Sarah and the Death Panels

[HAL 9000 96]

Just like teh gheys want to impose their will upon all heterosexuals ey?

[tmma 467]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

If you are in a coma or a persistent vegetative state - you aren't in control of whether or not someone pulls the plug on you.

You sure about that? I didn't know that. I thought with my advance directive and living will-which is very specific-it was all taken care of.

No, it isn't. You have the living will to indicate your wishes to next of kin and for them to act on your behalf. I don't think that hospitals are legally obliged to honor it however - and there are State Laws that take the decision out of your hands anyway.

Sec. 166.038. PROCEDURE WHEN DECLARANT IS INCOMPETENT OR INCAPABLE OF COMMUNICATION. (a) This section applies when an adult qualified patient has executed or issued a directive and is incompetent or otherwise mentally or physically incapable of communication.

( B) If the adult qualified patient has designated a person to make a treatment decision as authorized by Section 166.032©, the attending physician and the designated person may make a treatment decision in accordance with the declarant's directions.

© If the adult qualified patient has not designated a person to make a treatment decision, the attending physician shall comply with the directive unless the physician believes that the directive does not reflect the patient's present desire.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/...0.000166.00.htm

waiting on phone call back from atty, but I did find this. ^

There's also these:

http://www.answers.com/topic/living-will

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futile_care_law

Seems that you're dependent on the applicable State Laws - living wills drafted in one state not being recognised in others (great if you have an accident on vacation), also the definitions vary - so life-prolonging treatment might include a feeding tube (as was the case the in the Terry Schiavo case).

hmmm..ok. But have to say, I'd rather be dependant on the law than wiki or answer.com.

I'll see what my atty says. When I had it all drawn up- I do remember him saying that the eventuality if I was out of state was taken care of...hmmm.

[Peikko 1,575]

Palin's arguments are sensationlist and dishonest. They also ignore two basic facts:

1) Care is rationed under the current, private insurance system - if the insurance company thinks your treatment is medically unnecessary, experimental or if your condition was deemed pre-existing, they won't pay for it.

2) There are already State Laws (like the Futile Care Laws in Texas) which put the decision about whether to provide treatments to people in comas or persistent vegetative states (and yes, people like her beloved son Trig) solely into the hands of hospital administrators - regardless of the wishes of the patient or the patient's family.

Let me address your points.

1. Care is rationed under "SOME" private insurance, in the free market you get what you pay for. If you want oil change insurance you can get that too.

When Govco takes over, there is no hope of having any options except what THEY ALLOW.

In the rough and tumble free market, what is affordable today might not tomorrow and what is too expensive today, might not be later.

2.Such care limiting laws might exist in a few states but if we don't like those limits we can move to a state which better matches our wants and needs. In fact this is how states learn what works, by comparing to other states.

When the fed takes over..... there is no escape! We are stuck with their programs and must accept "it is the best we can do".

What part of, "in every universal health care under the sun there is always a private option available if you are not happy with what the government provides" don't you get? So, even if, worst case scenario, the Dems were talking about Universal health care, (which they are not) it still would not mean you would be forced into the government option.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[tmma 467]

Just like teh gheys want to impose their will upon all heterosexuals ey?

huh?

[HAL 9000 96]

Just like teh gheys want to impose their will upon all heterosexuals ey?

huh?

response to Dannologic's usual slippery slope.

[Danno 1,228]

Except Danno, that you don't know the full details of the reform plans (noone here does) - so surely wild speculation about the horrors of Federal Government isn't very useful.

I've wondered if that was part of the strat, *let several plans emerge* thereby "owning" none.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

Really? Those that had their policies cancelled or rescinded when they needed them thought that too. They took it as fact that they were in control of their health care until the insurance company injected a dose of ugly reality into their ailing lives.

We have government run health insurance in the US already and it's working a heck of a lot better, it's a heck of a lot more reliable and a heck of a lot more efficient than the fractured private insurance system that has helped tremendously in making health care the most expensive in the developed world with the least overall return. It's unsustainable. Plain and simple.

You don't want change? Or you just one of them America haterz that want to see the President fail at any cost?

Im far from a hater.

Until I see a laid out plan of what and how things would affect me Im not for blind change. Just because people dont like his policies does not mean they want him to fail. What your saying is the way liberals think. Just because he does not get all his policies or ideas passed does not mean he fails.

Do you think if he fails to pass healthcare he is a failure? Thats not much of an attitude. Really thats silly to think that way

I don't see it that way but the GOP does.

What I would like to see is a move towards a single payer system as that is the most efficient way of organizing health insurance. Absent of that, I'd like to see an alternative to the private insurance industry made available to anyone that wants to subscribe to it along with a requirement for the private insurance industry to let anyone that wants to subscribe to their plans regardless of pre-existing conditions. I've read some interesting pieces on co-ops as well and would not be opposed to going down that route seeing that the scheme does seem to work well for folks out west.

