Wife got citizenship, announced she wanted divorce the next day?

[Captain Oates 911]

Do we see any lessening of demand for east Europeans to head for the USA via marriage is the question and is it wrong for the move to be a part of the attraction ?

I would say no to both questions so long as the spouse doesn't actually secretly despise their American sponsor and is using them - and only events/time will show the outside world whether that is in play

- Each case should be seen separately and i think it is right now by the USCIS - so the world and Americans should not assume it's always only about money and a better life style, because it isn't

Would I marry Joan Rivers to get out of a Taliban prison ? Yes !

I say again...there's no evidence that supports the notion that FSU women are "flowing" into the US for even partially economic reasons. As Ekee and others keep pointing out, Eastern Europe and Russia have changed a LOT since you were there. Yes of course there's going to be the odd green card scam, but there's nothing to indicate money is a primary or even secondary motive. You keep steering the conversation back to this point, which is really nothing more than your opinion based probably on watching too many movies. What's your agenda?

I have no agenda other than to make a statement and hear others and get educated through discussion

I am pleased to hear that Odessa has improved enormously - your statement that it is has is valid I am sure, and so is mine that it wasn't nice not too long ago - and it's interesting to learn about what is happening

As far as the GC thing is concerned, I am actually on the side of immigrants and I don't think there is much real fraud.

I keep bringing it back to that subject so I can reinforce that view

[mox 298]

As far as the GC thing is concerned, I am actually on the side of immigrants and I don't think there is much real fraud.

I keep bringing it back to that subject so I can reinforce that view

Uh-huh. You're careful to avoid coming right out and saying it, but the round-about ####### of "well she might love you but her desire to actually be with you is motivated by the fact that she wants to get out of her sh1tty country" says it all:

I have been to Odessa (THE Odessa), and if I were a resident there I would be prepared to marry Elton to get out. Don't know why they don't ditch the spouse after the green card and do naturalization on their own after 5 years. I am sure there are genuine Ukrainian brides but boy they have an incentive

Back to the subject - for residents of somewhere like that to be given the chance of living in the West, it would 'add to' the attraction of the person who got them out. Love has many inputs and gratitude for getting them out of there is a legitimate part of love so long as it isnt the sole reason or a temporary 'using' of the person. If part of loving somone is because they saved you from a horrible life and made you feel safe and secure for the first time, I see that as entirely genuine - more meaningful than loving them for their perky chubbies and sensuous hands and love of animals or whatever we love people for

So there is a line as to what is genuine, but if having a nice new life is simply a 'part' and not the whole of it, then that's genuine in my book. I reckon the GI brides of world war 2 wanted out of the poverty of bombed out London and it was a factor in the attraction to their American husbands

We need to get real about all this and not be so lofty about Hollywood style love which is more about vaseline smeared camera lenses than the real world where people marry to escape loneliness and sexual frustration and Odessa and a lot of things - and genuinely think the world of the person who saved them and genuinely 'love' them for it

I may be out of date in that people were prepared to be shot in their attempts to cross the Berlin wall etc to freedom and I believe the West is very attractive to Easterners. I worked with many Poles and none of them wanted to go back. They just wanted to marry an Italian or Irish catholic and stay in the UK

Ok the political thing is different now but 600,000 Poles just rushed to live in the UK.

So I am not on board with the idea that Eastern Europeans don't find the idea of moving to the West to be attractive

The last American to enjoy living in Russia was Lee Harvey Oswald and that didn't last

I wonder how many East European/American marriages result in the couple living in Eastern Europe

There has to be a reason for that. It's nearly always an East European woman and an American man

Many British men marry American women but how many American women marry Vietnamese men or Ukrainian men or men from Moscow ? I am sure there are some but not many

I am not saying anything is wrong with that by that way - it's just the way it is and for a reason (a number of reasons) and that's fine by me. Had I not been married I might well have taken that route myself in my parner search. I actually took my American bride to the UK to live and she had a UK green card and a job there - but she didnt like it and so here we are in the U.S. and it's fine by me.

