Public option is dead. It's official.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The people you seek to enslave or extort care.

I'm not enslaving or extorting anyone.

But you want to.

You either want to force service providers provide a service at no cost (slavery) or you want to force people to pay those service providers for services provided to individuals other than themselves (extortion).

Says who?

Says you.

Not once have you said you want people to pay in full for services they consume.

You say they have a 'right' to services. That means you want to extort taxpayers and/or enslave service providers.

I want to ** their mothers too - and eat the livers of their children for good measure.

Well, that's quite a tangent.

Back to the topic, though.

Do you deny that you think people have a right to care regardless of their ability to pay?

If you believe that, and we all know you do, it is clear that EITHER health care service providers have to work for free or for less than cost OR someone else has to be forced to pay them for their services.

There's no way around it. It's either slavery or extortion.

Personally, I prefer the extortion through a mandatory payroll deduction route.

[natty bumppo 297]

then just grab hold of some good ol 460V, 3 Ø and give that chip a boost to the moon ...

no chip .. no problem

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

no chip .. no problem

no chip, you get to go to jail for free and get AIDS from Bubba.

[natty bumppo 297]

no chip .. no problem

no chip, you get to go to jail for free and get AIDS from Bubba.

a chip is easy ... there will be a black market ... or simply nab one off some drunk college student

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The people you seek to enslave or extort care.

I'm not enslaving or extorting anyone.

But you want to.

You either want to force service providers provide a service at no cost (slavery) or you want to force people to pay those service providers for services provided to individuals other than themselves (extortion).

Says who?

Says you.

Not once have you said you want people to pay in full for services they consume.

You say they have a 'right' to services. That means you want to extort taxpayers and/or enslave service providers.

I want to ** their mothers too - and eat the livers of their children for good measure.

Well, that's quite a tangent.

Back to the topic, though.

Do you deny that you think people have a right to care regardless of their ability to pay?

If you believe that, and we all know you do, it is clear that EITHER health care service providers have to work for free or for less than cost OR someone else has to be forced to pay them for their services.

There's no way around it. It's either slavery or extortion.

Personally, I prefer the extortion through a mandatory payroll deduction route.

I don't understand how this distinction is all that different from what goes on now.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I just dont think socialized medicare health care(with this reform bill the way it is that is the direction it will go) is the way to go about it

Which reform bill calls for socialized health care? What portion of which bill proposes to socialize medical services? Which provision of which bill makes doctors, hospitals and other medical service providers part of the government?

You ignored the part I put in bold, I said thats what direction it will go.

I think smoke said it perfectly -

none call for it. any that contain a public option will put it on the fast track towards socialized heathcare...private companies can NOT compete with government w/o being subsidized.

So, you want to speculate and then use funky terminology (such as socialized health care instead of the more descriptive and accurate tem single payer system) to raise certain fears a little rather than having a rational debate on the legislation actually being discussed.

Oh, what subsidies are Fed-Ex and UPS receiving?

[Peikko 1,575]

Chip and sin - health care for all. Sin at will, we don't pay your bill

[SMOKE 1,426]

I just dont think socialized medicare health care(with this reform bill the way it is that is the direction it will go) is the way to go about it

Which reform bill calls for socialized health care? What portion of which bill proposes to socialize medical services? Which provision of which bill makes doctors, hospitals and other medical service providers part of the government?

You ignored the part I put in bold, I said thats what direction it will go.

I think smoke said it perfectly -

none call for it. any that contain a public option will put it on the fast track towards socialized heathcare...private companies can NOT compete with government w/o being subsidized.

So, you want to speculate and then use funky terminology (such as socialized health care instead of the more descriptive and accurate tem single payer system) to raise certain fears a little rather than having a rational debate on the legislation actually being discussed.

Oh, what subsidies are Fed-Ex and UPS receiving?

that was me not looking.

thats another obama duh moment. fed ex & ups don't compete w/ usps in anything other than package delivery. there are laws in place to prevent fed ex & ups from handling the 'letter' mail....btw:the usps is one of fed ex's best customers in international shipping.

