Mixed Religions

[bhajishah 4]

If the muslim husband doesnt really care (as man and head of the houshold) then basically face it he doesnt realllly care. comprehende

men dont really hit the peak of maturity physically, financially and in true regards for others. Islam has enough bad stigma in usa. Dont need these lying loser brothers dirty up the name of the religion. Dman them@@ they should be ashamed by using good and sincere women in this manner , a boat out of there!!

If the muslim husband doesnt really care (as man and head of the houshold) then basically face it he doesnt realllly care. comprehende

men dont really hit the peak of maturity physically, financially and in true regards for others until age of 40 0r so. Islam has enough bad stigma in usa. Dont need these lying loser brothers dirty up the name of the religion. Dman them@@ they should be ashamed by using good and sincere women in this manner , a boat out of there!!

[CnT4ever 1]

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

Like I said, why not take what you like and you can learn from? And leave the rest? Why attack someone that is sharing their 30 + years of experience? I am also new in my marriage, compared to most here. Her posts do not intimidate or upset me. On the contrary, I'm finding, day by day, that much of what she says is very true and happening around me. I don't take it personally or that she's talking about MY husband when she posts. She's talking about her life and her husband(s) past/present.

Matter of fact, she mentioned about how some men want to send their kids back home to raise. While we're not planning on having kids, we did have a talk about it recently. To my surprise, my husband suggested the same thing (should a miracle occur and I get pregnant). Something I would have never thought he would really suggest (as it never came up in the past - since children were not likely). So she was spot on with that one. Why shouldn't I beleive that some other stuff she's saying, may also be true?

If you really disagree, why not say, "I don't think that would ever happen with my husband...my husband and I have a different relationship...etc etc etc" Why attack her?

[Ihavequestions 419]

I can't count the number of despondent MENA fathers I've met at the weekend school who talk about giving up on trying to raise their Americanized children in this country, because they are afraid their children will call the police if they hit them... and that's the only thing they can think of to do when shouting and threatening has failed. They LONG to take their children (sullen defiant 15 year old boys or rebellious and mouthy 13 year old girls in particular) back HOME to raise...

You meet them on that end, I meet them on this end, after they've thrown their hands in the air and hauled the entire family back. When they make their big escape, their eyes are on the money, the house, the car, the white picket fence lifestyle they could never afford here. Then the harsh realization sets in, after the children start to become "Americanized," and they want out. I work in education administration. That's my profession. It has been for many years and that's what I do here, too. Because of that, I interview parents who are transferring their children in from other schools - locally, in the region, or from abroad. Walahee three times every single parent bringing their children back from America has cited the fear of the government's control of their childrens' discipline as the primary reason they're returning. It's not the economy. It's not the struggle of living as an immigrant. It's not even about practicing their faith in a secular society. It's because they can't discipline their child the way they choose to - corporally - without fearing intervention by the authorities.

It's hard to understand what that means, on the surface. Here's an example. My receptionist is frustrated with her son's gymnastics coach. Evidently, in order to make these boys into "sportsmen," he's resorted to whacking them with a stick during training, leaving welts and bruises. Mom went to the head honcho at the sports club to voice her concern and his response is this is what's necessary to teach these boys to be athletes and that no matter where she takes her son for training, it will be the same. Did she remove her son? No. She wants him to have something constructive to do with his time and she wants him to learn sports. So, three times a week, she takes him to the sports club where she knows he'll be beaten. Granted, if someone did this to one of my children I would gouge their eyes out with my fingers, however this is Egypt.

[CnT4ever 1]

I can't count the number of despondent MENA fathers I've met at the weekend school who talk about giving up on trying to raise their Americanized children in this country, because they are afraid their children will call the police if they hit them... and that's the only thing they can think of to do when shouting and threatening has failed. They LONG to take their children (sullen defiant 15 year old boys or rebellious and mouthy 13 year old girls in particular) back HOME to raise...