I don't see any of this stuff bordering on immigration fraud and I think the conditions in many countries are an added incentive, and I don't see a problem in admitting that either to ourselves or the USCIS

If some 70 year old toothless lonely gimmer gets a beautiful 29 year old bride from a horrible steaming sweat shop in a dangerous dirty poverty stricken city and they are both deliriously happy with what they both got out of it and value each other enormously, then I say good luck to them and well done. It's 'the market ' at work and all Americans and Margaret Thatcher are in favour of that

I think it's great that people have options and possibilities to escape their situations whatever or wherever they are and 'love' per the USCIS field manual is indefinable anyway

Let's hope Odessa gets more and more attractive so that all the illegal immigrants who are swamping the UK/Holland/Spain etc, decide to target Odessa instead

OK the question is - has this economic improvement stopped the flow of beautiful lady Muscovites/Ukrainians to the USA and if their motive is partly economic, is that unlawful. I dont think it is so long as it's a part and not all of it - as evidenced by them staying with their husband after the GC or Citizenship. Part of the motive is fine. It's a heck of a lot tougher for them than me and I know a lot go back.

Do we see any lessening of demand for east Europeans to head for the USA via marriage is the question and is it wrong for the move to be a part of the attraction ?

I would say no to both questions so long as the spouse doesn't actually secretly despise their American sponsor and is using them - and only events/time will show the outside world whether that is in play

- Each case should be seen separately and i think it is right now by the USCIS - so the world and Americans should not assume it's always only about money and a better life style, because it isn't

I'm on a first name basis with a lot of former and present members of this forum, and I can tell you that each and every one of their wives agonized over the decision to leave their friends, families, and lives to come live with their husband. Some couldn't make the transition, and had to go back home to their ultra-shitty 3rd world lives. Your views are at least 10 years out of date, uninformed, and quite frankly pretty offensive to those of us and our wives who have been through this process and understand that "living in the US" goes roughly dead last on the list of reasons to come to the US.

[Captain Oates 911]

I'm on a first name basis with a lot of former and present members of this forum, and I can tell you that each and every one of their wives agonized over the decision to leave their friends, families, and lives to come live with their husband. Some couldn't make the transition, and had to go back home to their ultra-shitty 3rd world lives. Your views are at least 10 years out of date, uninformed, and quite frankly pretty offensive to those of us and our wives who have been through this process and understand that "living in the US" goes roughly dead last on the list of reasons to come to the US.

Hey whoa just hold on - there is no reason to get all offended.

The thread is about immigration fraud basically and all I have done is make 2 points

1: Odessa wasn't nice (in my view) 10 years ago

2 I believe nearly all immigration is genuine and fraud is minimal

That is what I believe and there is nothing there to get upset about

You should be getting upset with people who think that immigration from poorer countries is based on fraud much of the time

peace ? I am your side !

[Captain Oates 911]

Uh-huh. You're careful to avoid coming right out and saying it, but the round-about ####### of "well she might love you but her desire to actually be with you is motivated by the fact that she wants to get out of her sh1tty country" says it all:

That's not fair - you are ascribing words to me that I never said and I never implied and I don't believe

You shouldn't ascribe words to people that they never said or ascribe sentiments to people that they never felt or expressed

The most I said (I don't imply) is that moving to a more economically developed country is 'the icing on the cake ' for some and that I don't see ANYTHING wrong with that

Now that doesn't apply to your circumstances and that's fine - so please don't see it as pointed at you.

But I ask you to to allow that it might be true for some people from some countries and again I say there is nothing wrong with it

There are no implications or dark agendas here so there is no need to be suspicious. I write openly and plainly and if there was anything else to impart then I would say it

Again, don't be upset because there is nothing to be upset about and I am on the side of these immigrants whether they come from Europe or not

Can you accept that ?

Edited August 21, 2009 by saywhat

[mox 298]

Your point seems to be that you don't consider it immigration fraud for a FSU woman to figure living in the US (or the corollary, getting the hell out of her country) as an important part of the equation when marrying an American citizen. And yes, you are right, this is not immigration fraud. But by making that point, you keep re-enforcing this notion that FSU women are trying to get out of their horrible countries, and one way they're doing it is by marrying Americans. In one post you called it a "flow" of women.

So MY point is that yes, I agree that having an economic motive is not immigration fraud, but it's a non-starter because there is generally no economic component to begin with, at least in my experience and the experience of my FSU-married friends, which I think is a much more valid data point than your own pontifications.

It's like saying that it's not immigration fraud to have a "easier to get access to rare Pokemon cards" component to the decision. While probably also true, if you were to make this argument then you would be de facto implying that FSU women are coming to the US to collect rare Pokemon cards. So my objection is not that you are saying these women are fraudulently immigrating, my objection is that you seem to think many (most?) of these women are basing their decisions largely on a desire to come to the US.

