to become an american citizen or not

[JillA 2]

I would never go to live in a country where the government does not take uniting families seriously. As an American citizen I would have thought you would be proud of the fact that the U.S. does take it seriously (in the cases of minor children and spouses).

It's not to be taken lightly. On the other hand I see your point about refugees from war torn countries. However if looked at realistically - due to the sheer volume - it would seem that if spouses and minor children were to go to the back of the line, that they would be waiting say 10-15 years to join their American spouses (Fathers/Mothers).

In that case you would see a lot of very frustrated and angry Americans methinks.

Bottom line - it is not about the rights of immigrants bow - it's about the right of U.S. citizens to bring their families to their home country.

Excellent way to sum it up

[bowflex 0]

I'm also not trying to be difficult or anything, I actually enjoy seeing the other side of this issue to broaden my horizons. I am very big about loyalty, not just to a country but to everything, just because of what I've seen over the last 7 years of being with my wife.

I've had to hear about a father being locked up by a corrupt Homeland Security Officer for 3 months, I've had to help my wife and her family pack up their condo into cars to go over a border within a week's notice, I've had to lay next to my wife the night before and watch her cry as she's being forced to leave the home she's known for 15 years. I've had to drive over a border that my wife's never been allowed to go near in the early morning and then spend all day looking for a place for a family of four to try to sleep at. I've watched this family who built everything from nothing in America get forced to live in a motel for a month and start completely over again when most people are just beginning to relax and enjoy their lives.

Now these people are amazing and now have their own home, full time jobs, cars, the works, and I've never been so proud to be a part of anything in my life. I've gone through pure hatred for the USA and have come to just acknowledge that every government has faults and that an entire country can't be judged just by those. There are good people here and it took me a very long time to realize that.

I'm not trying to say that others haven't gone through worse or anything like that, I just wanted y'all to see why I may feel the way I do about certain things. I am very happy that I feel comfortable enough on a forum to actually share something like that and I respect y'all greatly for your debating and willingness to discuss stuff LOL.

[bowflex 0]

I would never go to live in a country where the government does not take uniting families seriously. As an American citizen I would have thought you would be proud of the fact that the U.S. does take it seriously (in the cases of minor children and spouses).

It's not to be taken lightly. On the other hand I see your point about refugees from war torn countries. However if looked at realistically - due to the sheer volume - it would seem that if spouses and minor children were to go to the back of the line, that they would be waiting say 10-15 years to join their American spouses (Fathers/Mothers).

In that case you would see a lot of very frustrated and angry Americans methinks.

Bottom line - it is not about the rights of immigrants bow - it's about the right of U.S. citizens to bring their families to their home country.

I most definitely think joining families together is a very important thing, but I also see no reason why there can't be different levels to that system. If the person wants to bring their SO over and then leave in a few years, fine, in my opinion this should be allowed but not before someone who's going to make America their home.

Also the sheer volume is a great point and I always have trouble with it because I just can't think of people anymore as statistics. I know that this is something the government has to take into account, I'll just never be able to get my head wrapped around that.

And yes, very good point about the USA not really caring about the immigrant's rights as that's so true it hurts. It's just not the right of any citizen to bring over their family, however, it's a priviledge. I had my wife already living in the States and I had absolutely no right or power to keep her here, I just had the opportunity to bring her back after the government shipped her away.

[BermyCat 1]

I have no problem with anyone who doesn't wish to get citizenship here, I just believe that those who do have that intention should be placed in front of those who don't.

All this would accomplish is to have most immigration applicants declare their intention to get citizenship simply to be moved to the front of the line. They'd do this even if they planned to leave the US a year or two after getting citizenship.

It seems there are two issues that concern you. The difficulties that refugees have when they want to come to the States and make it their new home and indignation that spouses/fiancé(e)s that don't intend to become citizens have an easier time getting here than refugees who are planning to become citizens.

For the first, I'd be willing bet that process for refugees is unfair and needs to be overhauled.

For the second, I disagree with the idea that whether or not someone wants become a citizen is reflective of how deserving they are to come here. I am planning to live here for good. I'm going to respect the laws and values here, probably more so than some of the US citizens I've met. I'm going to be a net positive to the country. Beyond paying taxes when I find a job, I'm committed to volunteerism and I'll do my best to make sure that any children Phil and I have are too. I wouldn't feel right about becoming an American unless being American is going to be something that means a lot to me. I don't think that people like me should have a harder time getting here than anyone else.

~ Catherine

[Kathryn41 3,205]

This is a timely discussion for me. I just took my citizenship test and interview this afternoon (and passed - oath ceremony on August 26th). Several comments I would like to add:

I fully support moving refugee claimants to the head of the line. In many cases these people are fleeing lives that some of us just can't imagine. For humanitarian reasons I have no problems with refugees being prioritized and assisted as they establish a new life in their new home.

