The politicians are not asking their constituents, “What should we do about healthcare reform?” They are saying. “This is what we plan to do and why.”

[GaryC 7]

Perhaps someone can answer this question for me - I've been following some of the TV coverage about the health reforms and I'm baffled by what people mean by 'Government'. I thought this was a democracy and that we're the government and if there's something we don't like about the people we've elected we have timely (or fairly timely) elections to get us a new set of representatives - for the people, by the people and all that...

So we're suggesting we the people take over the running of our health and continue to have the power to tell people how to do that ?

Or are most Americans now certain we believe in a system of patronage and the government represents the feudal lord? How many people here are actually represented by the people who are suggesting we keep government out of government and let profit-driven organisations run our healthcare instead of us?

I guess you have surmised that I no longer trust the government. That is indeed true. Last year I was still under the false impression that the people we elect serve us and electing reps would somehow bring about the kind of changes I wanted. Well, I was wrong. Regardless of the letter behind the name almost all the elected officials have their own agenda independent of what their constituents want. Attaining power and keeping it is the major goal of most in Washington these days. The back room deals, the special interest groups and the powerful CEO's run things now. I realize this is nothing new, it has been going on for a long time. Yeah I am cynical, but I feel I have good reason to be so.

On the subject of health care, I don't think most politicians have our best interest at heart. I think they are all jockeying for their own piece of the pie. Each has their own agenda and special interest group to please. Once the "government" gains control over health care I honestly believe that it will spiral out of control due to their allegiance to these groups. The people and their needs will always take a back seat. They all give lip service to the issues due to the need to get re-elected but once they are entrenched and secure in their positions they forget about us.

My main fear with the government taking over health care is this, once they gain power they will seek to expand it. At some point they will have total control. At that point they will pad things, change things and expand things until it is so convoluted and complicated that no one can control it. At some point in the future the costs will be so high that it cannot be sustained. But since we will be dependent on the system we will not be able to unravel it. The system will collapse and rationing will result with the government deciding who gets what. All we have to do is to look at any other government social program. Despite what others say social security, medicare and any other program you can name is running huge cost overruns. We will multiply that many times over with health care. I just don't see it working.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The good news is support for Health Care Reform is falling fast. It would be political suicide for the bluedogs to vote for it now.

Keep convincing yourself that, Gary. As Frank Lutz even said - if the GOP simply ignores the elephant in the closet (48 million uninsured), you've lost the battle. As clever as these planted political hacks disrupting Democratic Congressman's Town Hall meetings (funny...where were they during the GOP Town Hall meetings? hmmm)...all the dirty political tricks will not get you your agenda. You guys lost the election even when tried the same sh!t then (Obama's a Muslim, Obama the angry black man, etc). We will have health care reform passed for the end of the year and you guys will again have egg on your face...for the simple fact that your party has turned it's back on 48 million voting Americans.

[GaryC 7]

The good news is support for Health Care Reform is falling fast. It would be political suicide for the bluedogs to vote for it now.

Keep convincing yourself that, Gary. As Frank Lutz even said - if the GOP simply ignores the elephant in the closet (48 million uninsured), you've lost the battle. As clever as these planted political hacks disrupting Democratic Congressman's Town Hall meetings (funny...where were they during the GOP Town Hall meetings? hmmm)...all the dirty political tricks will not get you your agenda. You guys lost the election even when tried the same sh!t then (Obama's a Muslim, Obama the angry black man, etc). We will have health care reform passed for the end of the year and you guys will again have egg on your face...for the simple fact that your party has turned it's back on 48 million voting Americans.

You have gone beyond partisan and are now in the arena of tin foil hats if you think the anger at the town halls are just plants. How about them polls? Are those just the evil conservatives faking things? Step back from that kool aid sir, you have had enough.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The good news is support for Health Care Reform is falling fast. It would be political suicide for the bluedogs to vote for it now.

Keep convincing yourself that, Gary. As Frank Lutz even said - if the GOP simply ignores the elephant in the closet (48 million uninsured), you've lost the battle. As clever as these planted political hacks disrupting Democratic Congressman's Town Hall meetings (funny...where were they during the GOP Town Hall meetings? hmmm)...all the dirty political tricks will not get you your agenda. You guys lost the election even when tried the same sh!t then (Obama's a Muslim, Obama the angry black man, etc). We will have health care reform passed for the end of the year and you guys will again have egg on your face...for the simple fact that your party has turned it's back on 48 million voting Americans.