You meet them on that end, I meet them on this end, after they've thrown their hands in the air and hauled the entire family back. When they make their big escape, their eyes are on the money, the house, the car, the white picket fence lifestyle they could never afford here. Then the harsh realization sets in, after the children start to become "Americanized," and they want out. I work in education administration. That's my profession. It has been for many years and that's what I do here, too. Because of that, I interview parents who are transferring their children in from other schools - locally, in the region, or from abroad. Walahee three times every single parent bringing their children back from America has cited the fear of the government's control of their childrens' discipline as the primary reason they're returning. It's not the economy. It's not the struggle of living as an immigrant. It's not even about practicing their faith in a secular society. It's because they can't discipline their child the way they choose to - corporally - without fearing intervention by the authorities.

It's hard to understand what that means, on the surface. Here's an example. My receptionist is frustrated with her son's gymnastics coach. Evidently, in order to make these boys into "sportsmen," he's resorted to whacking them with a stick during training, leaving welts and bruises. Mom went to the head honcho at the sports club to voice her concern and his response is this is what's necessary to teach these boys to be athletes and that no matter where she takes her son for training, it will be the same. Did she remove her son? No. She wants him to have something constructive to do with his time and she wants him to learn sports. So, three times a week, she takes him to the sports club where she knows he'll be beaten. Granted, if someone did this to one of my children I would gouge their eyes out with my fingers, however this is Egypt.

In your experience then, it's very common for the men to want to send the kids back home for study and being raised "with culture and religion" ??? Someone else told me "that's normal" but I didn't think it was that common?

[allousa 1]

KH, I've agreed with much of what you said so far, but I do have to disagree about the part of MENA men not being involved as fathers. I have to say that Hicham is VERY HANDS on with our son. He's very involved in his sports and we both take time with him at night when reading and doing bedtime stuff. I am so very proud of my husband when it comes to him being a father.

I will conceed that there is a common thread that runs through alot of relationships, mostly cultural issues that so many of us have or will face. But these are still individual relationships and I know that I don't intend to say they are all the same. I can understand how some of what we are saying can give you pause or worry, but I know that since I came here and while I was going through the visa process, I've learned alot that has actually helped me communicate better with Hicham. Like I said earlier, we DO have issues with our son when it comes to religion that surprised me, but because of some of the things that I have read here, it DOES help me to understand where he is coming from.

NOW, if I could find a site for him to join so he could get better intel on ME.....we'd be getting some where!!!!

[sara..... 371]

I can't count the number of despondent MENA fathers I've met at the weekend school who talk about giving up on trying to raise their Americanized children in this country, because they are afraid their children will call the police if they hit them... and that's the only thing they can think of to do when shouting and threatening has failed. They LONG to take their children (sullen defiant 15 year old boys or rebellious and mouthy 13 year old girls in particular) back HOME to raise...

You meet them on that end, I meet them on this end, after they've thrown their hands in the air and hauled the entire family back. When they make their big escape, their eyes are on the money, the house, the car, the white picket fence lifestyle they could never afford here. Then the harsh realization sets in, after the children start to become "Americanized," and they want out. I work in education administration. That's my profession. It has been for many years and that's what I do here, too. Because of that, I interview parents who are transferring their children in from other schools - locally, in the region, or from abroad. Walahee three times every single parent bringing their children back from America has cited the fear of the government's control of their childrens' discipline as the primary reason they're returning. It's not the economy. It's not the struggle of living as an immigrant. It's not even about practicing their faith in a secular society. It's because they can't discipline their child the way they choose to - corporally - without fearing intervention by the authorities.

It's hard to understand what that means, on the surface. Here's an example. My receptionist is frustrated with her son's gymnastics coach. Evidently, in order to make these boys into "sportsmen," he's resorted to whacking them with a stick during training, leaving welts and bruises. Mom went to the head honcho at the sports club to voice her concern and his response is this is what's necessary to teach these boys to be athletes and that no matter where she takes her son for training, it will be the same. Did she remove her son? No. She wants him to have something constructive to do with his time and she wants him to learn sports. So, three times a week, she takes him to the sports club where she knows he'll be beaten. Granted, if someone did this to one of my children I would gouge their eyes out with my fingers, however this is Egypt.

