John Stossel and 20/20 nail Obama-care to the wall

[zqt3344 21]

Ok well talk about one you do or should know well, the Australian one, tell us just how well it works or does not work and just how is it financed or funded?

HAZA you once again do not answer the question nor do you show us anything but gibberish and slight of hand. Like you are so educated. Gee, it really shows. And we are hillbilly clowns. Well I would rather be a hillbilly than a no nothing ivy league twit head from Australia that is for sure. Who ordered a bride from a catalog, you??? And you do not know your a$$ from a hole in the ground, yet you form opinions about things you know nothing about either. We noticed you did not know anything about Brazil, it showed. Well we retards may not be liberals and we may not be Repub either, so you never know.

What do you want me to tell you about Brazil anyway? Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that using them or the Ukraine to compare health care is a weak example.

[Heracles 417]

Ok well talk about one you do or should know well, the Australian one, tell us just how well it works or does not work and just how is it financed or funded?

They use a public / private option. The public is basically a better HMO equivalent, where a patient gets to use public hospitals for treatment but don't get to pick the doctor. However, you do get to pick your local doctor or specialist. The private option is a supplemental insurance where you get a top notch PPO equivalent, with little to no co-pay or limits.

Funding

Government: 1.5% medicare tax on your income. 2.5% for anyone earning over $100K (that's it)

Of course other taxes here and there make up the rest. No copay or any of those tricks. For you general doctor or hospital visit.

Private: Insurance is about $100 a month.

Basically, you cannot be bankrupted because of health care there, period. I also challenge anyone to go use the public and private option and then come tell when whether any of the fear is justified. Personally I have used and seen both and cannot say the system here is any better. Of course the US has some incredible doctors and specialist treatments; however, that has more to do with the physicians than the health care system. Vice versa, there are treatments other developed countries offer that they are more proficient in.

Edited August 29, 2009 by haza

[zqt3344 21]

Ok sounds viable and great from what you describe, now wonder why our King Messiah Obama has never bothered to inquire or study or ask other countries just how do you do it? And go from there and pick the best parts of each and leave out the bad parts or basically learn from someone else experience instead of this total chaos nonsense he puts out!

Still hard to imagine that Australia with small as population as it has can finance it all with just 1.5 to 3.5% tax on income on top of other taxes on income I would imagine. Glad it works for them though.

Ok well talk about one you do or should know well, the Australian one, tell us just how well it works or does not work and just how is it financed or funded?

They use a public / private option. The public is basically a better HMO equivalent, where a patient gets to use public hospitals for treatment but don't get to pick the doctor. However, you do get to pick your local doctor or specialist. The private option is a supplemental insurance where you get a top notch PPO equivalent, with little to no co-pay or limits.

Funding

Government: 1.5% medicare tax on your income. 2.5% for anyone earning over $100K (that's it)

Of course other taxes here and there make up the rest. No copay or any of those tricks. For you general doctor or hospital visit.

Private: Insurance is about $100 a month.

Basically, you cannot be bankrupted because of health care there, period. I also challenge anyone to go use the public and private option and then come tell when whether any of the fear is justified. Personally I have used and seen both and cannot say the system here is any better. Of course the US has some incredible doctors and specialist treatments; however, that has more to do with the physicians than the health care system. Vice versa, there are treatments other countries have that they are more proficient in.

[Heracles 417]

Ok sounds viable and great from what you describe, now wonder why our King Messiah Obama has never bothered to inquire or study or ask other countries just how do you do it? And go from there and pick the best parts of each and leave out the bad parts or basically learn from someone else experience instead of this total chaos nonsense he puts out!

Still hard to imagine that Australia with small as population as it has can finance it all with just 1.5 to 3.5% tax on income on top of other taxes on income I would imagine. Glad it works for them though.

You know how they do it, they don't wast $780 billion on military. The conservatives over there have modernized the government and their operational practices using the latest business principles. Government employees are both paid well and now accountable and no longer tenured. In many cases, paid more than the private sector; therefore, they get to hire the best and brightest.

Police, schools, fire, legal matters and medical are handled on the state level rather than by each individual county. That's a huge saving there alone. What we conservatives there call actual small government, rather than definition here of: smaller government * 3,441 counties = huge waste.

