Mixed Religions

[nurse1967 287]

WOW it must be amazing to be sooooooo righteous and all knowing about everything Arab. Oh and I forgot to mention psychic too. I don't know why all us women in the MENA forum didn't consult with the experts before we wasted our time marrying men we would never be able to satisfy. Who knew???

[CnT4ever 1]

WOW it must be amazing to be sooooooo righteous and all knowing about everything Arab. Oh and I forgot to mention psychic too. I don't know why all us women in the MENA forum didn't consult with the experts before we wasted our time marrying men we would never be able to satisfy. Who knew???

Is that really how you see it? Because that's kinda sad... Why not take the good information from people with EXPERIENCE and leave what you don't like? Why resort to childish name calling? "Sooooo righteous...psychic too" If you are secure in your relationship, why does it bother you so much?

[sandinista! 1,816]

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

[sandinista! 1,816]

religion has been one of the biggest issues in my marriage, and we are actually both of the same faith. the difference is that i am a semi-recent convert, and he was raised muslim. he is much more observant than i am, and i still cling to a lot of my cultural ties (our last disagreement was about whether or not i would decorate for christmas... yeah, i don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, but really, how much does a pine tree and silver balls and lights have to do with Jesus?!)

Other issues we have had have been ones like circumcision (it's the Muslim belief that it's mandatory, but the idea of doing that to a baby turns my stomach), having opposite-gender friends, and clothing.

I guess my point is just that even if you are the same religion, you'll still have issues. Every relationship has its problems, but does that mean that it's not worth taking a chance on? I guess that's up to you to decide.

Response to the bolded part.

Wile treee decorated with balls and tinsel don't have anything to do with Jesus, the practice is from paganism, and that would be a problem for a lot of practicing Muslims. It's not a practice associated with One God.

Pagans had tinsel? I do realize that, it is just hard to let go of it when it's been such an integral part of your life for so long. One of my friends had the suggestion to call it a solstice tree, decorate it with moons and stars so it looked Islamic, and take it down before Christmas day to appease him. I'm not sure what will end up happening. I only converted a little over a year ago, I spent last December in Egypt so it didn't really bother me to not decorate, but this year I'll be at home, and it makes me really sad to think of not decorating.

in their own way, yeah they did. the practice of hanging tinsel from trees originated from pagans hanging the innards of ritually slaughtered animals on trees as tribute to their gods. and how would calling it a "solstice tree" appease anyone? there's nothing islamic about commemorating the solstice, and sticking moons and stars on a tree does absolutely nothing to change that.

Yeah, I got that. I think you missed the part where I said it's an emotional attachment, not a rational one. I didn't say that there was anything Islamic about sticking moons and stars on trees, I merely said that was a suggestion that a friend gave me. Please don't go all super-Muslimah on me, ok? Don't need it.

really? because i read "Pagans had tinsel? " as some kind of snide derision for her comment that the practices you mentioned were based on practices originating from pagans. which she was 100% right about. and what are you on about with the super muslimah bit? i never said you said anything. i didn't think your friend's suggestion would appease anyone, and said so. the idea that a 'solstice tree' would be more palatable to a muslim that has issues with a christmas tree was just funny.

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

I find the thread to be intriguing. Everyone has their own experiences and story to share. Theres millions of women (Arab or not) married to Arab men and each of us have very different stories to share and opinions about it. I would hope no one takes things personal or assumes that when someone states their opinion that its supposed to be your own situation bcz more than likely its not.

[hollykay 0]

I know I havent been married that long and my husband isnt here yet, but when I was in Egypt from Feb to Apr this last year, Ahmed did the fasting for Lent with me. He would take to church for services. He wont go in with me but waited outside for me. I found so wonderful he did that for me. Now with Ramadan is upon us, I m fasting with him even though Im not with him.

[Y's_habibitk 2]

I know I havent been married that long and my husband isnt here yet, but when I was in Egypt from Feb to Apr this last year, Ahmed did the fasting for Lent with me. He would take to church for services. He wont go in with me but waited outside for me. I found so wonderful he did that for me. Now with Ramadan is upon us, I m fasting with him even though Im not with him.

that is endearing. Thats huge that he fasted with you for lent. i think its very sweet

[merijan 0]

Maybe he wasn't supposed to marry me, but he did.