Don't be so cocky, noob. You won the battle, but the war is still on. I'm an uninsured voting American, and I'm against his "health insurance" (they've changed the name) plan.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

The good news is support for Health Care Reform is falling fast. It would be political suicide for the bluedogs to vote for it now.

Keep convincing yourself that, Gary. As Frank Lutz even said - if the GOP simply ignores the elephant in the closet (48 million uninsured), you've lost the battle. As clever as these planted political hacks disrupting Democratic Congressman's Town Hall meetings (funny...where were they during the GOP Town Hall meetings? hmmm)...all the dirty political tricks will not get you your agenda. You guys lost the election even when tried the same sh!t then (Obama's a Muslim, Obama the angry black man, etc). We will have health care reform passed for the end of the year and you guys will again have egg on your face...for the simple fact that your party has turned it's back on 48 million voting Americans.

Don't be so cocky, noob. You won the battle, but the war is still on. I'm an uninsured voting American, and I'm against his "health insurance" (they've changed the name) plan.

Crazy like a fox eh?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The good news is support for Health Care Reform is falling fast. It would be political suicide for the bluedogs to vote for it now.

Keep convincing yourself that, Gary. As Frank Lutz even said - if the GOP simply ignores the elephant in the closet (48 million uninsured), you've lost the battle. As clever as these planted political hacks disrupting Democratic Congressman's Town Hall meetings (funny...where were they during the GOP Town Hall meetings? hmmm)...all the dirty political tricks will not get you your agenda. You guys lost the election even when tried the same sh!t then (Obama's a Muslim, Obama the angry black man, etc). We will have health care reform passed for the end of the year and you guys will again have egg on your face...for the simple fact that your party has turned it's back on 48 million voting Americans.

You have gone beyond partisan and are now in the arena of tin foil hats if you think the anger at the town halls are just plants. How about them polls? Are those just the evil conservatives faking things? Step back from that kool aid sir, you have had enough.

There's proof out there that most of them are hacks, but anyone with both eyes and ears open, who listens to the rants from some of these people would realize they ain't talking about specifics but are acting hysterical over ideology. Some of them may just be regular Joe's who've been caught up in the Fox News driven hysteria, but I guarantee you - if you could actually question one of these ranters, you'd realize that they don't really have anything specific to gripe about over health care except on ideological grounds.

The fact is, Gary, unlike you, most Americans are NOT ideologues...and after 8 years of Republican control running our country into the ground, most Americans spoke their minds at the voting booth. Obama was very vocal up until the election about his agenda and what he intended on doing regarding such issues as health care. Try heeding your own advice and step away from Faux News long enough to realize just what a propaganda machine it really is.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

He has explained many times what he wants to see in the final bill.

He hasn't explained how much it's really going to cost us and how he's going to pay for it.

I've heard lots of proposals - a federal VAT, tax on millionaires, "fat tax" on soft drinks, tax on cosmetic surgeries, full or partial tax on health care benefits - lots of fluff and "options on the table" but no actual details.

obama wants the people to simply fork over money ... without providing total costs and how these costs are to be met.

And that's the problem. Even if he finds a way to pay for it, he essentially wants to create a program that grows exponentially without any curbing of the growth of funding. You can't have a program that is an open-ended check. What are we going to do with the unfunded future liabilities?

Don't look now but that's where we're at if we just continue down the track we're on. The 12K that the average family spends today on ehalth insurance will soon - much too soon - be twice that. The share of GDP sucked up by health care is now at 16% - world record - and will hit 25% very soon. A quarter of the economic output sucked up by health care? What kind of a liability is that? And how is that going to be "funded"?

I am the first to agree that significant cost-cutting measures would be in order. There are three fronts I see in this battle: fee-for-service, pharma industry and health insurance. Question is, can you tackle all at once? I don't think so. We're merely cracking the shell of the last item on my list and the result is nothing short of an all out war against reform. Imagine the propaganda machine you'd be up against if you tackled two or all of these issues at once and comprehensively. You'd get nothing done.