When I hear government is the root of evil or the problem I disagree. The government is what we make it. After all, you pay peanuts you get monkeys. When dealing with governmental departments here, it's clear that many are a good 20 years behind equivalent governmental departments I have dealt with abroad; including immigration. Rather than hate them, we need to improve them and demand changes from our leaders. after all, the leader you vote in call the shots. So when people are angry at the government, really, you should be angry at yourself.

Edited August 29, 2009 by haza

[pedroh 21]

we'd have money for healthcare if the Govt and Bush hadn't approved so much wasted money on the war.. don't talk about deficit that healthcare would cause, talk about deficit inept and not necessary military spending causes

[jcg303 1]

Well put.

It's almost like people feel we are on a sinking ship so why not raid the bar and get free drinks.

A more valid and relevant comparison would be to examine how Medicare and Medicaid are funded and run, and the pros and cons. Comparisons to other government agencies (USCIS, postal service, DMV) are meaningless in this context.

Have you missed the part about the public option being proposed as a product for purchase?

with no need to make a profit, no worry of losses, and unlimited funding (for all intents and purposes), competition would be unfairly stacked in their favor. plus, they can change the rules at any time.

you can't be a player and the ref at the same time.....

[Niels Bohr 72]

The government have been the ref, and the player for a long time. What are you talking about?

And, if we're worried about spending, what about military spending? Only one way to fund them is by taxation. And, with the public option for health care, the subscribers will be funding them.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Niels Bohr

[SMOKE 1,426]

A customer would have some sort of restitution, even if they were scammed $10 by walmart. Whereas, a car dealer can rip someone off, in the thousands, and get away with it.

he can take his azz over to target or do without if he doesn't want to pay walmarts price. that works in every area of the retail industry. if you don't want to pay X dollars for Y product you don't have to.

Walmart has a set price. No one goes in and negotiates. Whereas, when it comes to buying cars, if someone doesn't know how the system works, they can and will be screwed over for thousands; At any one of those three stages I mentioned earlier.

The dealers also have a huge problem with run of the mill style places selling cars. They want to be able to peel some plastic off and and claim that costs thousand of dollars in delivery costs / detailing. Why should a dealers force me to by from them rather than the manufacturer? I should be able to call them up and buy directly, cutting out the middle man. Otherwise I want to buy my car from a Target style joint where I don't have to waste time negotiating bullshit costs. O playing tricks at anyone of the three stages.

Australian dealers pull the same sort of stuff, however, the law comes down hard any on dodgy deals, like spot delivery. If the dealer tries to pulls that off, they themselves end up financing the car. Or face a huge fine. It's amazing what fines do for business in terms of behaving ethically.

ok dude i'm not a car dealer but i have worked in the auto industy for about 15-20 years @ dealerships for the last 14. i got news for you. when you go to a dealership to buy a new car you ARE buying it from the manufacture. those dealerships do NOT own those new cars. they are on consignment. the dealer doesn't pay for them until they are sold. if a car is on the lot for 9 months (on average) they pay a small penalty for having dead stock on the lot. the manufacture sets a 3 teir pricing system the msrp (retail), supplier price (what someone associated w/ the manufacture pays...ex. a guy that works at the place that makes the seats or tires on said vehicle) employee price (what a manufacture or dealership employee pays), destination & deliver charges (pulling the plastic off, washing, & driving it off the truck). all of that is set buy the manufacture too. (manufactures do offer the dealer a 'hold back' though....generally $500-$3000 (depending on model) they pay the dealer to cover incidentals...ie lot damage or to pay for demos the management has driven to far to be sold as new & the dealer has to buy & sell as used.

you think i'm BSing you? look up msrp on any vehicle on the internet & go verify at any dealership

now if someone goes to a dealership & just has to have the model w/ tinted windows, aftermarket wheels, ground effects, chrome mirrors & door handles......they just bought accessories from the dealership that they could have bought & installed themselves for roughly 30-40% of what the dealership charged them.....don't like it...take their azz to the accessory shop & do it themself..(go to target if you don't like the price)

you think i'm BSing you? look up said accessories on any vehicle on the internet & go verify at any dealership

used cars at a dealership...you got that one right. NO it wasn't your imagination. you did just hear a ZIP. coz now you're going to get bent over. those used cars most likely are not trade ins. they likely cars from a dealers only auto auction. they will but a program car (lease return or fleet return (car rental companies or large companies) old models provided to their employees they trade in when they update)

when those cars are purchased at auction they are sold at a fraction of the retail value. most have a $2500-$5500 dollar mark up put on them instantly. then any refurbishing that needs to be done is added to the price also....at a nice mark up also.

you think i'm BSing you? drop but that neighborhood used car lot & check out all the gold on the owner of the 20 car lots hands & neck...that $$ came from somewhere.

