Certificates - how many and when ?

[Captain Oates 911]

Just doing my homework well in advance and I thought I would ask for confirmation on certificates.

Do I have it right that a sort of 'initial' certificate is isuued at the ceremony - this is used to apply for a passport - the passport comes back in a week or two and this initial certificate arrives 3 days or so later

Then a really nice and framable certificate arrives 3 weeks after that

So the citizen ends up with two certificates ?

Have i got this right - I was just trying to patch a few posts together to figure it out

thanks

Alan

Edited August 19, 2009 by saywhat

[krysia 0]

No, there is only one certificate

You get the real one right on the ceremony

then you have to give the real one away with the passport application

and it comes back in mail in a few weeks, than you can frame it if you want

[NickD 202]

You only get one, looks like an ordinary piece of paper roughly 7 by 6.6 inches, has your name, DOB, height, martial status, don't know why it has that, country of origin, place and date where it was issued, and a spot to glue on the photo you supplied. Just barely glued on my wife's photo, but used a USCIS stamp half on her photo other half on the paper. Hers had the then current director of the USCIS signature stamped on it with one of those ink stamps. You have to write your signature on it exactly the way it is printed, so you want to make sure you do that, we did that at home.

Does have some fancy engraving on the border, but not near the quality of printing you would find on a dollar bill, this is what you get for around 700 bucks, was far more impressed with a certificate I received for free from the American Legion wanting me to join so I can get 10% off my motel bills.

Does have red printing on it, unlawful to make copies, but the USCIS highly recommend you make copies in case you lose yours, they want that, two more photos, a form and around 400 bucks to replace it. Looks like they whipped these out like crazy with a laser printed for the data exclusive to you from a data base. Wife's height was not properly centered, in the printing as well as everyone else that received one, but they said that is okay. At least everything else was spelled correctly.

In regards to framing it, might as well frame four hundred dollar bills, hers is in a protect plastic cover and in our fire proof safe, unlike your green card, no longer have to carry it. Was only the DOS that wanted the original, they must trust SS agents more, because when I went in, they just made of a copy of it and gave me back the original. Nobody else wanted to see it. Would be just like a USC carrying their birth certificate wherever they go.

But after you get it, no longer need reminders on the refrigerator door to send in two forms if you move, can walk out your door without your green card, don't have to store any evidence proving you are married, don't have to keep track of your trips, and when you walk out to the mailbox, don't pray that you finally received something from the USCIS to let you know your case is being processed. A lot of stress is removed from your life.

Stress is a highly emotional disturbance caused by having no control over a situation.

Edited August 19, 2009 by NickD

[NickD 202]

You only get one, looks like an ordinary piece of paper roughly 7 by 6.6 inches, has your name, DOB, height, martial status, don't know why it has that, country of origin, place and date where it was issued, and a spot to glue on the photo you supplied. Just barely glued on my wife's photo, but used a USCIS stamp half on her photo other half on the paper. Hers had the then current director of the USCIS signature stamped on it with one of those ink stamps. You have to write your signature on it exactly the way it is printed, so you want to make sure you do that, we did that at home.

Does have some fancy engraving on the border, but not near the quality of printing you would find on a dollar bill, this is what you get for around 700 bucks, was far more impressed with a certificate I received for free from the American Legion wanting me to join so I can get 10% off my motel bills.

Does have red printing on it, unlawful to make copies, but the USCIS highly recommend you make copies in case you lose yours, they want that, two more photos, a form and around 400 bucks to replace it. Looks like they whipped these out like crazy with a laser printed for the data exclusive to you from a data base. Wife's height was not properly centered, in the printing as well as everyone else that received one, but they said that is okay. At least everything else was spelled correctly.

In regards to framing it, might as well frame four hundred dollar bills, hers is in a protect plastic cover and in our fire proof safe, unlike your green card, no longer have to carry it. Was only the DOS that wanted the original, they must trust SS agents more, because when I went in, they just made of a copy of it and gave me back the original. Nobody else wanted to see it. Would be just like a USC carrying their birth certificate wherever they go.