In your experience then, it's very common for the men to want to send the kids back home for study and being raised "with culture and religion" ??? Someone else told me "that's normal" but I didn't think it was that common?

i know this thread is about mena men but its not just the men that want to send their children back home, at age 14 i had became very mouthy, questioning why i could not do what my friends were doing trying my best to do what they did...........my first year in high school about two weeks into it i came home from school our bags were packed we flew over seas that night..........was i beaten no but i did learn respect there is more to taken a child home than hitting them, body language works wonders. i also started to take Islam more seriously before i had only done my prayers because my mom woke everyone up or came and said prayer time.......

its hard being a Muslim teenager in the usa, i dont think its so bad to take ur kids home when they get to the point that they are confused or lacking respect.

just my opinion

sara

[Ihavequestions 419]

I can't count the number of despondent MENA fathers I've met at the weekend school who talk about giving up on trying to raise their Americanized children in this country, because they are afraid their children will call the police if they hit them... and that's the only thing they can think of to do when shouting and threatening has failed. They LONG to take their children (sullen defiant 15 year old boys or rebellious and mouthy 13 year old girls in particular) back HOME to raise...

You meet them on that end, I meet them on this end, after they've thrown their hands in the air and hauled the entire family back. When they make their big escape, their eyes are on the money, the house, the car, the white picket fence lifestyle they could never afford here. Then the harsh realization sets in, after the children start to become "Americanized," and they want out. I work in education administration. That's my profession. It has been for many years and that's what I do here, too. Because of that, I interview parents who are transferring their children in from other schools - locally, in the region, or from abroad. Walahee three times every single parent bringing their children back from America has cited the fear of the government's control of their childrens' discipline as the primary reason they're returning. It's not the economy. It's not the struggle of living as an immigrant. It's not even about practicing their faith in a secular society. It's because they can't discipline their child the way they choose to - corporally - without fearing intervention by the authorities.

It's hard to understand what that means, on the surface. Here's an example. My receptionist is frustrated with her son's gymnastics coach. Evidently, in order to make these boys into "sportsmen," he's resorted to whacking them with a stick during training, leaving welts and bruises. Mom went to the head honcho at the sports club to voice her concern and his response is this is what's necessary to teach these boys to be athletes and that no matter where she takes her son for training, it will be the same. Did she remove her son? No. She wants him to have something constructive to do with his time and she wants him to learn sports. So, three times a week, she takes him to the sports club where she knows he'll be beaten. Granted, if someone did this to one of my children I would gouge their eyes out with my fingers, however this is Egypt.

In your experience then, it's very common for the men to want to send the kids back home for study and being raised "with culture and religion" ??? Someone else told me "that's normal" but I didn't think it was that common?

These parents do it because they can afford the private school tuition. Their children have been educated in English. Arabic is the language of the public schools. They can't put their children in an environment where they don't have the language skills - and the public school system is woefully horrible (70 children in a classroom, teachers who don't "teach" so they can make extra money "tutoring" their students in the evening, rote learning over developing critical thinking skills, etc.). The only alternative they have is to put them into private, English-speaking schools where their children will be taught Arabic (as well as Islam) and those aren't cheap. Maybe they've saved money from abroad. Maybe they have family back in the US who will help pay tuition and fees. Maybe they've established a business in America that will pay the tab. I don't know in every single case because I don't delve into the family's finances. But, yeah, all of these families have the means to provide an alternative education. Does that mean I meet every immigrant family who re-migrates? No. Just the families of means.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

Its good to be honest, why not, will that situation fit everyone? of course not to each their own. We have had many discussions before and after here. I got the fact he wasnt (all that) into his religion, he smoked, would take a drink and didnt go pray. Had said he would do the Ramadan when here fine....then teach me the hows and whats etc.....explain to me and help me to know. He didnt seem to know himself, to me it was just what his family had done as tradition and all he knew. This didnt help me attttttttt all. Brothers pray, father prays he didnt when there. He did the smoke and drink, none of family would come near any of this. So i was getting very mixed messages and in our talks i would ask how do you seem to choose and pick what you want to follow? of course always became a heated discussion, but come on you either are or your not.