[SMOKE 1,426]

we'd have money for healthcare if the Govt and Bush hadn't approved so much wasted money on the war.. don't talk about deficit that healthcare would cause, talk about deficit inept and not necessary military spending causes

you need to quit listening to barney frank. military spending & healthcare have nothing to do with each other....its more of the same blame bush ####### pedroh...w/ omitting the fact that congress voted in favor of the spending too.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Well put.

It's almost like people feel we are on a sinking ship so why not raid the bar and get free drinks.

A more valid and relevant comparison would be to examine how Medicare and Medicaid are funded and run, and the pros and cons. Comparisons to other government agencies (USCIS, postal service, DMV) are meaningless in this context.

Have you missed the part about the public option being proposed as a product for purchase?

with no need to make a profit, no worry of losses, and unlimited funding (for all intents and purposes), competition would be unfairly stacked in their favor. plus, they can change the rules at any time.

you can't be a player and the ref at the same time.....

I disagree. Insurance companies would try to entice (relatively healthy) people away from the "crappy government plan."

[Danno 1,228]

we'd have money for healthcare if the Govt and Bush hadn't approved so much wasted money on the war.. don't talk about deficit that healthcare would cause, talk about deficit inept and not necessary military spending causes

you need to quit listening to barney frank. military spending & healthcare have nothing to do with each other....its more of the same blame bush ####### pedroh...w/ omitting the fact that congress voted in favor of the spending too.

Any why is it they are for Obama-stimulus spending to fuel the economy but not the kind of spending that buys everything from Uniforms to aircraft and vehicles which supply the military?

[rebeccajo 14]

we'd have money for healthcare if the Govt and Bush hadn't approved so much wasted money on the war.. don't talk about deficit that healthcare would cause, talk about deficit inept and not necessary military spending causes

you need to quit listening to barney frank. military spending & healthcare have nothing to do with each other....its more of the same blame bush ####### pedroh...w/ omitting the fact that congress voted in favor of the spending too.

Any why is it they are for Obama-stimulus spending to fuel the economy but not the kind of spending that buys everything from Uniforms to aircraft and vehicles which supply the military?

Danno -

Do you see military spending fueling the US economy right now?

[Heracles 417]

ok dude i'm not a car dealer but i have worked in the auto industy for about 15-20 years @ dealerships for the last 14. i got news for you. when you go to a dealership to buy a new car you ARE buying it from the manufacture. those dealerships do NOT own those new cars. they are on consignment. the dealer doesn't pay for them until they are sold. if a car is on the lot for 9 months (on average) they pay a small penalty for having dead stock on the lot. the manufacture sets a 3 teir pricing system the msrp (retail), supplier price (what someone associated w/ the manufacture pays...ex. a guy that works at the place that makes the seats or tires on said vehicle) employee price (what a manufacture or dealership employee pays), destination & deliver charges (pulling the plastic off, washing, & driving it off the truck). all of that is set buy the manufacture too. (manufactures do offer the dealer a 'hold back' though....generally $500-$3000 (depending on model) they pay the dealer to cover incidentals...ie lot damage or to pay for demos the management has driven to far to be sold as new & the dealer has to buy & sell as used.

A one minute google search will bring up thousand of scams of people who fall victim to car dealership tricks. I don't agree with a business model which started back in WW II on selling cars. The manufacturer should directly own the dealership. The sales staff should be given a commission and bonuses for their work and sales effort. The manufacturer should set a rock bottom price .Leaving the customer the freedom to choose between manufacturers, much in the same way you buy white goods. Finance should also similar where you are given the rate you qualify for. The problem with the current system is that is a lot of leeway for the dealer to make a huge profit at anyone of those three negotiable stages.

I sold white goods in college dude. People did their homework and we offered them a good price. Regardless, we didn't pump up the price so we had room to lower it, so it looks like we are giving them a good deal. If someone applied for finance through the company, we offered them the best rate they qualified for. We didn't buff up the rate and split the difference. We also didn't push through bullshit extend warranties. We also didn't buy their old fridge for $50 and then turn around and sell it for $400.

