Young Pioneers pledge to be of service to Obama

[GabiandVi 34]

Gabi, I hope that if you have school aged children, you'll watch over them carefully to make sure no one is trying to indoctrinate them to think the wrong way. And yes, liberalism is all about getting kids to think narrowly about issues....to believe there's only one right answer to everything. That indeed is the hallmark of liberalism.

Where the h*ll have you seen me suggest that? I think you are confusing me with someone else. You don't know anything about me. I have a child who is not school-aged. AND I'm a teacher. You are either too dense to understand or refuse to understand that I do NOT think that teaching children about history, math, science, etc., is indoctrination. AND I would like to see more indoctrination when it comes to what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behavior and values.

I have seen teachers on both sides of the fence who attempt to indoctrinate their students to their political persuasions. I would estimate it is more "Right Wing" indoctrination in my district than "Left Wing," but I could quote you instances that would make even you admit there is indoctrination going on, though you'd only ever admit that there is "Right Wing" indoctrination no matter how blatant the examples of "Left Wing" indoctrination I gave you. I won't quote because it would be gossipy and unprofessional on my part, but these aren't things I've read on a website. This is just in my 17 years of experience teaching in only one section of the country and in a few places around the world, so I can only imagine how prevalent this is around the country. But I don't worry so much about it because I plan to keep aware of what my daughter is learning and I will discuss it with her. I hope she is exposed to completely opposing viewpoints so that she is not narrow-minded. I want her to hear both sides and make an educated, logical conclusion, but of course, I will influence her as any good parent does. And I learned about most of these attempts by overhearing students discussing it and dismissing it. So I know that when it isn't consistent and overwhelming and when it isn't presented by someone whom the students hero-worship, it doesn't work very often.

I think you would be surprised by the content that I teach in my classroom. EVEN you would never accuse me of indoctrinating my students into conservatism, but there might be some extremist who would accuse me of being too "left wing" in my presentation.

I do not think that liberalism is about getting kids to think narrowly about issues. Can you say the same about your beliefs of conservatism?

Gabi, as a teacher, have you ever used the term indoctrinate when discussing curriculum with other teachers or school administrators and if so, were they also using that term to describe what they were trying to do with regard to student behavior, for example?

Here's the thing, Batty, we don't have "behavior" as part of our curriculum. Our curriculum is online. You can find it. There is nothing in it that includes any sort of opinion-based content. It includes skills, content facts and concepts. We do not teach, according to our official curriculum, any political perspectives or moral perspectives. Now, some people might make an argument that some of textbooks include propaganda, but how many times do I have to tell you that there is no definition of indoctrination that would include the teaching of factual content, or skills or concepts?

We do not, according to our mission, indoctrinate our children. But we may indoctrinate them unofficially, unintentionally, or subversively. There are programs that have nothing to do with our curriculum that promote certain behaviors, and YES, among teachers I have heard the term used when discussing changing behavior. "How can we indoctrinate them to understand that it is in their best interest to take an interest in their own learning?" Etc., etc., etc. Not officially, because officially we teach the curriculum, which is not behavior based. Should it be? I'll let you make your own decision about that.

But you didn't answer my question. Can you say you do not believe that conservatism is about getting kids to think narrowly about issues?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Gabi, with all due respect for your teaching - what you are really talking about is teachers needing to show impartiality regarding ideological or religious views. Talking about the Holocaust to your students and injecting the opinion of it as immoral is NOT indoctrination. In the strictest sense, it may show partiality, but one that is generally accepted by most people. History brings forward all kinds of questions regarding behavior and what is right or wrong. Again, NOT indoctrination. If you as a teacher presented to your students, the historical perspective of the mistreatment of the Native Americans, that is NOT indoctrination, even though it may be partial to particular point of view. As teacher though, you would present your students with various points of view and sources so as to nurture their own critical thinking.

[GabiandVi 34]

Gabi, with all due respect for your teaching - what you are really talking about is teachers needing to show impartiality regarding ideological or religious views.

