Why is 'Socialism' such a dirty word in the USA?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I really don't understand the ingrained suspicion of government. I thought "we" were the government - so in effect what's being said is that people don't trust themselves?

No we dont trust the government, we know power corrupts.

Which begs the question again - why bother to vote?

It makes it very easy for special interest groups and lobbyists to control the government, this type of nonsensical circular reasoning. You elect your officials on a political platform/agenda/manifesto. You expect the elected officials to attempt to implement the manifesto, you hold them account so that they do - you vote them out if they don't. That's the way it's meant to work. The checks and balances are not to prevent government from working, it's to prevent there being a concentration of power in one branch of government and to ensure no one person, or group of persons can inflict policies that have not got an electoral mandate

Confused much are most of the posters, and the US public in general it would seem.

Right - but why come election time do people doggedly defend the two party system?

I seem to remember a few people here who were only luke-warm about McCain, come election time turned into the most ardent supporters of his you could possibly imagine.

Clearly more time is spend on the presentation of issues, rather than issues themselves - if that weren't the case, Obama likely wouldn't have got in with such a specious election slogan. "Change" who was he kidding!?

I guess what I don't understand is why people continue to play the two party game. It seems in many ways counterproductive - but obviously a lot harder than actually getting personally involved in the political process.

[My Name Is Nobody 3]

Power corrupts the government but apparently not large corporations or the rich.

This is your weakness. You cant worry about the large corps and rich in a capitalistic society. You are free to distance yourself from them. You dont have to do business with them. If they are corrupt move on to one that isn't.

You cant flee the goverment. When they become corrupt you are in trouble.

I still havn't figured out why the left in this country is so worried about big evil corps and the rich?

[_Simpson_ 250]

One of the biggest reasons many people don't want a NHS is we have seen how incompetent the government is and know better than to put them in charge of our health care.

How do you account for medicare then?

How do you account for social security?

Ok it seems this thread has turned into a "let b1tch about how bad America is" thread. Seems to happen alot here at VJ, although the original poster led it in that direction with the spend money on war and not health comment. We also have the Aussie telling us how great his country is, how cute.

One of the biggest reasons many people don't want a NHS is we have seen how incompetent the government is and know better than to put them in charge of our health care.

There is such a thing as constructive criticism you know.

You call that constructive criticism?

Some of it is.

Its not a matter of substance but rather a matter of style.

Exactly, and constant complaining by the usual suspects would hardly qualify as constructive.

[Heracles 417]

Yeah I don't understand why there are ATM loyalty fees, low balance fees and why you're required to pay for check books.

Britain used to have the ATM fees, but they were made illegal after a trade and industry study found that the charges were outrageously inflated compared to what it actually cost the banks (like being charged $2 on $0.02!)

It's because Britain like Australia and Canada have independent governmental consumer protection bodies that look out for the powerless average Joe. So they know a $5 atm fee is a crock of ######.

Another example, people here are paranoid about the government even storing their first and last name on file. People in the above three don't really care about that. Common sense, they are your government derrr. What they do care is private industries or companies gathering and storing information about them. In America, even the FBI has to buy information from private companies as they are not allowed to gather it themselves. In Canada, once you seize doing business with a company, they must remove and delete all information stored on you. In Australia no business is allowed to store or sell information on you without your explicit authority.

Edited August 12, 2009 by haza

[Tinkerbell TX 0]

Ok it seems this thread has turned into a "let b1tch about how bad America is" thread. Seems to happen alot here at VJ, although the original poster led it in that direction with the spend money on war and not health comment. We also have the Aussie telling us how great his country is, how cute.

One of the biggest reasons many people don't want a NHS is we have seen how incompetent the government is and know better than to put them in charge of our health care.

No offense but for someone coming from a third world country, America is Gods land. Same way for someone driving a model T, the 2009 F150 is the best vehicle ever. For someone with an Audi S6 the F150 is a joke. The problem here is that many of You don't agree the Audi A6 is better than the F150. Same with health care. Same with the physical state of America and you certainly don't want to hear or even compare the two vehicles. Funnily enough, you have no problems bringing up the negatives of other nations, particularly more social ones, when it suits your agenda. Now if we back track prior to the 60's, yes the US kicked ####.