But after you get it, no longer need reminders on the refrigerator door to send in two forms if you move, can walk out your door without your green card, don't have to store any evidence proving you are married, don't have to keep track of your trips, and when you walk out to the mailbox, don't pray that you finally received something from the USCIS to let you know your case is being processed. A lot of stress is removed from your life.

Stress is a highly emotional disturbance caused by having no control over a situation.

Major correction, opened a reduced size copy on my computer by mistake. Her certificate is still in the safe, actual size is 10" wide by 8" high.

[onuche 0]

You only get one, looks like an ordinary piece of paper roughly 7 by 6.6 inches, has your name, DOB, height, martial status, don't know why it has that, country of origin, place and date where it was issued, and a spot to glue on the photo you supplied. Just barely glued on my wife's photo, but used a USCIS stamp half on her photo other half on the paper. Hers had the then current director of the USCIS signature stamped on it with one of those ink stamps. You have to write your signature on it exactly the way it is printed, so you want to make sure you do that, we did that at home.

Does have some fancy engraving on the border, but not near the quality of printing you would find on a dollar bill, this is what you get for around 700 bucks, was far more impressed with a certificate I received for free from the American Legion wanting me to join so I can get 10% off my motel bills.

Does have red printing on it, unlawful to make copies, but the USCIS highly recommend you make copies in case you lose yours, they want that, two more photos, a form and around 400 bucks to replace it. Looks like they whipped these out like crazy with a laser printed for the data exclusive to you from a data base. Wife's height was not properly centered, in the printing as well as everyone else that received one, but they said that is okay. At least everything else was spelled correctly.

In regards to framing it, might as well frame four hundred dollar bills, hers is in a protect plastic cover and in our fire proof safe, unlike your green card, no longer have to carry it. Was only the DOS that wanted the original, they must trust SS agents more, because when I went in, they just made of a copy of it and gave me back the original. Nobody else wanted to see it. Would be just like a USC carrying their birth certificate wherever they go.

But after you get it, no longer need reminders on the refrigerator door to send in two forms if you move, can walk out your door without your green card, don't have to store any evidence proving you are married, don't have to keep track of your trips, and when you walk out to the mailbox, don't pray that you finally received something from the USCIS to let you know your case is being processed. A lot of stress is removed from your life.

Stress is a highly emotional disturbance caused by having no control over a situation.

I cant stop laughing, good one!!!!!!!!!!!.

[Captain Oates 911]

Excellent stuff Nick

That's awful though that I have to send in the original with the passport and there is no other copy

I reckon the ban on copying is for the purpose of misrepresenting - I have a billion scan copies of my GC and driver's license and they are not supposed to be copied either. I reckon a 'copy' of a driver's license would be something plastic with lots of holograms on etc - something that 'looked like' a driver's license. A scruffy scan on walmart paper isn't really a copy - it's more of a reminder or a sketch and couldn't be used to misrepresent it as a driver's license (getting my defence ready for court)

Anyway I reckon the nearest USCIS office to me is Yakima Washington - so I will go to Kinkos and get a photo copy before I mail it from the Union Gap post office a couple of miles away. Remember Gary Puckett and the Union Gap - he was living there when he formed the group - 'young girl' was a number 1 in the UK for ages but not so in the U.S. 'Lady Willpower ' was big too

Jeez if I don't get the passport, I will be stranded in the US as it would be a major pain to try and go to the UK and back without it. The woman with the tungsten steel corsets at the BMI office in Manchester would turn me away for sure when she saw my US visas and no green card. She refused me to fly once before, but it was Sunday and she couldn't get the the supervisor on the cell phone - so she had to relent and let me fly anyway (after 30 minutes in the little room) . At Chicago they waived me through with a smile. US/UK Immigration is nothing compared to the BMI lady

Yes the thought of a divorce from the USCIS is mega - still havent got over the GC trauma nearly 2 years ago . My pal has been here 12 years on GC and just saying 'INS' makes him twitch and go white - I have seen it a few times. They put him through more torment than most

Ok well I reckon a fireproof safe sunk into a concrete waterproof coffin under the house will be needed - although I reckon the passport will take over as the lead document for all but Social Security

many thanks for clearing this up

Edited August 19, 2009 by saywhat

[NickD 202]