Precisely my point... he isn't all "that" religious if he did, which might save you from problems later... (or be an indicator that a different set of problems could be in the works since he has no qualms about picking and chosing, those "rules" that he will or will not follow, when it comes to issues of practicing Islam...)

My first husband (Arab/"Muslim") told me that he was so far removed from practicing Islam that he couldn't remember a single surah (verse) from Quran to recite even IF he wanted to pray. I thought that was a sign that I wouldn't have problems with him forcing his religion on me, my parents were THRILLED that he wouldn't try to convert me, and I was right.

What I failed to recognize was the consequences on his character of his choice to turn his back 100% on the morals and values he was raised with. He committed adultery, he became an alcoholic, a drug addict, and now (25 years later) I'm getting calls from the police asking me if I happen to know if he's back in the country. The detective indicated he would like to find him because of his very ACTIVE life on the internet... (he's back in his MENA country married for the 3rd time to a 25 year old with a newborn baby, at the ripe old age of 51.) I hate to THINK what kind of "ACTIVE LIFE" he's having that a detective would like to question him about... And thankful that finally (homeless and living in an old car, or with his crack addicted girl friend) he chose to go back to MENA. He was an embarassment to his 3 sons, his brothers who live here, and the Arab community in general.

I took a 180 degree turn when I remarried 9 years after my divorce from Mr. Secular. I married Mr. Super Muslim... thinking I would avoid a man who would commit adultery, use drugs and alcohol, etc. etc. A man who would accept my Arab/American son, and help me keep the committment I made to the Imam (Muslim "minister") (when I married Mr. Secular many years before), that I would teach any children from the marriage about Islam... Mr. Super Muslim could be the role model and spiritual guide that my son's (mostly absent) father WAS NOT.

And I was right! What I failed to recognize was the "side effects" of living with someone who is a SUPER MUSLIM... Even though we discussed AT LENGTH many of the issues people have raised on this thread that I was concerned about before marriage, and I even put in my marriage contract that I was allowed to celebrate Christmas... everything changed AFTER we were married, and got even WORSE after my son and I accepted Islam. Christmas was gone, and ALL OTHER celebrations of holidays, birthdays, etc. We were not allowed to eat in restaurants that served alcohol, and forbidden a single night of camping at our favorite State Park because it was named "Devil's Lake" (I KID YOU NOT!)

I wasn't allowed to hug my male cousins at family gatherings, my son was forbidden to swim in a public pool (to prevent his 9 year old eyes from seeing a woman in a bathing suit). I had to take him in lakes to swim, (with me FULLY COVERED)... And the older my son got and the more he rebelled against these restrictions the more impatient and cold Mr. Super Muslim became with him. Eventually turning his back TOTALLY on the step-son who had ADORED him. After 8 years of marriage I couldn't take it any more. I divorced him and quit practicing "hIslam" (male dominated Islam) until I recovered and made the choice to return to Islam on MY OWN TERMS.

I then mistakenly married Mr. FAKE MUSLIM... a man who was able to fool everyone around him into believing he was a GREAT MUSLIM. Devout yet open-minded and well assimilated into the America society/culture after living here for 22 years. What they didn't know (and believe me neither did I!) was that he was only Muslim for SHOW. That he was quietly involved in many immoral activities behind everyone's backs. It wasn't until 10 months into our marriage that I discovered the truth... and SET HIM FREE!

I'm now married to my "perfect match"... someone who seems to share my "to each his own" or "live and let live" relaxed point of view about how each person choses to practice his/her religion. He's much more devout in his practice of Islam, but doesn't give me any grief about it. We have plenty of other points of disagreement and challenges, but not in the area of religion. (so far) However the issues even if they do come up will be much less difficult to "manage" because my son is not living with us, his children are not living with us, and we will not be having any children together.

I think what consenting adults chose to do, chose to agree to, chose to accept, or put up with is up to them... That's why I always frame my opposition to marriages with "mis-matched belief systems" in line with the issue of raising children.