Dude, a pilgrim is not going to outsmart a convict. Even the f--n queen couldn't kill us. We know every trick in the book. We've just move on (progressed) from that but we can easily spot a scam. So when I see someone trying to pull a fast one, like my point above, I can spot it a mile away.

sure the Audi is a nicer vehicle, but not if you're a farmer!! One size does NOT fit all. Not even for healthcare.

[Heracles 417]

Exactly, and constant complaining by the usual suspects would hardly qualify as constructive.

Dude, I can easily keep this to myself. It's you guys who are losing. I ###### here, you live here. If you don't care to listen because it's the American thing to do, well it's your loss not mine. And boy have you guys lost. Ouch. Certainly not people living in these other more developed countries.

However, I can be American too and not give a flying #### about you either but I will not sit in silence to see the poor exploited. The irony is that this sort of free speech is exactly what your constitution is all about. You know, the constitution you guys bang your chest about 24/7. It's certainly not about allowing gay individuals to parade in the streets, that's for sure. Sounds like you guys need an English and contextual lesson too.

Edited August 12, 2009 by haza

[EasternDE 35]

I don't think Socialism exactly means the same thing in the USA as in Europe.

As one already mentionned, it's not the Socialism but what it involves. And according to your culture and your country history, it involves different things.

I have an analogy.

Patriotism.

In France, patriotism is straightly associated with nationalism, and fascism.

Here, whoever would put the french flag on his porch, or car, or wherever, would straightly be listed as a National Front member.

(I think it's pretty much the same in the UK...)

We all can easily guess why we make this association though... WWI, Hitler and his svastika flag parades are not so old.

That's the first thing we, europeans get in mind when we see flags everywhere.

So yes, I believe it's the same thing for Socialism which makes a direct reference to cold war and communism in an american mind.

I think that's one of the little differences we can only try to understand and accept, but not share with our S/O.

In my couple, we use this to tease each other. I don't think we can entirely see "where our partner is coming from".

It involves too many culture references which we don't share. I think that's also part of the fun.

Edited August 12, 2009 by EasternDE

[Peikko 1,575]

Power corrupts the government but apparently not large corporations or the rich.

This is your weakness. You cant worry about the large corps and rich in a capitalistic society. You are free to distance yourself from them. You dont have to do business with them. If they are corrupt move on to one that isn't.

You cant flee the goverment. When they become corrupt you are in trouble.

I still havn't figured out why the left in this country is so worried about big evil corps and the rich?

They aren't. You've been sold a lemon if you believe that.

[Heracles 417]

sure the Audi is a nicer vehicle, but not if you're a farmer!! One size does NOT fit all. Not even for healthcare.

US farmers couldn't survive a day without subsidies. Oh wait I thought we hated socialism.

Farmers and those in small towns have the most to gain from this reform. Check your facts first. The reform is not a one size fits all approach at all. Everyone with existing coverage will still be able to be covered by their same policy, just with a few extra benefits like coverage for pre-existing conditions.

Edited August 12, 2009 by haza

[mawilson 2,133]

Humans are social animals, not loners. At least naturally. We are our brother's keeper and the family unit itself - that most cherished icon of the Right Wing, is a model of socialism. We could start demanding that each family member fend for themselves, use their own refrigerators and stop cohabiting in a bed.

Not a bad thing to demand from your brother.

[My Name Is Nobody 3]

Power corrupts the government but apparently not large corporations or the rich.

This is your weakness. You cant worry about the large corps and rich in a capitalistic society. You are free to distance yourself from them. You dont have to do business with them. If they are corrupt move on to one that isn't.

You cant flee the goverment. When they become corrupt you are in trouble.

I still havn't figured out why the left in this country is so worried about big evil corps and the rich?

They aren't. You've been sold a lemon if you believe that.

Where have you been? Maybe you posted in the wrong thread?

[My Name Is Nobody 3]

Humans are social animals, not loners. At least naturally. We are our brother's keeper and the family unit itself - that most cherished icon of the Right Wing, is a model of socialism. We could start demanding that each family member fend for themselves, use their own refrigerators and stop cohabiting in a bed.