I TOTALLY disagree. That is NOT what I'm talking about.

Talking about the Holocaust to your students and injecting the opinion of it as immoral is NOT indoctrination. In the strictest sense, it may show partiality, but one that is generally accepted by most people. History brings forward all kinds of questions regarding behavior and what is right or wrong. Again, NOT indoctrination. If you as a teacher presented to your students, the historical perspective of the mistreatment of the Native Americans, that is NOT indoctrination, even though it may be partial to particular point of view. As teacher though, you would present your students with various points of view and sources so as to nurture their own critical thinking.

I TOTALLY agree.

Are you getting the picture yet?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Can you say you do not believe that conservatism is about getting kids to think narrowly about issues?

Liberalism and conservatism defined as mindsets have less to do with a specific ideology and more to a perspective by which someone forms their ideology to. All teaching should be from both mindsets (non-politically speaking)- in terms of showing that there isn't just one right answer and one wrong answer.

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, suitable for a free man) is the belief in the importance of individual freedom.

Conservatism refers to various political and social philosophies that support tradition and the status quo.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Gabi, with all due respect for your teaching - what you are really talking about is teachers needing to show impartiality regarding ideological or religious views.

I TOTALLY disagree. That is NOT what I'm talking about.

Talking about the Holocaust to your students and injecting the opinion of it as immoral is NOT indoctrination. In the strictest sense, it may show partiality, but one that is generally accepted by most people. History brings forward all kinds of questions regarding behavior and what is right or wrong. Again, NOT indoctrination. If you as a teacher presented to your students, the historical perspective of the mistreatment of the Native Americans, that is NOT indoctrination, even though it may be partial to particular point of view. As teacher though, you would present your students with various points of view and sources so as to nurture their own critical thinking.

I TOTALLY agree.

Are you getting the picture yet?

Gabi, indocrinate is a perjorative term. I can't imagine any teacher would openly admit that they wish to indoctrinate their students, even if it is for a good purpose. Teachers should be nurturing students to think critically and independently. Indoctrinate would be telling students to think one way about something and not giving them the option to think differently. In all my years of schooling, I never experience being indoctrinated, even by some of my most opinionated teachers.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Can you say you do not believe that conservatism is about getting kids to think narrowly about issues?

Liberalism and conservatism defined as mindsets have less to do with a specific ideology and more to a perspective by which someone forms their ideology to. All teaching should be from both mindsets (non-politically speaking)- in terms of showing that there isn't just one right answer and one wrong answer.

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, suitable for a free man) is the belief in the importance of individual freedom.

Conservatism refers to various political and social philosophies that support tradition and the status quo.

Your graphs and links need to be updated. Gabbi, dont debate him, he only has talking points!

[GabiandVi 34]

Gabi, with all due respect for your teaching - what you are really talking about is teachers needing to show impartiality regarding ideological or religious views.

I TOTALLY disagree. That is NOT what I'm talking about.

Talking about the Holocaust to your students and injecting the opinion of it as immoral is NOT indoctrination. In the strictest sense, it may show partiality, but one that is generally accepted by most people. History brings forward all kinds of questions regarding behavior and what is right or wrong. Again, NOT indoctrination. If you as a teacher presented to your students, the historical perspective of the mistreatment of the Native Americans, that is NOT indoctrination, even though it may be partial to particular point of view. As teacher though, you would present your students with various points of view and sources so as to nurture their own critical thinking.

I TOTALLY agree.

Are you getting the picture yet?

Gabi, indocrinate is a perjorative term. I can't imagine any teacher would openly admit that they wish to indoctrinate their students, even if it is for a good purpose. Teachers should be nurturing students to think critically and independently. Indoctrinate would be telling students to think one way about something and not giving them the option to think differently. In all my years of schooling, I never experience being indoctrinated, even by some of my most opinionated teachers.