Excellent stuff Nick

That's awful though that I have to send in the original with the passport and there is no other copy

I reckon the ban on copying is for the purpose of misrepresenting - I have a billion scan copies of my GC and driver's license and they are not supposed to be copied either. I reckon a 'copy' of a driver's license would be something plastic with lots of holograms on etc - something that 'looked like' a driver's license. A scruffy scan on walmart paper isn't really a copy - it's more of a reminder or a sketch and couldn't be used to misrepresent it as a driver's license (getting my defence ready for court)

Anyway I reckon the nearest USCIS office to me is Yakima Washington - so I will go to Kinkos and get a photo copy before I mail it from the Union Gap post office a couple of miles away. Remember Gary Puckett and the Union Gap - he was living there when he formed the group - 'young girl' was a number 1 in the UK for ages but not so in the U.S. 'Lady Willpower ' was big too

Jeez if I don't get the passport, I will be stranded in the US as it would be a major pain to try and go to the UK and back without it. The woman with the tungsten steel corsets at the BMI office in Manchester would turn me away for sure when she saw my US visas and no green card. She refused me to fly once before, but it was Sunday and she couldn't get the the supervisor on the cell phone - so she had to relent and let me fly anyway (after 30 minutes in the little room) . At Chicago they waived me through with a smile. US/UK Immigration is nothing compared to the BMI lady

Yes the thought of a divorce from the USCIS is mega - still havent got over the GC trauma nearly 2 years ago . My pal has been here 12 years on GC and just saying 'INS' makes him twitch and go white - I have seen it a few times. They put him through more torment than most

Ok well I reckon a fireproof safe sunk into a concrete waterproof coffin under the house will be needed - although I reckon the passport will take over as the lead document for all but Social Security

many thanks for clearing this up

SS is happy with a US passport for proof of USC, seems like SS trusts either the USCIS or the DOS, and the DOS does trust the USCIS. Can't say the same about the CIA trusting the FBI, but the NCIS is the best as they don't trust either the CIA nor the FBI. DEA doesn't trust anybody as appears does your BMI lady. We also seem to have problems with the POE not trusting us, but not quite as bad as the USCIS distrusting us. DVM didn't trust us with an expired green card and a one year extension notice, but do trust now my wife's word that she is a USC. VR also trusted my wife's word that she is a USC.

But in this USCIS process where I needed a birth certificate, I don't trust myself, I think the copy I got from the State of Illinios is a phony. Sure looks like a phony, I am not sure anymore if I am me. But I am not the only one that doesn't trust myself, the USCIS doesn't trust their own green cards, they make you bring all the evidence you brought in again to get it for USC. Neither do they trust the State of Wisconsin with much of the same evidence we had to bring in to get that marriage license, bu they do trust the State of Wisconsin if you bring in a state issued driver's license for identification purposes, there again they don't trust themselves with their own green card they issued to you.

USCIS never took my invitation for them to come and spend a week with us, our bed is even large enough for one or two of them if they are not too fat. But they do trust a piece of paper from my electric company when I called them to add my wife's name to the bill. Made the USCIS happy, but not my wife. She doesn't want to be liable for that bill! Suppose now that it's over, could call them again and have her name removed, but on second thought, will call them and have my name removed. Heck, I don't want to be liable for it either. But that doesn't make any difference, state says as a married couple, we are both liable, but don't tell that to the USCIS when they want to see your home deed or property tax bill, they want to see both names.

[AusCal 3]

Yes, it is illegal to make unauthorised copies, however, it is not illegal to make a copy for your own personal use (this is considered "authorised" use). I don't have a link to this, but, I do know I have seen a link to this on a previous thread.

[Captain Oates 911]

what is a copy after all ?

It has to do with counterfeiting surely - if I take a scanned black and white copy of my green card on walmart paper then it's simply not possible to use it to deceive anyone - except someone from somewhere remote like Wasilla

If I manufactured a copy using holograms and plastic so that it was identical to the real thing, and then kept it 'for my own use', I reckon that would much more culpable.