Not a bad thing to demand from your brother.

CBG, they want to do it on their own terms not with someone pointing a gun at them.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Ok it seems this thread has turned into a "let b1tch about how bad America is" thread. Seems to happen alot here at VJ, although the original poster led it in that direction with the spend money on war and not health comment. We also have the Aussie telling us how great his country is, how cute.

One of the biggest reasons many people don't want a NHS is we have seen how incompetent the government is and know better than to put them in charge of our health care.

No offense but for someone coming from a third world country, America is Gods land. Same way for someone driving a model T, the 2009 F150 is the best vehicle ever. For someone with an Audi S6 the F150 is a joke. The problem here is that many of You don't agree the Audi A6 is better than the F150. Same with health care. Same with the physical state of America and you certainly don't want to hear or even compare the two vehicles. Funnily enough, you have no problems bringing up the negatives of other nations, particularly more social ones, when it suits your agenda. Now if we back track prior to the 60's, yes the US kicked ####.

Dude, a pilgrim is not going to outsmart a convict. Even the f--n queen couldn't kill us. We know every trick in the book. We've just move on (progressed) from that but we can easily spot a scam. So when I see someone trying to pull a fast one, like my point above, I can spot it a mile away.

As far as A6, F150 comparison, in my line of work and my after work activities I would consider the F150 a better vehicle. In America how have we not compared the "two vehicles".

As far as bringing up negatives about other countries you must have mistaked me for someone else. My only criticism of other countries usually come in the form of me saying well that ####### goes on over there too.

[Heracles 417]

Power corrupts the government but apparently not large corporations or the rich.

This is your weakness. You cant worry about the large corps and rich in a capitalistic society. You are free to distance yourself from them. You dont have to do business with them. If they are corrupt move on to one that isn't.

You cant flee the goverment. When they become corrupt you are in trouble.

I still havn't figured out why the left in this country is so worried about big evil corps and the rich?

Hey, I'm a right wing conservative. I hate American liberalism, however, I too can see what is going on here first hand. Especially when you work overseas and you come here and see the dog eats dog work ethic.

If a government becomes corrupt, we allowed to to become corrupt. This is not Iran where you will be beaten for speaking up. Whereas, unless i own a few billion of Anthem, I have zero say in how they are run. That is why most other developed governments have independent federal consumer protection bodies. To protect the average Joe, like a farmer. What about the lobbyist here who get to call the shots and buy their way? Basically they get to blackmail and threaten anyone against them.

Most of the legacy and industrial corporations look out for their own ####. That is reality. They and their exploitation of foreign countries, is also the reason why a lot of people around the world want to take down America. They go in, pay off corrupt officials, exploit a country and them leave. People naturally don't see this as I hate XYZ corporation. They think those dirty yank bastards. It amazing how many people in rural America think than Bin Laden, a guy whose family is worth billions, wants to attack America because he is jealousy of our lifestyle.

Edited August 12, 2009 by haza

[Heracles 417]

As far as A6, F150 comparison, in my line of work and my after work activities I would consider the F150 a better vehicle. In America how have we not compared the "two vehicles".

As far as bringing up negatives about other countries you must have mistaked me for someone else. My only criticism of other countries usually come in the form of me saying well that ####### goes on over there too.

Which I never denied. However, there is a HUGE fundamental difference. They can take criticism and are keen on learning new ideas. Australia is ranked first in the world for Education Index but still constantly participates or host international forums or conferences to learn from others. They certianly don't have this what do you mean we're the best attitude, even though in that aspect, they are the ranked number one. If I went back to Australia and said we have they do this and this in the US and this could improve us here, people would listen and learn. Some would agree others would not. As I said earlier, Canada Australia and the UK constantly learn from one another. Hence their implementation and adaptation of Australia's points based immigration system.

This you're being negative or failure to accept your not the best is the reason why industry after industry is dying and losing steam in the US. At the end of the day, it's American living in tents. Aussies and Canadians only use tents when we camp, that is, during our four week annual vacation. It's why US airlines have not made a reasonable profit in 10 years, while Qantas has made profit after profit.

Edited August 12, 2009 by haza