First car I purchased here I wanted to see what scams they pull. Some were interesting but you cannot fool a convict. I organized the finance before I went to the dealer, but didn't tell them that. I obviously looked at five dealers and got a quote from all of them. Something that is the norm in AUS, as when you buy a car there, you never pick it up on the day. Most of the times it is ordered directly from the factory to your specs. I've had to wait a few months for a car before. The tricks varied from dealer to dealer. My favorite trick was the tag team from the sales rep to the other manager who comes down. And they wanted to get me to sign stuff to get a more accurate price. Some dealers actually buffed up the price way above the RRP and then brought it down to retail to say look at his awesome deal. Good one mate..

I loved the trade-in scams. We traded in another car and the price difference and excuses for it was funny. But I got them, apparently they're not going to make much on a accord and would only give me $12k. Fair enough, so I asked the manager and finance manager to print up a form and sign that they will not sell the car for more than $12.5K since "that is all they are going to make". So I got the $13K I wanted.

Finance was my favorite. I spun a bit of bullshit that I didn't get approved because I am new, to see what rate they could give me. The interest rate he quoted was a good 3.5% higher than the one I actually received. So I asked him is that the best you can do. Then i showed him the cap one rate. Now that was funny, the excuses were a classic. Plus the warranties and paint protection and fabric protection were a classic scam too.

Needless to say, after seeing the tricks first hand, I was in and out in 1 hour when I went and purchases my wife's car. I warned them from the beginning not to waste either of our time with any of the bullshit tricks. I gave them a reasonable price and told them it's a yes or no question on whether they can do it. If it's NO, I go to another dealer as I don't have time for the bullshit. I was reasonable with the price. That dealer got it and it was a win win for all.

Edited August 29, 2009 by haza

[Ban Hammer 13,400]

Danno -

Do you see military spending fueling the US economy right now?

yup......as it's paying my paycheck, i'm stimulating away

just ask citibank, usaa bank, deca, and aafes.

[Heracles 417]

Any why is it they are for Obama-stimulus spending to fuel the economy but not the kind of spending that buys everything from Uniforms to aircraft and vehicles which supply the military?

You actually believe that is an investment? You're joking right? The military is a net loss; anyone with a basic business acumen that is not profiteering from the military knows that. If I update a city , thousands of people get to use it and thousands of jobs are created building it; which has a huge flow on effect. If you blow up xyz, which depending on the equipment used can sometimes costs thousands, it brings zero economic benefit; as is nothing. That's a no-brainer by any stretch.

Mate, it's with this sort of attitude why the US is dirt poor compared to every other developed country. People who think along your lines are people who have clearly never left their county, let alone country. So naturally they think, hey I'm doing pretty good and that foreigner coming here saying the country is a shitwhole is just talking #######. I have heard people here living in trailers assume they are doing well. In reality numerous parts of the US look like a 2nd to 3rd country. Do you think I am making this up? I have had Gary equivalents visit me and they were shocked to see how run down and poor their equivalents are. Even those guys ironically joked this is why you don’t spend all of your money on military yet live like beggars. Similar to health care, the underlying problem here is that many repubs don't even see your third world looking towns and cities as a problem, "We have the best cities and towns in the world". How does anyone fix that warped attitude and erroneous line of reasoning?

That attitude is what I cannot stand about republicans here. It is the biggest and most noticeable difference between conservatives here and in AUS. We want to and have built the country so that it is envied by the world; know as "country first". Whereas, for some warped reason, yank conservatives see investing in America as a waste of time; unlike when it comes to the $780 billion (excluding money spent in Iraq and Afghan) spent on military, as that is apparently a sound investment. No offense Danno, but the US has nothing worth invading. If someone did come over and conquer the country, they would have to bulldoze 90% of it down.

Only third world countries waste their money on military while they majority are living dirt poor, with the cities they live in run down. Is that who you want America to take after? Yes, third world countries. After all, repubs do seem to like their similar choice of health care in those countries.

Danno -

Do you see military spending fueling the US economy right now?

yup......as it's paying my paycheck, i'm stimulating away

just ask citibank, usaa bank, deca, and aafes.

Unfortunately you cannot fix stupid. Maybe we can tow it out or something.

Edited August 29, 2009 by haza