I can accept that this mostly non-existent "financial icing on the cake" argument does not violate immigration laws. Can you accept that there's no evidence to support your notion that FSU women are "flowing" into the US with some kind of financial component in mind?

[Captain Oates 911]

Your point seems to be that you don't consider it immigration fraud for a FSU woman to figure living in the US (or the corollary, getting the hell out of her country) as an important part of the equation when marrying an American citizen. And yes, you are right, this is not immigration fraud. But by making that point, you keep re-enforcing this notion that FSU women are trying to get out of their horrible countries, and one way they're doing it is by marrying Americans. In one post you called it a "flow" of women.

So MY point is that yes, I agree that having an economic motive is not immigration fraud, but it's a non-starter because there is generally no economic component to begin with, at least in my experience and the experience of my FSU-married friends, which I think is a much more valid data point than your own pontifications.

It's like saying that it's not immigration fraud to have a "easier to get access to rare Pokemon cards" component to the decision. While probably also true, if you were to make this argument then you would be de facto implying that FSU women are coming to the US to collect rare Pokemon cards. So my objection is not that you are saying these women are fraudulently immigrating, my objection is that you seem to think many (most?) of these women are basing their decisions largely on a desire to come to the US.

I can accept that this mostly non-existent "financial icing on the cake" argument does not violate immigration laws. Can you accept that there's no evidence to support your notion that FSU women are "flowing" into the US with some kind of financial component in mind?

Let me take back the word 'flow' as I have no idea of the numbers and 'flow' implies large numbers so I did imply there.

I don't know about whether the component of 'cake icing' is ever present or not but if it is then it's ok by me

I found the enormous 'newness' and 'difference' of marrying an American to be the 'icing in the cake' but that is all it was.

My wife was the same about being with a European and being shown around Europe and living and working in the UK. I am sure it has opened up her life in the same way as living in the US has opened up mine

I never used the words 'many' or 'most' - I reckon it might be 'some'.

If it is 'some' or 'many' or 'all' then that just makes them the same as me and my wife and I reckon that's ok

I wouldn't be having the great experiences I am having if I had married Dolly from Yorkshire - so yes it IS the icing on the cake for me (us)

Economically I am worse off but I don't care. It sounds like we are closer to frauds than you two (but we aren't frauds)

Are we on the same wavelength yet ?

Alan

[mox 298]

Well, I'm not really sure if I really did read more than what you were trying to say, or if you're backing away from your initial point. Either way, I'll concede. If you're saying that you're happily married to someone who loves you for who you are and not because of where you live, then we are indeed on the same wavelength inasmuch as we both seem to share similar circumstances.

[Captain Oates 911]

Well, I'm not really sure if I really did read more than what you were trying to say, or if you're backing away from your initial point. Either way, I'll concede. If you're saying that you're happily married to someone who loves you for who you are and not because of where you live, then we are indeed on the same wavelength inasmuch as we both seem to share similar circumstances.

I can assure you I don't back away - just the opposite , mealy mouthed and fawning is not me - I state my opinions all the way popular or not - and when I compliment it is never flattery

I would be similarly on guard for inappropriate comments if my wife was from an economically less wealthy country so I sure don't blame you for that and your spirited defence is totally natural and commendable even if there was nothing to defend against as it turns out. Nothing wrong with vigilance and there are plenty of rednecks out there to guard against

Love is impossible to define as there are a million inputs and anyway some of them are more ridiculous in the light of day than immigration benefits. I remember a 'many times married' film star saying 'I once married a pair of legs' and it's amazing what pushes people's buttons. My mother used to say she was never happy with my dad's short legs but the rest made up for it and they were married 60 years

As long as you both want to be together 24/7 and it's not temporary, and the 'where' is secondary, then that's as close a definition as I can think of

Good, glad we are understanding each other - it's nice - Alan

[akdiver 3]

The thread is about immigration fraud basically

As this thread's OP, I have to disagree entirely.

And FWIW, my wife would have preferred I be the one to relocate, rather than her. Of course, being the selfish ####### that I am, I had an economic motive for her to come here, and for me to stay here - we could both make more money this way. I hope that's not immigration fraud.

Edited August 21, 2009 by akdiver

[Captain Oates 911]

The thread is about immigration fraud basically

As this thread's OP, I have to disagree entirely.

Sounds alright to me

I wasnt bothered either way and in the end we lived in the UK then the US and then we will probably live in the Uk again for a while if she retires early (health cover)

That isnt immigration fraud into the UK either I reckon

Edited August 21, 2009 by saywhat

[akdiver 3]

The thread is about immigration fraud basically

As this thread's OP, I have to disagree entirely.