Anyway I would ask for judge Sotomajor and she would let me off and ask if I could make some more

Nice thing is they can't deport you for it once you are a USC

[NickD 202]

"IT IS PUNISHABLE BY U.S. LAW TO COPY,

PRINT, OR PHOTOGRAPH THIS CERTIFICATE,

WITHOUT LAWFUL AUTHORITY."

Is what you find on your certificate.

Copying and pasting that statement into google leads to over 280 sites only pertaining to the USC certificate where only that statement can be found. Guess I already broke the law when the person handing the certificate to my wife posed with the certificate in plain view of my hi res camera, got a nice photo of that. But I didn't get a chance to read that statement, so punish me. Good question as to exactly what this punishment is, in reading several immigration law firm responses, they don't know either, but could be, no second helpings on desert. Or maybe I have to stand in the corner for ten seconds.

USCIS certainly wants copies of it, prime example is you are a naturalized spouse of a green card holder applying with the N-400, or applying for a relative with an I-130. From the N-565 form if you lost your copy, "My certificate is/was lost, stolen or destroyed (attach a copy of the certificate if you

have one). Explain when, where and how." Those that didn't make a copy have major problems. Doesn't the USCIS have a copy of it? No problem in losing an SS card or a driver's license, just go in and get another, losing your certificate is major.

Some attorney sites admit to not being able to find the USCIS legal definition of this statement, but speculate it could mean making a copy and changing the name and photograph for false identification. Certainly a weak spot in the USCIS. Fee is $380.00 and posted processing time is five months.

[MsAnn 0]

"IT IS PUNISHABLE BY U.S. LAW TO COPY,

PRINT, OR PHOTOGRAPH THIS CERTIFICATE,

WITHOUT LAWFUL AUTHORITY."

The officer over our oath ceremony told us we can safely ignore the warning and encouraged us to make personal photocopies of the certificate . I think the statement is only so they can go after people who are making forgeries, etc.

[Captain Oates 911]

"IT IS PUNISHABLE BY U.S. LAW TO COPY,

PRINT, OR PHOTOGRAPH THIS CERTIFICATE,

WITHOUT LAWFUL AUTHORITY."

The officer over our oath ceremony told us we can safely ignore the warning and encouraged us to make personal photocopies of the certificate . I think the statement is only so they can go after people who are making forgeries, etc.

They will just use it if they want to - if John Lennon had copies of a document with this prohibition, they would have used it to deport him.

Many laws are just wheeled out when they want to 'get' someone - like Spitzer - they were talking about doing him for transporting a prostitute across State lines.

Obviously that law was aimed at mobsters and human traffickers - but they could use it to 'get' someone they wanted to destroy. They held off this time but they use these laws in an inappropriate way as levers to gain compliance

[lucyrich 20]

FYI, the legal source of that prohibition on making copies comes from 18 USC 1426, available in its entirety here, among other places:

http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/1426.html

An excerpt follows:

Whoever, without lawful authority, prints, photographs, makes or executes any print or impression in the likeness of a certificate of arrival, declaration of intention to become a citizen, or certificate of naturalization or citizenship, or any part thereof -

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 25 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this title)), 20 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate a drug trafficking crime (as defined in section 929(a) of this title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or second such offense, if the offense was not committed to facilitate such an act of international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15 years (in the case of any other offense), or both.

Ten year prison term for the first offense, if it has no complications due to terrorism or drug trafficking.

But they'd have to get a jury to convict you first. And they don't clearly define what they mean by "lawful authority".

I wouldn't worry at all about a non-fraudulent copy for a legitimate purpose such as sending it to the USCIS in support of another petition (where they specifically ASK you to send them a copy).

[NickD 202]

Was looking for that law, congratulations for finding it.