My son does not (currently) share my belief system (even though he was a much more devout Muslim in the beginning than I EVER have been...) He does not share his Grandparents beliefs either ("Orthodox" Christians -which is how I was raised) even though they are VERY influential in his life, and have always been. He picks and choses whatever suits his own desire to do or avoid doing various things at any given moment in time. It pains me greatly to see him "blowing in the wind" uncertain of what is correct, or true, or right, IF ANYTHING...

After Mr. Secular, Mr. Super Muslim, and Mr. Fake Muslim, I am with Mr. Laid Back Muslim -my PerfectMatch.. (totally devout himself, but extremely tolerant of the beliefs and level of practice of others...) And at our "advanced age", it's doubtful that either one of us will experience earth shattering changes in our values, morals and belief systems.

Should your SO (some day) take a turn in a different direction, be sure to remind him that you haven't changed ... You are the same person with the same beliefs that he freely chose to marry. Hopefully he will remember that and keep his promises about what role his religion would play in your life and the upbringing of your children.

I wish you both success, happiness, and "synchronization of core values".. for the sake of "peace and harmony" in the family.

You need to write a book... something... its a story I have heard many times , experienced myself in some way but ur story is even more interesting and it could help alot of people... the fact that u did not give up and finally you have what u want.. Inshallah you are an inspiration..

As far as many who have married a Muslim man and u are not Muslim... There are so many diff situations. So the main thing for u is to talk talk talk and talk some more, and then u can talk... talk.. abut the whole issue of raising children, what they expect when they are older...etc.. I know some people who are Christian and they married a Muslim man.It worked , but they gave the children more of a Muslim upbringing, and in the end the children where Muslim, The women even participated in the Masjid more than thier church...

And changeing... ya the men do that alot... Its not right in some ways, even though I am Muslim.. I believe if they choose to marry you the way you are now they have no right to change u later... They choose it. The main issue is... raising the kids... and thats what should be discussed at length before u get married.

I hope all a full life a good marriage.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

WOW it must be amazing to be sooooooo righteous and all knowing about everything Arab. Oh and I forgot to mention psychic too. I don't know why all us women in the MENA forum didn't consult with the experts before we wasted our time marrying men we would never be able to satisfy. Who knew???

I'm like soooooooooooo sure your post wasn't directed at me....

In fact it couldn't POSSIBLY be about me because I never said I was righteous. I actually said I"m not a very "good Muslim"... I didn't say I was "all knowing" I said I didn't know as much as I THOUGHT I did.... I KNOW I never said ANYTHING that could be construed as a claim of being "Psychic" Geez I'd have to turn in my "Psychic" card (if I had one) considering how poorly I've done at seeing the future with men!

I do think you are right.. if you had an opportunity to consult with someone in order to better understand what you were doing and missed that opportunity that's too bad...

It must be awful "wasting your time marrying a man you can't satisfy" (YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE).... that must be really frustrating... no wonder you're so sarcastic and insulting.... Just remember, you're free to scroll right past anything that might not support your fantasies or your reality.. No one can force you to learn ANYTHING...

Good thing I put on my Big Girl panties this morning.... Sticks and Stones from snarky VJ posters don't hurt half as bad as a divorce...

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

And an even BETTER question would be:

Why do some women always believe EVERY post written about any MENA Man (clearly I was NOT married to your husband) is "really" about THEIR MAN????

I for one have never written anything about YOUR husband... I'm 100% certain you know more about him... so why do you always think "some members" are claiming to know him better than you do?

I think I've mentioned to you before that you can just put your fingers in your ears and say as loud as you can "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" and ignore EVERYTHING I post..

[100% Al Ahly Fan 53]

Interesting posts....wonder who'll say what next.....ooooohhh the suspense of it all

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

I know I havent been married that long and my husband isnt here yet, but when I was in Egypt from Feb to Apr this last year, Ahmed did the fasting for Lent with me. He would take to church for services. He wont go in with me but waited outside for me. I found so wonderful he did that for me. Now with Ramadan is upon us, I m fasting with him even though Im not with him.

That is wonderful! Your husband is doing exactly what a Muslim man who marries a devout Christian woman is required in Islam to do..... support his wife in the practice of her faith... make sure she can attend services, and fulfill all the requirements of her faith!