Bowflex, you state that you object to people taking out citizenship who don't intend to spend the rest of their lives in the US. How do you feel about Americans who choose to retire in places like the Dominican Republic and Costa Rica and even Mexico where they can afford a much better life style than they can in the US? They are putting self-interest ahead of 'loyalty' as well. I think that those who chose to retire in other countries should not be penalized because they didn't end up spending all of their lives in the US. As we become more global citizens we will reflect global identities and I think this is a good thing that may even help us develop greater tolerance for individuals from different cultures. I actually view one of the biggest liabilities of Americans is their insulation from the rest of the world - they have no world view, no world experience, no world understanding on a whole. It is 'USA' or nothing. We all lose when that is the attitude. More Americans should have the opportunity to move and live in other countries so they can broaden the depth of their own experiences, appreciate diversities of other cultures, and see both the strengths and weaknesses of their own.

When taking on the citizenship of another country I do believe it is important to understand their ideology, but more importantly to agree to support the government of the country you are in and to uphold its laws. If someone takes on Canadian citizenship I have no problem if they are uncomfortable swearing allegiance to the Queen, but I do want them to be honest in their commitment to uphold the laws of the land.

There is no conflict here for me having dual citizenship with Canada. I support and believe in both countries and I really do see myself as a dual citizen - a Canadian and an American - at the same time. I will certainly give as honest and dedicated a commitment to my US identity as I did to my Canadian identity and am pleased that finally, I will have a voice once again.

[thetreble 19]

Very well put, Kathryn. Congrats on passing.

[~Laura and Nick~ 5]

Congrats on passing Kathryn!!!

If I had my way...there would be no countries at all.

Just the citizens of earth.....

I am such a dreamer.

Edited August 13, 2009 by ~Laura and Nick~

[JillA 2]

Congrats Kathryn, and yes very well put indeed!

[The Dude 206]

When taking on the citizenship of another country I do believe it is important to understand their ideology, but more importantly to agree to support the government of the country you are in and to uphold its laws. If someone takes on Canadian citizenship I have no problem if they are uncomfortable swearing allegiance to the Queen, but I do want them to be honest in their commitment to uphold the laws of the land.

There is no conflict here for me having dual citizenship with Canada. I support and believe in both countries and I really do see myself as a dual citizen - a Canadian and an American - at the same time. I will certainly give as honest and dedicated a commitment to my US identity as I did to my Canadian identity and am pleased that finally, I will have a voice once again.

Thats what I've been saying this whole time

If that is the attitude you have when entering into citizenship then more power too you. I personally don't think length of time should have any bearing on taking citizenship, unless you know beforehand that you are only going to be living there for a specific period of time. My problem is with people who take citizenship purely out of convenience and even go so far as to deny any affiliation with being an american citizen. That is a perfectly valid sentiment, and I can understand someone not wanting to be an American citizen, but that is also the perfect rationale to remain a permanent resident.

[Carlawarla 1]

How about throwing into the fray those that HAVE to become American citizens because of their spouses employ? I'm not being given that right to say that I don't want to become an American citizen, well, at least not really. I guess I could say no, and my husband would lose his job? I'm going to become an American citizen next year. Actually...the more I think about it, I SHOULD be moved to the front of the line!

Congratulations Kathryn!!

[Ban Hammer 13,333]

yay kathryn! soon we'll have an american mod around here.

carla, never heard of anything like that.

[warlord 73]

I guess after reading all the responses it is a bigger issue then I had originally thought. The sence of betrayal to the fatherland and not really wanting to uphold the oath, still claiming the original nationality as your nationality etc, but getting the citizenship just for convience and not really standing behind what the oath is all about.

When I went in, I was prepared to give up my Canadian citizenship right there if I had to. It meant nothing to me and I was going in knowing I was going to become an American. Of course Canada doesn't make you lose your citizenship, but if it had come down to it I wouldn't have had a problem. I took the oath as it is. Would I bear arms to defend the US? Sure, if it came down to that (this is probably the biggest thing in the oath that people have issues with).

I guess I took the entire oath thing litterly and to the heart. I no longer carry a Canadian passport and not sure I'll even get it renewed again. When asked my citizenship, I proudly say Amercian. I don't even mention Canadian unless they ask where I used to live etc.

So yeah I can see people standing there taking the oath and really not beliveing or supporting what they say. One could always just stand there and not actually say the oath. In my ceremony there were 350 of us all trying to say the oath at the same time and it became quite funny with everyone at different parts. Some I know didn't even mouth the words at all. Maybe this was their way of standing there for it, but not personally committing to the oath, but it would have no impact on your outcome as no one checks if you really are saying it or not.

Everyone is different, and I know many Indian people seem to flock to get their citizenships, only to turn around and move right back to India. It's so common that many try and leave after they've filed the N-400 which they can't do. You begin to wonder about that and all they want is a saftey net in case something happens over there and they have to flee, so they use the US citizenship as a saftey buffer.

