action, they hide behind you and issue a blanket statement like “The moderators work very hard and they are doing the best they can” and so forth.

There are no moderators on this forum only police. That’s fine, then change their title if they can not or do not have the ability to arbitrate. At the moment they seem happy to press buttons and nothing else.

Seems to me that an“Arbitration” sub forum where complaints and issues regarding enforcement of the TOS could be discussed openly to get a better idea of the TOS and what exactly it covers. This would benefit all users and make them aware of TOS interpretation. Then the “police” could rightfully become moderators again. Perhaps even a special arbitrator user would help.

If your response is “if you have a problem with the way I run things then please leave, no one is forcing you to post here” then your missing my point entirely. I wish to help improve visa journey and I sense there are definitely some consistency issues, a lack of impartialness, and a lack of transparency in the moderation (policing at the moment) policies. Certainly this issue is well represented in the Site Idea section of the forums. My favorite is the thread that says thread locking is out of control because ironically its locked. I’m not pushing any agendas, I’ve only been a user for two years and don’t fit in with any particular group.

Specifically in my case, I recognize that at the end of the incident I did directly violate the TOS but only after suffering abuse by a moderator who failed to step back and determine what if any violations were made. In this regard, I broke the TOS in frustration that a moderator was able to openly abuse a user with no regard to the rules that she has promised to represent. Again here I highlight that I was never told why what I said was considered an insult and when I made a thread to actually determine what is an insult on VJ the moderator jumped the gun and closed it and probably gave me a 12 hour ban for that action. Here I distinctly remember thinking…oh I wonder if she’ll try closing it or if she’ll actually stop for a second, realize I’m asking a valid question and respond with an appropriate answer. I would cite this line” Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the Forums” to show that if a valid question is posted and subsequently closed it is in direct violation of the TOS. In hindsight of course I probably should have posted my question in the site idea section, but because I didn’t, a moderator should have moved it there.

I look forward to your reply and as I’ve said before, if you have a complaint regarding a volunteer service then you had better be ready to invest yourself as well. I would be happy to volunteer my time to improve this forum even in the most mundane ways.

Nate

One other topic I want to bring up is that moderators have in the past posted that any problems should be sent to Ewok and he will deal with whatever issue is at hand. Unfortunately this advice doesn’t seem valid if questions are never actually answered or responded to by him. I acknowledge that he is very busy, but that then means that the above advice is poor. More reason to have an arbitration section.

Also, I’ve noticed that the signature in question in number 1 has been removed, though I’m not sure if by administrative action or the user took it down of their own accord. Either way it was openly displayed for quite sometime and was blatantly offensive.

You asked what a moderator is. Here is how we define it in the TOS (similar to most online definitions with respect to forums):

Members. The term member refers to a user of the site who has completed Registration and has obtained a username. A member is in no way affiliated, paid by, or otherwise compensated by VisaJourney.com. Members have no control over the operation or presentation of VisaJourney.com other than the ability to Post and in some cases move Content in discussion forums. These limited abilities should in no way imply a relationship or affiliation with VisaJourney.com. Their actions and liabilities are fully bound by the TOS. Any opinions or statements made by a member do not necessarily reflect the opinions or beliefs of VisaJourney.com.

Moderators. The term moderator refers to a member at VisaJourney.com that has the following additional "moderation" abilities to interact on the discussion forums compared to non-moderator members: Closing Topics, Moving Topics, Temporarily Removing Topics or Posts from Public View and Temporarily Limiting Access to the discussion forums by other members. These additional abilities are only used when when a Moderator believes that a member's activity or Posted content on the discussion forums does not comply with the VisaJourney.com TOS. VisaJourney.com does not actively monitor the use of these "moderation" abilities by Moderators, however if a member disagrees with a Moderators use of these "moderation" abilities they may contact VisaJourney.com and request that the Moderators actions be reviewed. The final decision on whether to reverse or alter a Moderator's action(s) will be decided at the sole discretion of VisaJourney.com.

A moderator, being a MEMBER of VisaJourney.com, is in no way affiliated, paid by, or otherwise compensated by VisaJourney.com. Moderators have no control over the operation or presentation of VisaJourney.com other than their existing member and "moderation" abilties on the discussion forums. These limited abilities should in no way imply a relationship or affiliation with VisaJourney.com beyond any other member of the board. Their actions and liabilities are fully bound by the TOS. Any opinions or statements made by a moderator do not necessarily reflect the opinions or beliefs of VisaJourney.com. Moderators receive no compensation of any kind from VisaJourney.com.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

2. Is replying to a moderator in the public forum forbidden according to the TOS? I don’t actually see it anywhere? Would you please point it out to me. It’s the off topic forum so obviously saying that it causes the topic to stray does not apply.

Assuming that it is against the TOS where is the line on this? This very well implies that any thread where a moderator posts no matter what the subject will be closed if someone asks a question of the moderator.

Of course you can reply. The issue is if you were moderated and you continue to try and do the same thing that got you moderated then THAT is against the TOS. The right step (as outlined in the TOS) is to contact myself via email (admin at visa journey dot come) or PM (email is faster often). Again.... if you disagree with a mod and try to bypass their decisions then you should expect them to act accordingly; if you instead email me and I decide that your actions were in-line with the TOS then I will notify everyone and THEN you can go due what ever the issue was freely. There is of course lots of subjectivity and the mods due their best to wade through the gray areas. We can not write every little details and possible situation into the TOS. When dispute comes up -- or concerns -- I am here to make the call. I would even update the TOS for larger issues that are missing to prevent similar future situations.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

I'm just going to take a stab here, but I think one problem might be that moderators think they have to take action every time somebody pushes the Report button. Yes the TOS says it's verbotten to insult somebody, but come on. We all occasionally get our dander up, and we all will occasionally call somebody an idiot or whatever. It doesn't have to be actionable, and in most cases it's no reason to lock the thread. People will disagree, sometimes colorfully, but flare-ups like these are usually over by the time the page counter flips, and the best action is often no action.

Point well taken. The mods and myself do indeed have to wade through many many 'reported threads' that result in 'no action'. Many reports may be of items that concern a single member but are not globally a VJ TOS infraction. Experience and time are the ally on how to wade quickly through this.