SPIN METER: $3 billion buys not-so-green vehicles

[Ban Hammer 13,625]

WASHINGTON – Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, the nation's top car salesman in recent weeks, has cited the Obama administration's best-seller list of mostly smaller, fuel-saving cars like the Ford Focus to describe the success of the Cash for Clunkers rebate program.

But what LaHood and other administration officials usually don't mention is that some trucks and sport-utility vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon, like the Ford F-150 truck and one version of the Cadillac SRX Crossover, also are being purchased with the new government subsidies. Both are bulky vehicles weighing more than 6,000 pounds when loaded that boast at least 248 horsepower.

Just how many consumers used the federal rebates to buy these larger, not-so-green vehicles is unclear. The Obama administration has declined so far to release detailed records of purchases under the program being compiled by the Transportation Department, listing every clunker deal requesting rebates. The Associated Press requested the data July 31.

The Transportation Department distributes regular summaries of sales from the clunkers program and has used the electronic sales information from dealers to bolster arguments that Americans are dumping gas guzzlers for gas savers. But its failure to release detailed records means the public can't verify those claims.

"Today almost 200,000 new fuel-efficient automobiles averaging 25 miles per gallon are on the road instead of gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs," LaHood wrote on his official blog just before Congress voted to spend $2 billion more for the government rebates last week.

Even the Top 10 list of mostly smaller, fuel-efficient cars that LaHood has cited as evidence of the program's success is being questioned. A different Top 10 sales list produced by Edmunds.com, an auto consumer Web site, shows fewer small cars and more large vehicles like trucks and utility vehicles make up the best sellers.

A list of eligible vehicles has been available to the public on the clunker program's Web site, http://www.cars.gov, White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

Edmunds.com determined the list of top sellers and trade-ins under the program from weekly sales data collected directly from dealers, company CEO Jeremy Anwyl said.

Both lists of top sellers include, for example, the fuel-saving Toyota Corolla, and the clunkers program by its definition is encouraging consumers to dump older, less fuel-efficient cars for new, more efficient models.

But the program, now expanded to $3 billion and offering rebates of up to $4,500, isn't limited to the best gas savers on the market. And that's good news to Beny Ledesma, general sales manager at Williamson Cadillac-Hummer in Miami.

The dealership has sold three 2009 Cadillac SRXs — the six-cylinder engine model — through the clunkers program, he said, and is finishing paperwork on two more. Ledesma hopes to sell the other 14 at the dealership, along with some of the Hummer H3Ts on the lot that are eligible for clunker rebates.

Both vehicles get about 18 mpg, considerably less than the 25.3 mpg average that LaHood has attributed to new cars purchased under the clunker program.

"The Cash for Clunkers is definitely generating traffic for Cadillac and Hummer," Ledesma said.

It's not just Honda Civics and Toyota Priuses, two cars that get as much as 29 mpg and 50 mpg respectively, that people can buy with the $3 billion in government rebates. They can also buy versions of the 2009 Lexus RX 350 or 2009 Lincoln MKX, both pricey five-passenger utility vehicles that get about 19 mpg and are capable of towing a small boat.

Buyers must have trade-ins that qualify for such deals — comparable vehicle types with at least 2 mpg less in fuel efficiency than the new purchase. And the new vehicle can't cost more than $45,000.

Even a high-end 2009 BMW X3 crossover utility vehicle, priced at just under $40,000, counts as a gas saver eligible under the government program, with 19 mpg.

Psaki said the administration is reviewing the AP's request for the clunkers transaction data that would show all cars purchased and traded under the program, and their fuel efficiency ratings. She said new vehicles purchased are raising the average fuel economy of cars and trucks on the nation's highways and "getting the dirtiest and most polluting vehicles off the road."

Dealers have submitted requests for rebates on 292,447 vehicles sold, at a cost of about $1.2 billion to the government, according to sales data summarized by Transportation Department officials.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that less fuel-efficient vehicles are being purchased with clunker rebates, said Lena Pons of the watchdog group Public Citizen. Congress agreed to loosen fuel efficiency requirements under the program when it passed the initial legislation earlier this year.