"

Sec. 1426. Reproduction of naturalization or citizenship papers

(a) Whoever falsely makes, forges, alters or counterfeits any

oath, notice, affidavit, certificate of arrival, declaration of

intention, certificate or documentary evidence of naturalization or

citizenship or any order, record, signature, paper or proceeding or

any copy thereof, required or authorized by any law relating to

naturalization or citizenship or registry of aliens; or

(B) Whoever utters, sells, disposes of or uses as true or

genuine, any false, forged, altered, antedated or counterfeited

oath, notice, affidavit, certificate of arrival, declaration of

intention to become a citizen, certificate or documentary evidence

of naturalization or citizenship, or any order, record, signature

or other instrument, paper or proceeding required or authorized by

any law relating to naturalization or citizenship or registry of

aliens, or any copy thereof, knowing the same to be false, forged,

altered, antedated or counterfeited; or

© Whoever, with intent unlawfully to use the same, possesses

any false, forged, altered, antedated or counterfeited certificate

of arrival, declaration of intention to become a citizen,

certificate or documentary evidence of naturalization or

citizenship purporting to have been issued under any law of the

United States, or copy thereof, knowing the same to be false,

forged, altered, antedated or counterfeited; or

(d) Whoever, without lawful authority, engraves or possesses,

sells or brings into the United States any plate in the likeness or

similitude of any plate designed, for the printing of a declaration

of intention, or certificate or documentary evidence of

naturalization or citizenship; or

(e) Whoever, without lawful authority, brings into the United

States any document printed therefrom; or

Whoever, without lawful authority, possesses any blank

certificate of arrival, blank declaration of intention or blank

certificate of naturalization or citizenship provided by the

Immigration and Naturalization Service, with intent unlawfully to

use the same; or

(g) Whoever, with intent unlawfully to use the same, possesses a

distinctive paper adopted by the proper officer or agency of the

United States for the printing or engraving of a declaration of

intention to become a citizen, or certificate of naturalization or

certificate of citizenship; or

(h) Whoever, without lawful authority, prints, photographs, makes

or executes any print or impression in the likeness of a

certificate of arrival, declaration of intention to become a

citizen, or certificate of naturalization or citizenship, or any

part thereof -

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 25

years (if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of

international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this

title)), 20 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate a

drug trafficking crime (as defined in section 929(a) of this

title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or second such offense,

if the offense was not committed to facilitate such an act of

international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15 years

(in the case of any other offense), or both.

AMENDMENTS

2002 - Pub. L. 107-273 substituted "to facilitate" for "to

facility" in last par.

1996 - Pub. L. 104-208 substituted "imprisoned not more than 25

years (if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of

international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this

title)), 20 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate a

drug trafficking crime (as defined in section 929(a) of this

title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or second such offense,

if the offense was not committed to facility such an act of

international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15 years

(in the case of any other offense)" for "imprisoned not more than

five years" in last par.

1994 - Pub. L. 103-322 substituted "fined under this title" for

"fined not more than $5,000" in last par.

EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1996 AMENDMENT

Amendment by Pub. L. 104-208 applicable with respect to offenses

occurring on or after Sept. 30, 1996, see section 211© of Pub. L.

104-208, set out as a note under section 1028 of this title.

ABOLITION OF IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE AND TRANSFER OF

FUNCTIONS

For abolition of Immigration and Naturalization Service, transfer

of functions, and treatment of related references, see note set out

under section 1551 of Title 8, Aliens and Nationality. Last modified: April 12, 2006"

I am reading subsections a-h as attempts to commit fraud, forgeries, sell, false entry into the USA, for either acts of false entry or even to enter into the USA for acts of terrorism. The subsections are all separated by "ors" meaning any of these false attempts. Nothing is said of making backup unmodified copies, which would be primarily for government use, who else would want to see it?

[Captain Oates 911]

I am reading subsections a-h as attempts to commit fraud, forgeries, sell, false entry into the USA, for either acts of false entry or even to enter into the USA for acts of terrorism. The subsections are all separated by "ors" meaning any of these false attempts. Nothing is said of making backup unmodified copies, which would be primarily for government use, who else would want to see it?

Yeah they are too busy wondering if President O is an earthly humanoid or at least a Kenyan Mau-Mau terrorist plant.

Hope he has his birth certificate in a fire proof safe or he could be the first President to claim political asylum here during his term.

In 10 years time we will all be chipped at birth like pedigree pets - so it wont be necessary

The Russian Mafia will be selling their services to dig the chips out and frig them and put em back in again