So the fasting time comes, after few days i was getting used to the routine etc etc... then one day he calls and says he had just had his lunch, he ate....so this to me shows he is not dedicated at all and one person even invited him to go pray and he told them he couldnt...why couldnt he???? So as of now the only thing i see is the not eating pork.

And after these talks about picking and choosing he acknowledges he knows of the things he does wrong and PROBABLY AT ABOUT THE AGE OF 50 HE MAY BECOME MORE TRUE TO HIS WAYS so yes they can say this.

[Mommy2ZaidnSalma 11]

I think alot of the things your saying KH are based on your personal experience sadly, that, or Jordan (lived there for a year) is alot different from Egypt, Morocco, Etc. The kids in jordan definitly got time outs, I rarely saw a kid spanked, and 2 of my bro in laws are stay at home dads. Your right when saying my husband has ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE with a child, however he stood by my side in the delivery room, and took to being a dad from day 1. When zaid was 5 weeks old I went back to work and Sofyan took care of Colicky Zaid for 2 months day in and day out. Diapers, Formula, Hours of crying, he did it all. Now that Zaid is getting bigger Sofyan is patient as ever, even uses "time out" several times a day. You cannot stereo type an entire country/region of people based on a few experiences you have had/heard of. There are many signs or warnings that can prepare you for your husband to turn into a piece of ###### husband/dad. If he is aggresive or violent towards you or his family, chances are he will be with his kids. Point is, 99% of the time you KNOW what your getting yourself into. All men are different, its up to you to take off the rose colored glasses and be a good judge of character before you put a ring on your finger.

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

I know I havent been married that long and my husband isnt here yet, but when I was in Egypt from Feb to Apr this last year, Ahmed did the fasting for Lent with me. He would take to church for services. He wont go in with me but waited outside for me. I found so wonderful he did that for me. Now with Ramadan is upon us, I m fasting with him even though Im not with him.

That is wonderful! Your husband is doing exactly what a Muslim man who marries a devout Christian woman is required in Islam to do..... support his wife in the practice of her faith... make sure she can attend services, and fulfill all the requirements of her faith!

I didn't know this before my last trip to Egypt, but I was told that Muslim Egyptians are not legally allowed to enter churches in Egypt. Although I'm not surprised that he didn't enter... as many Muslims are quite uncomfortable around Christian statues and people bowing in front of and kissing what they consider "idols"...

Insha'allah he will always support you in the practice of your faith, and continue to show respect for your religious traditions as you are showing solidarity with his.

I disagree with Muslims who don't believe that anyone besides a Muslim can go to heaven.. Why would Allah allow Muslim men to marry Christian and Jewish women (who become the mothers of children raised to be Muslims) if Allah knew that these wives and mothers wouldn't be in heaven with their husbands and children? Just doesn't make sense to me.... How could it be a part of Allah's plan to teach children that their Mothers are doomed to Hell because they are on a different path? I'm just so sure that it's entirely possible that more than ONE path leads to the same destination...

God bless your husband for being an example to you of a good Muslim husband.

Not trying to pick, but Im pretty sure its not a problem of being legally not allowed. It actually is allowed, but they get questioned either way if they do go in. I have seen, and known of muslims in Egypt who went inside churches. Its not like they are all tumbling over each other to get it, but it is allowed.

[doodlebugg 10]

Much to be considered LONG before marriage... and even LONGER before having kids.. When your kids go to the Islamic weekend school and hear the fate of Non-Muslims on the Judgement Day (particularly Non-Muslims who had the opportunity to accept Islam and chose not to...) you'll be fuming and it won't be easy to keep quiet. No Mother wants her kids to be taught that Mom's skin is going to be torn off, then grow back so it can be torn off again.... etc. etc. etc. because she didn't accept Dad's religion....

Ok I have to ask. Why on earth would someone put a child in a school like that??? I would hope that if the mother is either Christian or Jewish that she would have a say in what school her child went to and I would hope the father would direct them towards a much more moderate teaching.