I didn't know this before my last trip to Egypt, but I was told that Muslim Egyptians are not legally allowed to enter churches in Egypt. Although I'm not surprised that he didn't enter... as many Muslims are quite uncomfortable around Christian statues and people bowing in front of and kissing what they consider "idols"...

Insha'allah he will always support you in the practice of your faith, and continue to show respect for your religious traditions as you are showing solidarity with his.

I disagree with Muslims who don't believe that anyone besides a Muslim can go to heaven.. Why would Allah allow Muslim men to marry Christian and Jewish women (who become the mothers of children raised to be Muslims) if Allah knew that these wives and mothers wouldn't be in heaven with their husbands and children? Just doesn't make sense to me.... How could it be a part of Allah's plan to teach children that their Mothers are doomed to Hell because they are on a different path? I'm just so sure that it's entirely possible that more than ONE path leads to the same destination...

God bless your husband for being an example to you of a good Muslim husband.

[sandinista! 1,816]

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

And an even BETTER question would be:

Why do some women always believe EVERY post written about any MENA Man (clearly I was NOT married to your husband) is "really" about THEIR MAN????

I for one have never written anything about YOUR husband... I'm 100% certain you know more about him... so why do you always think "some members" are claiming to know him better than you do?

I think I've mentioned to you before that you can just put your fingers in your ears and say as loud as you can "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" and ignore EVERYTHING I post..

really?

QUOTE (KHPerfectMatch @ Aug 13 2009, 11:20 PM) *

For those of you married to Muslim men and planning to raise their children (who will of COURSE be MUSLIM) here in the USA, start buying parenting books for your husbands... because they have very LITTLE experience with any method of controlling the behavior of children other than endless threats (VERY LOUD ONES) and eventually when shouting fails, as it always does, they move on to CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.

Eventually the subject of moving back to MENA (to raise the kids) will undoubtably come up on a REGULAR basis...and of course the Male MENA breadwinner can't leave his job here in the USA, so be prepared for the suggestion that you take the kids and go live in MENA "for the sake of the children"...

I've been watching this scenario play out for 30 years.. and it hasn't improved much with this younger generation of MENA fathers. Perhaps the exception is those born and raised here, who marry someone with a similar cultural background born and raised here... (And those couples aren't on VJ..) They seem to manage raising kids here more effectively... or at least it looks that way from the outside.

that reads pretty inclusive to me. you cast a really huge net there.

Denial Ain't Just a River in Egypt... Go ahead, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and say "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I can't HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That will solve EVERYTHING

according to you here, those of us who disagree are simply in denial.

myself, and anyone else who wants to can put our collective fingers in our ears and ignore what you post, as you say. but i object to the idea that doing so = i'm in denial. that's the condescension i'm talking about.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

And an even BETTER question would be:

Why do some women always believe EVERY post written about any MENA Man (clearly I was NOT married to your husband) is "really" about THEIR MAN????

I for one have never written anything about YOUR husband... I'm 100% certain you know more about him... so why do you always think "some members" are claiming to know him better than you do?

I think I've mentioned to you before that you can just put your fingers in your ears and say as loud as you can "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" and ignore EVERYTHING I post..

really?

QUOTE (KHPerfectMatch @ Aug 13 2009, 11:20 PM) *

For those of you married to Muslim men and planning to raise their children (who will of COURSE be MUSLIM) here in the USA, start buying parenting books for your husbands... because they have very LITTLE experience with any method of controlling the behavior of children other than endless threats (VERY LOUD ONES) and eventually when shouting fails, as it always does, they move on to CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.

Eventually the subject of moving back to MENA (to raise the kids) will undoubtably come up on a REGULAR basis...and of course the Male MENA breadwinner can't leave his job here in the USA, so be prepared for the suggestion that you take the kids and go live in MENA "for the sake of the children"...

I've been watching this scenario play out for 30 years.. and it hasn't improved much with this younger generation of MENA fathers. Perhaps the exception is those born and raised here, who marry someone with a similar cultural background born and raised here... (And those couples aren't on VJ..) They seem to manage raising kids here more effectively... or at least it looks that way from the outside.

that reads pretty inclusive to me. you cast a really huge net there.