[natty bumppo 297]

I just dont think socialized medicare health care(with this reform bill the way it is that is the direction it will go) is the way to go about it

Which reform bill calls for socialized health care? What portion of which bill proposes to socialize medical services? Which provision of which bill makes doctors, hospitals and other medical service providers part of the government?

You ignored the part I put in bold, I said thats what direction it will go.

I think smoke said it perfectly -

none call for it. any that contain a public option will put it on the fast track towards socialized heathcare...private companies can NOT compete with government w/o being subsidized.

So, you want to speculate and then use funky terminology (such as socialized health care instead of the more descriptive and accurate tem single payer system) to raise certain fears a little rather than having a rational debate on the legislation actually being discussed.

Oh, what subsidies are Fed-Ex and UPS receiving?

that was me not looking.

thats another obama duh moment. fed ex & ups don't compete w/ usps in anything other than package delivery. there are laws in place to prevent fed ex & ups from handling the 'letter' mail....btw:the usps is one of fed ex's best customers in international shipping.

does USPS have the burden of paying taxes? What about FedEx? DHL?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I just dont think socialized medicare health care(with this reform bill the way it is that is the direction it will go) is the way to go about it

Which reform bill calls for socialized health care? What portion of which bill proposes to socialize medical services? Which provision of which bill makes doctors, hospitals and other medical service providers part of the government?

You ignored the part I put in bold, I said thats what direction it will go.

I think smoke said it perfectly -

none call for it. any that contain a public option will put it on the fast track towards socialized heathcare...private companies can NOT compete with government w/o being subsidized.

So, you want to speculate and then use funky terminology (such as socialized health care instead of the more descriptive and accurate tem single payer system) to raise certain fears a little rather than having a rational debate on the legislation actually being discussed.

Oh, what subsidies are Fed-Ex and UPS receiving?

that was me not looking.

thats another obama duh moment. fed ex & ups don't compete w/ usps in anything other than package delivery. there are laws in place to prevent fed ex & ups from handling the 'letter' mail....btw:the usps is one of fed ex's best customers in international shipping.

Whether on the entire product offering or only parts of it, Fed-Ex and UPS are effectively competing with the USPS and do so successfully without any subsidies. If they can do that, why would anyone believe that health insurance companies cannot?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The people you seek to enslave or extort care.

I'm not enslaving or extorting anyone.

But you want to.

You either want to force service providers provide a service at no cost (slavery) or you want to force people to pay those service providers for services provided to individuals other than themselves (extortion).

Says who?

Says you.

Not once have you said you want people to pay in full for services they consume.

You say they have a 'right' to services. That means you want to extort taxpayers and/or enslave service providers.

I want to ** their mothers too - and eat the livers of their children for good measure.

Well, that's quite a tangent.

Back to the topic, though.

Do you deny that you think people have a right to care regardless of their ability to pay?

If you believe that, and we all know you do, it is clear that EITHER health care service providers have to work for free or for less than cost OR someone else has to be forced to pay them for their services.

There's no way around it. It's either slavery or extortion.

Personally, I prefer the extortion through a mandatory payroll deduction route.

I don't understand how this distinction is all that different from what goes on now.

Taxation is extortion. We tax today, so we already extort. Taxing more is just doing it more.

As for enslavement, we don't do it today. Most providers around me have prominent signs in their office saying they do not accept Medicare patients. Providers have the right today to not accept Medicare patients. Obamacare will no longer give providers the right to reject public-plan participants. If the public-plan "negotiates" below-cost rates (which Medicare does today for many services) then they'll have no choice. That would be slavery.

[natty bumppo 297]

I just dont think socialized medicare health care(with this reform bill the way it is that is the direction it will go) is the way to go about it

Which reform bill calls for socialized health care? What portion of which bill proposes to socialize medical services? Which provision of which bill makes doctors, hospitals and other medical service providers part of the government?