So you will always have people that won't take the oath very to heart or seriously, and then you'll have others like me who did take it seriously and had no problem mentally getting rid of the Canadian stigma at all. Since I never plan to ever move there again.

The US and Canada will probably never be at war with each other, so having to make a choice who to fight for (for some) would never be an issue, there won't be any trade embargo's or visiting embargos like Cuba with Canada preventing people from visiting if you are a citizen etc. So people won't have to worry about taking the oath and then thinking they would have to defend the US against the crazy mounted Canucks with their wool hats and cases of Molson Canadian strapped to their waist holding seal clubbing sticks or anything...

[JillA 2]

I guess after reading all the responses it is a bigger issue then I had originally thought. The sence of betrayal to the fatherland and not really wanting to uphold the oath, still claiming the original nationality as your nationality etc, but getting the citizenship just for convience and not really standing behind what the oath is all about.

When I went in, I was prepared to give up my Canadian citizenship right there if I had to. It meant nothing to me and I was going in knowing I was going to become an American. Of course Canada doesn't make you lose your citizenship, but if it had come down to it I wouldn't have had a problem. I took the oath as it is. Would I bear arms to defend the US? Sure, if it came down to that (this is probably the biggest thing in the oath that people have issues with).

I guess I took the entire oath thing litterly and to the heart. I no longer carry a Canadian passport and not sure I'll even get it renewed again. When asked my citizenship, I proudly say Amercian. I don't even mention Canadian unless they ask where I used to live etc.

So yeah I can see people standing there taking the oath and really not beliveing or supporting what they say. One could always just stand there and not actually say the oath. In my ceremony there were 350 of us all trying to say the oath at the same time and it became quite funny with everyone at different parts. Some I know didn't even mouth the words at all. Maybe this was their way of standing there for it, but not personally committing to the oath, but it would have no impact on your outcome as no one checks if you really are saying it or not.

Everyone is different, and I know many Indian people seem to flock to get their citizenships, only to turn around and move right back to India. It's so common that many try and leave after they've filed the N-400 which they can't do. You begin to wonder about that and all they want is a saftey net in case something happens over there and they have to flee, so they use the US citizenship as a saftey buffer.

So you will always have people that won't take the oath very to heart or seriously, and then you'll have others like me who did take it seriously and had no problem mentally getting rid of the Canadian stigma at all. Since I never plan to ever move there again.

The US and Canada will probably never be at war with each other, so having to make a choice who to fight for (for some) would never be an issue, there won't be any trade embargo's or visiting embargos like Cuba with Canada preventing people from visiting if you are a citizen etc. So people won't have to worry about taking the oath and then thinking they would have to defend the US against the crazy mounted Canucks with their wool hats and cases of Molson Canadian strapped to their waist holding seal clubbing sticks or anything...

OMG, if that ever did happen.... LOL!!

[bowflex 0]

Bowflex, you state that you object to people taking out citizenship who don't intend to spend the rest of their lives in the US. How do you feel about Americans who choose to retire in places like the Dominican Republic and Costa Rica and even Mexico where they can afford a much better life style than they can in the US?

Hey Kathryn,

First and foremost, congrats on passing!!!

As for my posts, the only actual problem I have is people that come over on a visa but fully plan on leaving once their spouse retires or something along those lines. If someone applies at the same time as someone else and only one intends to stay for their entire life and get citizenship, I believe that person should be placed in front of the one who plans on leaving. If there is no intent on leaving when someone applies I have no problems as I know life can change and they may need to leave or whatever. I just don't think that people who are just coming over for a few years so that the family can make a few more bucks or something because the USC has a better job or something like that is right, just a personal opinion. I know that finances are a huge part of life, not as big to me as to some others, but I feel immigrating to a country should be about a lot more than just being with someone or making more money, there should also be a love for that country and a desire to make it better.

As for the loyalty, I would just like anyone who immigrates to another country to be loyal and work to improve their community while they're there. If someone immigrates to the US and then immigrates to another country, I just think they should be loyal and living well in whatever country they now live in.

Again, congrats on passing!

[trailmix 77]

I suppose in an immigration world of sunshine and rainbows that might be possible - but realistically - it's not.

As someone mentioned, you would just have a bunch of people pledging to live in the U.S. forever.

Scenario (using your thought process).

Let's say your wife was born in Canada and is a proud and happy Canadian that loves her country. You are obviously a proud American. You meet online and then in person and you have found your soul mates!!

You decide you want to get married and live happily ever after.

Now neither of you are willing to plege allegiance to any country other than your homeland and realistically your wife might prefer that you move to Canada in 10 years - so with your outlook, she really should not apply for U.S. citizenship.

Do you mean to say that you two should go to the back of the line for her immigration to the U.S.? Would you personally be willing to wait 10 years (not sure how long it takes to get refugee status in the U.S.) for her to be able to immigrate - based on your principles?

Edited August 14, 2009 by trailmix