Pons said Public Citizen also is seeking sales data from the program to determine whether it has led to drivers replacing larger trucks with smaller cars, or whether vehicles purchased under the program are only marginally better in fuel efficiency.

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[mawilson 2,133]

But what LaHood and other administration officials usually don't mention is that some trucks and sport-utility vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon, like the Ford F-150 truck and one version of the Cadillac SRX Crossover, also are being purchased with the new government subsidies.

Well, to qualify for the $4,500 credit, the new vehicle's fuel economy value has to be

at least 5 miles per gallon higher than the trade-in.

So... if they bought an 18 MPG guzzler, the trade-in must have been 13 MPG or worse.

[HAL 9000 96]

Yep... lets spin it had the requirement would've been for green vehicles-only:

"Oh no... them libruls telling us what to buy."

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Oh for gods sake Charles, are you trying to send steve over the edge? Those dam ice meltin, polar bear killin, ocean raisin bastages!

[ready4ONE 5,400]

But what LaHood and other administration officials usually don't mention is that some trucks and sport-utility vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon, like the Ford F-150 truck and one version of the Cadillac SRX Crossover, also are being purchased with the new government subsidies.

Well, to qualify for the $4,500 credit, the new vehicle's fuel economy value has to be

at least 5 miles per gallon higher than the trade-in.

So... if they bought an 18 MPG guzzler, the trade-in must have been 13 MPG or worse.

I am not certain many car dealers will get paid for some of the deals they believe they made under the program. I know that the 1999 Dodge Caravan was in the top ten traded in vehicles early on, and it averages an official 19 mpg, thus does not qualify for the trade.

Me thinks there will be many disappointed dealerships down the road.

To be eligible for a $3,500 incentive, buyers must trade in cars that get 18 miles per gallon or less. For a $3,500 rebate, the replacement must achieve at least 22 mpg. For the full $4,500 rebate, the new car must get at least 10 mpg more than the old one (and at least 22 mpg as well).

For pickups, SUVs, and large light-duty trucks, the mileage requirements would be similar but lower. Incentives will also apply to heavy-duty work trucks if they were built before 2001.

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/102046...r-clunkers-bill

[Danno 1,228]

This is the hight of "green selfishness" if you ask me.

They are destroying all those cars traded in, many in perfect condition.

At the same time, we have many citizens in challenging circumstances where a means of transportation would unlock doors of opportunity.

I'm thinking of Single mothers whose cars are worn-out, construction workers.. with no construction work.

You people who would love to go to the local collage but no way to get there, mean while Obama's plan is destroying cars but the thousand... by the tens of thousands in the very towns and cites where needy folks are at.

Why? The only persons who insisted on this waste are the "Greens", they don't want to wait until these vehicals purge themselves of the road from age, no, no. They want them scrapped now and to hell with the blessing these cars could bring to so many folks in this Obama/ Bush economy.

It's just wrong.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I kept my clunker. Who want's car payments? Mine is paid for, runs like a top, and for all it's faults, has never stranded me anywhere in roughly 100k miles of use, when purchased used at nearly 80k on the odometer.

[NickD 203]

Was going to argue this post until I read all the changes at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/, they sure relaxed the requirements. Wife an I looked at all the new stuff, only thing I saw was garbage, making vehicles just like aluminum pop cans, use it for a bit, then toss it in the garbage can. If I want to buy a bunch of Chinese electronic garbage, can go to Wal-Mart, same #######, but a lot cheaper.

[HAL 9000 96]

You can now order a car that may not be available due to popular demand.

Car recycling is also benefiting from this, but I wonder why manufacturers can't use existing junkyard material to begin with.

[Danno 1,228]

You can now order a car that may not be available due to popular demand.

Car recycling is also benefiting from this, but I wonder why manufacturers can't use existing junkyard material to begin with.

MY guess is there is not much benefit as the scrap metal market has had the bottom dropped out.