Batty, perjoratives are almost always words that have non-perjorative meanings. But if your mind is closed to the other meaning, then you will only see the dark suspicious side.

[Otto 83]

But if your mind is closed to the other meaning, then you will only see the dark suspicious side.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Anthony Keidis had the best parts. That's awesome. ...but I guess you'd have to have a beating bleeding heart to understand the content.

Fixed that for ya.

[GabiandVi 34]

Gabbi, dont debate him, he only has talking points!

You are right. I don't know why I waste my time. I usually find this sort of conflict distasteful, but for some reason, the complete blind faith I see here spurs me on.

And this particular issue I find alarming. I know people who lived under Calcacieu, Castro, and Mao during the Cultural Revolution and met people who lived through the Prague Spring and the August Winter and I just can't believe that more people, no matter how much they support Obama, are not concerned about the creepiness of the ending of this video. I don't realy care as much about the video itself as the acceptance of it. And I'm really only concerned about their acceptance of the end of it as though it's meaningless. And their assertion that the only reason people would object is because they don't like Obama. I would like to believe that Obama would find it creepy and inappropriate.

Edited September 4, 2009 by GabiandVi

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

Gabbi, dont debate him, he only has talking points!

You are right. I don't know why I waste my time. I usually find this sort of conflict distasteful, but for some reason, the complete blind faith I see here spurs me on.

And this particular issue I find alarming. I know people who lived under Calcacieu, Castro, and Mao during the Cultural Revolution and met people who lived through the Prague Spring and the August Winter and I just can't believe that more people, no matter how much they support Obama, are not concerned about the creepiness of the ending of this video. I don't realy care as much about the video itself as the acceptance of it. And I'm really only concerned about their acceptance of the end of it as though it's meaningless. And their assertion that the only reason people would object is because they don't like Obama. I would like to believe that Obama would find it creepy and inappropriate.

i'm sure your name is already on an email sent to the white house

[GabiandVi 34]

A perjorative is almost always has a non-perjorative meaning. But if your mind is closed to the other meaning, then you will only see the dark suspicious side.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

But did you watch the video and do you not find the ending creepy? You never answered that question. Just thought I'd give you the chance to go on record saying there is nothing creepy about it, or to admit that there is.

I don't hold Obama responsible for this video. But the ending is very creepy and totally inappropriate. It would be a really good video otherwise.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, suitable for a free man) is the belief in the importance of individual freedom.

That definition of liberalism must be from a really old dictionary coz that certainly isn't true anymore.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Sofiyya

[GabiandVi 34]

Gabbi, dont debate him, he only has talking points!

You are right. I don't know why I waste my time. I usually find this sort of conflict distasteful, but for some reason, the complete blind faith I see here spurs me on.

And this particular issue I find alarming. I know people who lived under Calcacieu, Castro, and Mao during the Cultural Revolution and met people who lived through the Prague Spring and the August Winter and I just can't believe that more people, no matter how much they support Obama, are not concerned about the creepiness of the ending of this video. I don't realy care as much about the video itself as the acceptance of it. And I'm really only concerned about their acceptance of the end of it as though it's meaningless. And their assertion that the only reason people would object is because they don't like Obama. I would like to believe that Obama would find it creepy and inappropriate.

i'm sure your name is already on an email sent to the white house

[Teacher Mark 53]

Can you say you do not believe that conservatism is about getting kids to think narrowly about issues?

Liberalism and conservatism defined as mindsets have less to do with a specific ideology and more to a perspective by which someone forms their ideology to. All teaching should be from both mindsets (non-politically speaking)- in terms of showing that there isn't just one right answer and one wrong answer.

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, suitable for a free man) is the belief in the importance of individual freedom.

Conservatism refers to various political and social philosophies that support tradition and the status quo.

Your graphs and links need to be updated. Gabbi, dont debate him, he only has talking points!

What is it that you have Marc? What do you bring to the conversation? It certainly isn't logic and reason.