You ignored the part I put in bold, I said thats what direction it will go.

I think smoke said it perfectly -

none call for it. any that contain a public option will put it on the fast track towards socialized heathcare...private companies can NOT compete with government w/o being subsidized.

So, you want to speculate and then use funky terminology (such as socialized health care instead of the more descriptive and accurate tem single payer system) to raise certain fears a little rather than having a rational debate on the legislation actually being discussed.

Oh, what subsidies are Fed-Ex and UPS receiving?

that was me not looking.

thats another obama duh moment. fed ex & ups don't compete w/ usps in anything other than package delivery. there are laws in place to prevent fed ex & ups from handling the 'letter' mail....btw:the usps is one of fed ex's best customers in international shipping.

Whether on the entire product offering or only parts of it, Fed-Ex and UPS are effectively competing with the USPS and do so successfully without any subsidies. If they can do that, why would anyone believe that health insurance companies cannot?

USPS draws from public funds to not be competitive ... appears to be always in the red.

how about closing USPS ... saving the $$$$ ... and relying on private companies that already have a proven record for delivery into all areas of the US.

[Danno 1,228]

Well surely its only polite to give people some benefit of the doubt, rather than write them off as leeches or parasites right off the bat.

Painting them that way only has one purpose - to demonise people and to suggest that there are no ways a person can't be poor or fall on hard times without it being entirely their fault, and as a result - deserved.

Doesn't seem in tune with the Christian traditions this country supposedly exemplifies.

Sure wish your type would make up your mind.... "Are we a Christian Nation or not"?

Seems you jump back n forth depending on how it suits your argument.

[Danno 1,228]

This comes down to the fact that the Right Wingers don't give a sh!t about the poor in this country. If you're poor and unable to afford health insurance premiums for you and your family, it's just because you're too goddam lazy.

I do give a sh!t about the poor(not all of them) and I often find that people are poor because they consistently make bad decisions. I dont think that giving those people gov. help like health care is going to change there behavior but only encourage it, sometimes paying for things is the best medicine. What about the unfortunate that truly needs help, I care about them I just dont think socialized medicare(with this reform bill the way it is that is the direction it will go) is the way to go about it, we need to bring cost down and keep the gov. out of it.

Some on the right may act like all poor people are lazy but you have agree that some on the left act like all poor people are noble citizens that cant get a break. We need to find that happy medium.

Nope. It's time to cull the herd. We need more predators. More wolves and bears and lions to pick off the weak and infirm. It's natures way, right? All all, evolution is a fact, right? Natural selection is not only a good idea, it's the law!

By being merciful, aren't we falling into the warped thinking of the extreme Christian Right? You know, "If you did it for one of the least of my children, you did it for me." How dare they teach religion in schools!

Amen Bro, They must simply be "Darwin deniers".

They say they Believe but in practice, they fight it at every step...... even spending huge amounts of effort to save whales which beach themselves. (Not talking about wal-mart shoppers)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well surely its only polite to give people some benefit of the doubt, rather than write them off as leeches or parasites right off the bat.

Painting them that way only has one purpose - to demonise people and to suggest that there are no ways a person can't be poor or fall on hard times without it being entirely their fault, and as a result - deserved.

Doesn't seem in tune with the Christian traditions this country supposedly exemplifies.

Sure wish your type would make up your mind.... "Are we a Christian Nation or not"?

Seems you jump back n forth depending on how it suits your argument.

I wish you'd actually rebut the argument presented, rather than seize upon the one-liners for your own purposes.

But let me clarify for you - its the religious elements on the conservative right where the moral outrage about things like abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, creationism etc originates. In each of those examples - and indeed as here with healthcare, none of those positions seem particularly in line with the Christian values that those people (supposedly) cherish.

Its all finger-pointing and demonising. Indeed that seems to be synonymous with "your type".

Edited August 17, 2009 by Private Pike