"Those who have attained to faith,

and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures

and the Christians and the Sabians,

and who believe in God and the last day and who do good works

shall have their reward with their Sustainer;

on them shall be no fear no shall they grieve."

Surah al Baqarah 2:62

Pretty crystal clear to me right there.

I know that there are muslims that believe otherwise due to:

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God),

it will never be accepted from him." [3:85]

But I truly believe "islam" in this verse means submission. Especially since it's directly preceded by:

"Say: "We believe in God,

and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham,

Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and in the books given to Moses, Jesus,

and the Prophets from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another

among them, and to God we submit." [3:84]

As for children I just know what I see with my husband in as far as how he acts with his step daughters and I have to say he is the most gentle, loving, kind stepdad a girl could ever ask for. He does get upset when they sleep over other people's houses since apparently that's not the norm where he's from, he gets upset when my oldest is out with a bunch of kids including boys, but by upset I mean he mopes for a bit, goes for a walk or out on the porch for a smoke and then is over it. That being said I know in my heart that if we ever do have a child of our own and it is a girl he will want to move back to Egypt right before she hits puberty. Actually I think I'd like that as well. It is hard for the kids here who are muslim to adhere to their religion once they are older. Heck even for non muslims it's so very hard not to succumb to peer pressure!

[tany1157 161]

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

And an even BETTER question would be:

Why do some women always believe EVERY post written about any MENA Man (clearly I was NOT married to your husband) is "really" about THEIR MAN????

I for one have never written anything about YOUR husband... I'm 100% certain you know more about him... so why do you always think "some members" are claiming to know him better than you do?

I think I've mentioned to you before that you can just put your fingers in your ears and say as loud as you can "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" and ignore EVERYTHING I post..

really?

QUOTE (KHPerfectMatch @ Aug 13 2009, 11:20 PM) *

For those of you married to Muslim men and planning to raise their children (who will of COURSE be MUSLIM) here in the USA, start buying parenting books for your husbands... because they have very LITTLE experience with any method of controlling the behavior of children other than endless threats (VERY LOUD ONES) and eventually when shouting fails, as it always does, they move on to CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.

Eventually the subject of moving back to MENA (to raise the kids) will undoubtably come up on a REGULAR basis...and of course the Male MENA breadwinner can't leave his job here in the USA, so be prepared for the suggestion that you take the kids and go live in MENA "for the sake of the children"...

I've been watching this scenario play out for 30 years.. and it hasn't improved much with this younger generation of MENA fathers. Perhaps the exception is those born and raised here, who marry someone with a similar cultural background born and raised here... (And those couples aren't on VJ..) They seem to manage raising kids here more effectively... or at least it looks that way from the outside.

that reads pretty inclusive to me. you cast a really huge net there.

Denial Ain't Just a River in Egypt... Go ahead, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and say "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I can't HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That will solve EVERYTHING

according to you here, those of us who disagree are simply in denial.

myself, and anyone else who wants to can put our collective fingers in our ears and ignore what you post, as you say. but i object to the idea that doing so = i'm in denial. that's the condescension i'm talking about.

If the shib shib fits wear it, if it doesn't pass it by... I'll be over joyed to hear in 20 years that I was 100% wrong... and your sons are all Hafiz Quran and preparing to study at El Azhar...

I'm not going to go back to that thread and cut and paste the ENTIRE thread... but I stand by my statement that women who believe that what they observed on a few brief visits to their husband's country, where they saw (their husband's) Arab Muslim parents calmly, and patiently, raising Arab Muslim Children, in Arab Muslim Countries is a good predictor of how their husbands will be raising half Arab children in Non-Muslim homes, in a Non-Muslim country. Which is actually a country very biased AGAINST ISLAM, are simply in some sort of dream world.

There's no comparison what so ever! In MENA the "village" collectively raises the children, who are raised to believe that conforming (at least outwardly for the sake of appearances) and the honor of the family is Always more important that "self-fulfillment" ... here this very liberal and disconnected society (no village at ALL) encourages "individual freedom and self-expression" not conformity, no matter what their father wants or demands...