Please get us back on track and say what the discussion should have been about

Sex, drugs, and rock & roll - not necessarily in that order (:

[Captain Oates 911]

The thread is about immigration fraud basically

As this thread's OP, I have to disagree entirely.

Please get us back on track and say what the discussion should have been about

Sex, drugs, and rock & roll - not necessarily in that order (:

Well it is Friday - don't get caught with one of em and be in tune with one of em and keep it at home with one of em

please re - arrange to make sense

[visaveteran 1]

As far as the GC thing is concerned, I am actually on the side of immigrants and I don't think there is much real fraud.

I keep bringing it back to that subject so I can reinforce that view

Uh-huh. You're careful to avoid coming right out and saying it, but the round-about ####### of "well she might love you but her desire to actually be with you is motivated by the fact that she wants to get out of her sh1tty country" says it all:

I have been to Odessa (THE Odessa), and if I were a resident there I would be prepared to marry Elton to get out. Don't know why they don't ditch the spouse after the green card and do naturalization on their own after 5 years. I am sure there are genuine Ukrainian brides but boy they have an incentive

Back to the subject - for residents of somewhere like that to be given the chance of living in the West, it would 'add to' the attraction of the person who got them out. Love has many inputs and gratitude for getting them out of there is a legitimate part of love so long as it isnt the sole reason or a temporary 'using' of the person. If part of loving somone is because they saved you from a horrible life and made you feel safe and secure for the first time, I see that as entirely genuine - more meaningful than loving them for their perky chubbies and sensuous hands and love of animals or whatever we love people for

So there is a line as to what is genuine, but if having a nice new life is simply a 'part' and not the whole of it, then that's genuine in my book. I reckon the GI brides of world war 2 wanted out of the poverty of bombed out London and it was a factor in the attraction to their American husbands

We need to get real about all this and not be so lofty about Hollywood style love which is more about vaseline smeared camera lenses than the real world where people marry to escape loneliness and sexual frustration and Odessa and a lot of things - and genuinely think the world of the person who saved them and genuinely 'love' them for it

I may be out of date in that people were prepared to be shot in their attempts to cross the Berlin wall etc to freedom and I believe the West is very attractive to Easterners. I worked with many Poles and none of them wanted to go back. They just wanted to marry an Italian or Irish catholic and stay in the UK

Ok the political thing is different now but 600,000 Poles just rushed to live in the UK.

So I am not on board with the idea that Eastern Europeans don't find the idea of moving to the West to be attractive

The last American to enjoy living in Russia was Lee Harvey Oswald and that didn't last

I wonder how many East European/American marriages result in the couple living in Eastern Europe

There has to be a reason for that. It's nearly always an East European woman and an American man

Many British men marry American women but how many American women marry Vietnamese men or Ukrainian men or men from Moscow ? I am sure there are some but not many

I am not saying anything is wrong with that by that way - it's just the way it is and for a reason (a number of reasons) and that's fine by me. Had I not been married I might well have taken that route myself in my parner search. I actually took my American bride to the UK to live and she had a UK green card and a job there - but she didnt like it and so here we are in the U.S. and it's fine by me.

I don't see any of this stuff bordering on immigration fraud and I think the conditions in many countries are an added incentive, and I don't see a problem in admitting that either to ourselves or the USCIS

If some 70 year old toothless lonely gimmer gets a beautiful 29 year old bride from a horrible steaming sweat shop in a dangerous dirty poverty stricken city and they are both deliriously happy with what they both got out of it and value each other enormously, then I say good luck to them and well done. It's 'the market ' at work and all Americans and Margaret Thatcher are in favour of that

I think it's great that people have options and possibilities to escape their situations whatever or wherever they are and 'love' per the USCIS field manual is indefinable anyway

Let's hope Odessa gets more and more attractive so that all the illegal immigrants who are swamping the UK/Holland/Spain etc, decide to target Odessa instead

OK the question is - has this economic improvement stopped the flow of beautiful lady Muscovites/Ukrainians to the USA and if their motive is partly economic, is that unlawful. I dont think it is so long as it's a part and not all of it - as evidenced by them staying with their husband after the GC or Citizenship. Part of the motive is fine. It's a heck of a lot tougher for them than me and I know a lot go back.

Do we see any lessening of demand for east Europeans to head for the USA via marriage is the question and is it wrong for the move to be a part of the attraction ?