Just a few years ago the market was so hot, I knew of people scouring the woods and back yards to take old cars, washing machines, you name it, in for cash. I imagine this bit of capitalism did more to clean out natural areas of ####### than any project could have.

But those days or over... at least for now.

NOt sure whats going on with the cardboard/ paper market but that was pretty hot too, I knew a few people who collect it, I never saw how it was worth it. I used to get rid of a few van loads of cardboard a week in my

business but I don't have storage room to mess around with it.

[NickD 203]

You can now order a car that may not be available due to popular demand.

Car recycling is also benefiting from this, but I wonder why manufacturers can't use existing junkyard material to begin with.

MY guess is there is not much benefit as the scrap metal market has had the bottom dropped out.

Just a few years ago the market was so hot, I knew of people scouring the woods and back yards to take old cars, washing machines, you name it, in for cash. I imagine this bit of capitalism did more to clean out natural areas of ####### than any project could have.

But those days or over... at least for now.

NOt sure whats going on with the cardboard/ paper market but that was pretty hot too, I knew a few people who collect it, I never saw how it was worth it. I used to get rid of a few van loads of cardboard a week in my

business but I don't have storage room to mess around with it.

Only good Penn and Teller BS program was on the BS with recycling, most of their other programs were BS on BS. Today, repair parts are positively insane in prices, plus the corporations are loading us with ####### like all these bubble packs. Most of those packs cost more than was in them. But all done for the convenience of the stores. Could buy either a fuel pump or carburetor rebuilt for a couple of bucks and make it like new again, today a 450 buck fuel pump is throwaway, yep, that is what Toyota wants for a fuel pump, as is a throwaway 85 buck fuel injector. These are just two examples of the thousands of parts use in an automobile.

Another place they get you is in special tools, already have 150 bucks invested in GM AC compressor clutch hub pullers, but all obsolete, still need a puller/pusher, but they changed the design of the hub so you need to buy yet another puller/pusher. Then they want $5,600 for a GM Tech II scanner where previous models were obsoleted whenever the EPA gets a bug up their butt.

I have seen my own designs that we had to produce for a buck thirty nine on dealers shelves for 156 bucks, can't really blame the dealer, blame that damned IRS, inventory with a corporation tax of 35% is profit to them, and then the b@stards want to value it at retail value, even though you haven't sold it yet to make that profit. This more than anything drives the price of replacement parts. At the dealers, dealing with hundreds or thousands of dollars, at the manufacturing level, dealing with a fraction of a cent.

Then you spend more time screwing around with the EPA than being innovative, the number of regulations is unbelievable and most of them aren't even written in English, so corporations require more attorneys than engineers. We really have a f_cked up government. In all reality, a new vehicle today with inflation, should sell for less than what a new vehicle cost to produce in the 70's before we had all these regulations. Government giving back 4,500 bucks is nothing compared to how they have been screwing us for years.

Care to comment on this? Can't even deduct the cost of these damned things to get you back and forth to work and without that vehicle, you wouldn't have any work.

[HAL 9000 96]

You can now order a car that may not be available due to popular demand.

Car recycling is also benefiting from this, but I wonder why manufacturers can't use existing junkyard material to begin with.

MY guess is there is not much benefit as the scrap metal market has had the bottom dropped out.

Just a few years ago the market was so hot, I knew of people scouring the woods and back yards to take old cars, washing machines, you name it, in for cash. I imagine this bit of capitalism did more to clean out natural areas of ####### than any project could have.

But those days or over... at least for now.

NOt sure whats going on with the cardboard/ paper market but that was pretty hot too, I knew a few people who collect it, I never saw how it was worth it. I used to get rid of a few van loads of cardboard a week in my

business but I don't have storage room to mess around with it.

It is curious. The other day on WGN they interviewed a local junker who said business was really picking up, and it coincided with Cash for Clunkers. With all that scrap metal available I can only guess that many manufacturers are afraid their getting weakened material or something like this. Nothing a little electromechanics can fix in a melting cauldron.

As for your cardboard- it also gets recycled. The more post consumer, the more cost effective it becomes.