Thinking that only OTHER people have husbands that don't have (Western style) parenting skills to raise their American born kids while trying to raise them to be Muslim in this country, which is difficult even when BOTH parents are Muslim, is extremely naive and yes - shows that they are likely in DENIAL...

I can't count the number of despondent MENA fathers I've met at the weekend school who talk about giving up on trying to raise their Americanized children in this country, because they are afraid their children will call the police if they hit them... and that's the only thing they can think of to do when shouting and threatening has failed. They LONG to take their children (sullen defiant 15 year old boys or rebellious and mouthy 13 year old girls in particular) back HOME to raise...

And I know MORE THAN A FEW women who have taken their kids back to MENA to raise at the request of the father. Back home they are not individually responsible for raising their own children.. they have HUGE extended families and neighbors who are like family (and willing to smack someone else's kid if need be) that collectively instill the value of conformity on the youth. And father's play a very MINOR role in child rearing if ANY... (more like the "good old days" when your Mom would say "if you don't stop that I'm going to tell your Father when he gets home!!!) MENA Men don't grow up expecting to actually PARENT their children. They are given the role of PROVIDING for them... Women do the raising...

I know your husband is different... And I'm full of So I promise not to say anything else that isn't exactly what everyone wants to hear...

And I have yet to see a even ONE immigrant MENA father put his child in a "timeout" or talk calmly to them when they are misbehaving... however I have seen them smacked and whacked, shouted at and slapped. Or totally ignored and allowed to destroy everything in sight...

I appreciate your advice. I guess I am one of the lucky ladies, because my MENA fiance gets upset with me when I spank or yell at my son, he will say, baby, he's just a kid....then I get upset LOL because I explain to him that I can't just let my son do what he wants....after reading all this stuff, I am feeling very lucky to have such a special and understanding man!!

[sandinista! 1,816]

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

Like I said, why not take what you like and you can learn from? And leave the rest? Why attack someone that is sharing their 30 + years of experience? I am also new in my marriage, compared to most here. Her posts do not intimidate or upset me. On the contrary, I'm finding, day by day, that much of what she says is very true and happening around me. I don't take it personally or that she's talking about MY husband when she posts. She's talking about her life and her husband(s) past/present.

Matter of fact, she mentioned about how some men want to send their kids back home to raise. While we're not planning on having kids, we did have a talk about it recently. To my surprise, my husband suggested the same thing (should a miracle occur and I get pregnant). Something I would have never thought he would really suggest (as it never came up in the past - since children were not likely). So she was spot on with that one. Why shouldn't I beleive that some other stuff she's saying, may also be true?

If you really disagree, why not say, "I don't think that would ever happen with my husband...my husband and I have a different relationship...etc etc etc" Why attack her?

so the ones making broad, sweeping generalizations here, about men they don't personally know, about relationships they have no insight into whatsoever because they know nothing about either person in the relationship other than their place of birth-those are the ones that get a free pass, and everyone else should just swallow it down without a word of objection? how is this any different from the cretins in off topic yammering on about "arabs this" or "muslims that"? a friend of mine has been told in off topic before that because she's married to a jordanian, she could expect to be beaten on a regular basis. this guy had claimed to see that happen over and over when he was there-but what did his experience have to do with my friend and her husband? nothing. and she was right to point out how ridiculous this guy was. how is this any different? it's the same kind of slander of an entire group of people, of an entire set of relationships. the attacks came FIRST from HER end, not those who responded. astarte just provided a great post, full of insight and experience that was very informative. how come yr not asking "why can't kh's posts stick to her own personal insights and experiences like astarte was able to do without telling everyone that their husbands are going to start beating their kids, and if you don't believe it, well yr dumb a## is just in denial"?

[tany1157 161]

..............................

[AngelK96 0]

Are there many couples here with mixed religions? How do you deal with it?

My husband is Muslim and I'm what you would call Agnostic/Spiritual.

We love each other dearly... I'm trying to learn about Islam - even if I don't believe it. Sometimes it leads to religious debates. We just have very idfferent ideas.

Has anyone been through or is anyone going through anything similar?

Agree to Disagree and Respect.