I would say no to both questions so long as the spouse doesn't actually secretly despise their American sponsor and is using them - and only events/time will show the outside world whether that is in play

- Each case should be seen separately and i think it is right now by the USCIS - so the world and Americans should not assume it's always only about money and a better life style, because it isn't

I'm on a first name basis with a lot of former and present members of this forum, and I can tell you that each and every one of their wives agonized over the decision to leave their friends, families, and lives to come live with their husband. Some couldn't make the transition, and had to go back home to their ultra-shitty 3rd world lives. Your views are at least 10 years out of date, uninformed, and quite frankly pretty offensive to those of us and our wives who have been through this process and understand that "living in the US" goes roughly dead last on the list of reasons to come to the US.

The population of your first name basis friends accounts for a handful of accounts, probably coming from the American husbands or fiancees which makes it second-hand. So what does a few anecdotal comments mean in the search for truth? Nothing.

Most American men on here have experience with one or two women...rarely three or more. Not enough to claim any valid understanding of the sociological issues within Russia and the FSU. In addition, most men visit Russia for one or two weeks maybe two times a year. None of this constitutes being an expert.

All I see in this phenomena is forum men wanting to act like resident experts and know-it-alls with only a small amount of contact with the country. And much of that comes from Moscow and St. Petersburg...both I would not call typical Russian cities. Recent comments also don't account for age break-outs of data regarding immigration patterns. Nor does it account for religious groups...Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim and atheist. And many other factors not addressed here.

It's easy to be the big man on the forum if no fact checks can be made as to your authenticity.

I think the value of any VJ forum is relaying personal experiences around someone's own visa journey...something you continue to keep a secret or make jokes about. Obviously some take your feedback seriously. I, on the other hand, take everything you say with a grain of salt...as you have no credibility or history. Just a lot of judgments and "data" backed-up by nothing in the form of personal sharing with accompanying details.

[mox 298]

I think the value of any VJ forum is relaying personal experiences around someone's own visa journey...something you continue to keep a secret or make jokes about. Obviously some take your feedback seriously. I, on the other hand, take everything you say with a grain of salt...as you have no credibility or history. Just a lot of judgments and "data" backed-up by nothing in the form of personal sharing with accompanying details.

The thing that's so endearing about you vv, is that you constantly interpret me exactly 180 degrees out from what I actually said. I'll explain, for all the good it'll do: when I address an issue such as the idea that FSU women are flocking to the US because their lives are so horrible (and just to be clear, I understand now that this was not Alan's point), I take pains to say things like "there is no evidence to show that this is true." I also mention my own experience, and the experience of other couples I know personally, because that really is the only data available to me. You are of course welcome to interject your own personal experiences, and if your own personal experiences are different, then please feel free to share. Because I don't have a problem hearing that somebody's personal experience was that their wife, or their friend's wife, came to the US to get away from their shitty life. But when it's a sweeping generalization, then I expect it to be backed in reality.

Anyway, take me with salt or not at all, I won't lose sleep either way. Nobody's here trying to build a fan base. We're just all folk blathering. If you want to challenge my blather with your own blather, well it's a free country and most of the time it's a free forum.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I think the value of any VJ forum is relaying personal experiences around someone's own visa journey...something you continue to keep a secret or make jokes about. Obviously some take your feedback seriously. I, on the other hand, take everything you say with a grain of salt...as you have no credibility or history. Just a lot of judgments and "data" backed-up by nothing in the form of personal sharing with accompanying details.

The thing that's so endearing about you vv, is that you constantly interpret me exactly 180 degrees out from what I actually said. I'll explain, for all the good it'll do: when I address an issue such as the idea that FSU women are flocking to the US because their lives are so horrible (and just to be clear, I understand now that this was not Alan's point), I take pains to say things like "there is no evidence to show that this is true." I also mention my own experience, and the experience of other couples I know personally, because that really is the only data available to me. You are of course welcome to interject your own personal experiences, and if your own personal experiences are different, then please feel free to share. Because I don't have a problem hearing that somebody's personal experience was that their wife, or their friend's wife, came to the US to get away from their shitty life. But when it's a sweeping generalization, then I expect it to be backed in reality.

Anyway, take me with salt or not at all, I won't lose sleep either way. Nobody's here trying to build a fan base. We're just all folk blathering. If you want to challenge my blather with your own blather, well it's a free country and most of the time it's a free forum.

Wow! You are so much more literate here, than we are in the OT forum. I'm impressed.