Denial Ain't Just a River in Egypt... Go ahead, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and say "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I can't HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That will solve EVERYTHING

according to you here, those of us who disagree are simply in denial.

myself, and anyone else who wants to can put our collective fingers in our ears and ignore what you post, as you say. but i object to the idea that doing so = i'm in denial. that's the condescension i'm talking about.

If the shib shib fits wear it, if it doesn't pass it by... I'll be over joyed to hear in 20 years that I was 100% wrong... and your sons are all Hafiz Quran and preparing to study at El Azhar...

I'm not going to go back to that thread and cut and paste the ENTIRE thread... but I stand by my statement that women who believe that what they observed on a few brief visits to their husband's country, where they saw (their husband's) Arab Muslim parents calmly, and patiently, raising Arab Muslim Children, in Arab Muslim Countries is a good predictor of how their husbands will be raising half Arab children in Non-Muslim homes, in a Non-Muslim country. Which is actually a country very biased AGAINST ISLAM, are simply in some sort of dream world.

There's no comparison what so ever! In MENA the "village" collectively raises the children, who are raised to believe that conforming (at least outwardly for the sake of appearances) and the honor of the family is Always more important that "self-fulfillment" ... here this very liberal and disconnected society (no village at ALL) encourages "individual freedom and self-expression" not conformity, no matter what their father wants or demands...

Thinking that only OTHER people have husbands that don't have (Western style) parenting skills to raise their American born kids while trying to raise them to be Muslim in this country, which is difficult even when BOTH parents are Muslim, is extremely naive and yes - shows that they are likely in DENIAL...

I can't count the number of despondent MENA fathers I've met at the weekend school who talk about giving up on trying to raise their Americanized children in this country, because they are afraid their children will call the police if they hit them... and that's the only thing they can think of to do when shouting and threatening has failed. They LONG to take their children (sullen defiant 15 year old boys or rebellious and mouthy 13 year old girls in particular) back HOME to raise...

And I know MORE THAN A FEW women who have taken their kids back to MENA to raise at the request of the father. Back home they are not individually responsible for raising their own children.. they have HUGE extended families and neighbors who are like family (and willing to smack someone else's kid if need be) that collectively instill the value of conformity on the youth. And father's play a very MINOR role in child rearing if ANY... (more like the "good old days" when your Mom would say "if you don't stop that I'm going to tell your Father when he gets home!!!) MENA Men don't grow up expecting to actually PARENT their children. They are given the role of PROVIDING for them... Women do the raising...

I know your husband is different... And I'm full of So I promise not to say anything else that isn't exactly what everyone wants to hear...

And I have yet to see a even ONE immigrant MENA father put his child in a "timeout" or talk calmly to them when they are misbehaving... however I have seen them smacked and whacked, shouted at and slapped. Or totally ignored and allowed to destroy everything in sight...

[ya falaha! 0]

KH, I agree with you to some degree ie the MENA father's treatment/raising of children. However, it seems to be more consistant to MENA men from Egypt and east of Egypt. Not saying that Maghrebi men can't be strict also but they seem to be, for the most part, more lenient. I think that may be a reason why chemaatah disagrees to an extent. Anyhoo, like yourself, I've been married more than once and both times to Arab/Muslim men. Like you, after spending several years in the community (15 yrs) I can't really relate to American men. My ex is from Yemen. They're known for being more strict religiously and culturally. My ex is a great, hands-on dad but he is harsher to my boys than I'd like at times. My older boy (13) is at the age where he's a bit rebellious (is big into rock/metal music, has a bit of a potty mouth and loves the ladies). Rebellious in his father's eyes, normal in mine. My ex doesn't ever speak of sending our boy "back home", he realizes that this is *his* son and it's up to him to raise the boy not pawn him off. He disciplines him by taking away privileges, grounding him from seeing friends for a specific time frame, etc. Normal disciplinary actions that American folks utilize. However, he will fly off the handle about things that perhaps wouldn't seem like a big deal to others. That being said, he's not abusive by any means. Now my sons' cousin (nearly 15, half American also) has been sent to Yemen more than once for several months because his father couldn't be bothered.