There are many proposals on the table and what I would like to see is an honest debate taking place rather than one of the major political parties practicing nothing but scare mongering and destructive mis-information campaigns to achieve their publicly stated goal of ensuring that nothing gets done.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

Really? Those that had their policies cancelled or rescinded when they needed them thought that too. They took it as fact that they were in control of their health care until the insurance company injected a dose of ugly reality into their ailing lives.

We have government run health insurance in the US already and it's working a heck of a lot better, it's a heck of a lot more reliable and a heck of a lot more efficient than the fractured private insurance system that has helped tremendously in making health care the most expensive in the developed world with the least overall return. It's unsustainable. Plain and simple.

You don't want change? Or you just one of them America haterz that want to see the President fail at any cost?

Im far from a hater.

Until I see a laid out plan of what and how things would affect me Im not for blind change. Just because people dont like his policies does not mean they want him to fail. What your saying is the way liberals think. Just because he does not get all his policies or ideas passed does not mean he fails.

Do you think if he fails to pass healthcare he is a failure? Thats not much of an attitude. Really thats silly to think that way

I don't see it that way but the GOP does.

What I would like to see is a move towards a single payer system as that is the most efficient way of organizing health insurance. Absent of that, I'd like to see an alternative to the private insurance industry made available to anyone that wants to subscribe to it along with a requirement for the private insurance industry to let anyone that wants to subscribe to their plans regardless of pre-existing conditions. I've read some interesting pieces on co-ops as well and would not be opposed to going down that route seeing that the scheme does seem to work well for folks out west.

There are many proposals on the table and what I would like to see is an honest debate taking place rather than one of the major political parties practicing nothing but scare mongering and destructive mis-information campaigns to achieve their publicly stated goal of ensuring that nothing gets done.

Its not just the GOP! So why you arguin for somthing that isnt there?

[Danno 1,228]

Just like teh gheys want to impose their will upon all heterosexuals ey?

huh?

response to Dannologic's usual slippery slope.

I think more and more people realize Homos are in fact forcing their way on society.

Need to see the programs that have for school children again?

http://massresistance.com/media/video/brainwashing.html

Here ya go, if you need more let me know.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Danno, you do realize when these folks quit reponding to your posts you have accomplished a great deed?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

Really? Those that had their policies cancelled or rescinded when they needed them thought that too. They took it as fact that they were in control of their health care until the insurance company injected a dose of ugly reality into their ailing lives.

We have government run health insurance in the US already and it's working a heck of a lot better, it's a heck of a lot more reliable and a heck of a lot more efficient than the fractured private insurance system that has helped tremendously in making health care the most expensive in the developed world with the least overall return. It's unsustainable. Plain and simple.

You don't want change? Or you just one of them America haterz that want to see the President fail at any cost?

Im far from a hater.

Until I see a laid out plan of what and how things would affect me Im not for blind change. Just because people dont like his policies does not mean they want him to fail. What your saying is the way liberals think. Just because he does not get all his policies or ideas passed does not mean he fails.

Do you think if he fails to pass healthcare he is a failure? Thats not much of an attitude. Really thats silly to think that way

I don't see it that way but the GOP does.

What I would like to see is a move towards a single payer system as that is the most efficient way of organizing health insurance. Absent of that, I'd like to see an alternative to the private insurance industry made available to anyone that wants to subscribe to it along with a requirement for the private insurance industry to let anyone that wants to subscribe to their plans regardless of pre-existing conditions. I've read some interesting pieces on co-ops as well and would not be opposed to going down that route seeing that the scheme does seem to work well for folks out west.

There are many proposals on the table and what I would like to see is an honest debate taking place rather than one of the major political parties practicing nothing but scare mongering and destructive mis-information campaigns to achieve their publicly stated goal of ensuring that nothing gets done.

Its not just the GOP! So why you arguin for somthing that isnt there?

But it is. Not that you would be able to see it but the scare mongering and mis-information campaign is one that the GOP drives all on it's own.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Just like teh gheys want to impose their will upon all heterosexuals ey?

huh?

response to Dannologic's usual slippery slope.

I think more and more people realize Homos are in fact forcing their way on society.

Quick, Danno, grab some duct tape and seal yer rear end. They're coming for you.

[Danno 1,228]

Just like teh gheys want to impose their will upon all heterosexuals ey?

huh?

response to Dannologic's usual slippery slope.

I think more and more people realize Homos are in fact forcing their way on society.

Quick, Danno, grab some duct tape and seal yer rear end. They're coming for you.

Don't assume everyone shares your sex fantasy my friend.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That was a pretty ridiculous thing to say Danno.

Forcing their way on society - what a load of utter shite.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Just like teh gheys want to impose their will upon all heterosexuals ey?

huh?

response to Dannologic's usual slippery slope.

I think more and more people realize Homos are in fact forcing their way on society.

Quick, Danno, grab some duct tape and seal yer rear end. They're coming for you.

Don't assume everyone shares your sex fantasy my friend.

Well, how about you don't assume that anyone is out there to force themselves or their ways on you or those around you? That's the argument you were looking to make. I just went to show you just how fcuking ridiculous that line of argument really is.