So, you start where you see not only the most bang for the buck but where you also right a disastrous wrong - the fcuked up health insurance situation. Have those companies earn their money rather than allowing them to merely take it out of your pocket and mine. Get that done and then start working on compensation schemes and on reigning in big pharma.

[Niels Bohr 72]

If this is the future of our government, aka eating each other at town halls, aggressively using rhetoric, it'll be the end of the US in a few decades.

[mawilson 2,133]

Don't look now but that's where we're at if we just continue down the track we're on. The 12K that the average family spends today on ehalth insurance will soon - much too soon - be twice that.

It won't be twice that because the average family can't afford $24k. You can only push prices

so far before you start seeing diminishing returns which drive people away from your business.

That's the beauty of the free-market system - people pay $12k because they can afford it.

Those who can't, don't.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If this is the future of our government, aka eating each other at town halls, aggressively using rhetoric, it'll be the end of the US in a few decades.

Nah...don't let their antics fool you. These are a small minority of Americans. The same ones who tried to start a Teabagging Movement, but failed. They can't persuade most Americans to buy into their extremist views, so they try to use fear and intimidation to bend people's will. They are an intolerant bunch who, IMO, are the epitome of anti-Americanism. To them, it's only American if it's done according to their narrow way of things. I have faith that the majority of Americans will wise up to their antics and tune their rants out. What matters most is the real Americans hurting right now...the 48 million uninsured. They have a voice too.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If this is the future of our government, aka eating each other at town halls, aggressively using rhetoric, it'll be the end of the US in a few decades.

Its certainly hard to see how anything can be achieved in such a polarised climate.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Don't look now but that's where we're at if we just continue down the track we're on. The 12K that the average family spends today on ehalth insurance will soon - much too soon - be twice that.

It won't be twice that because the average family can't afford $24k. You can only push prices so far before you start seeing diminishing returns which drive people away from your business. That's the beauty of the free-market system - people pay $12k because they can afford it. Those who can't, don't.

I'm sure people made that very argument a decade ago when coverage cost under 6K. Guess what, we've more than doubled the premiums all the same over a decade and our economy continues to be less competitive for it. Not to mention the fact that the overall health indicators improved less in this country than in those industrialized countries where health care is not only considerably less expensive but also more widely accessible.

[mawilson 2,133]

Don't look now but that's where we're at if we just continue down the track we're on. The 12K that the average family spends today on ehalth insurance will soon - much too soon - be twice that.

It won't be twice that because the average family can't afford $24k. You can only push prices so far before you start seeing diminishing returns which drive people away from your business. That's the beauty of the free-market system - people pay $12k because they can afford it. Those who can't, don't.

I'm sure people made that very argument a decade ago when coverage cost under 6K.

And they were wrong - people could obviously pay more than $6k. They can probably pay more

than $12k today, maybe even $24k, but there *is* a natural market-imposed limit.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Don't look now but that's where we're at if we just continue down the track we're on. The 12K that the average family spends today on ehalth insurance will soon - much too soon - be twice that.

It won't be twice that because the average family can't afford $24k. You can only push prices so far before you start seeing diminishing returns which drive people away from your business. That's the beauty of the free-market system - people pay $12k because they can afford it. Those who can't, don't.

I'm sure people made that very argument a decade ago when coverage cost under 6K.

And they were wrong - people could obviously pay more than $6k. They can probably pay more

than $12k today, maybe even $24k, but there *is* a natural market-imposed limit.

Sure there is. But I don't think that maxing out on that pain point does the competitiveness of the US economy as a whole any favors. Nor do I think that we should be unconcerned about the very real prospect of the health care industry taking up a quarter of this nation's economic output.

[mawilson 2,133]

Sure there is. But I don't think that maxing out on that pain point does the competitiveness of the US economy as a whole any favors. Nor do I think that we should be unconcerned about the very real prospect of the health care industry taking up a quarter of this nation's economic output.

I agree, something has to be done. I don't know if you saw this chart I posted a couple of

weeks ago in another thread:

It basically shows that the consumption share of GDP excluding expenditure on medical care

hasn't really changed much since 1960 - the entire "consumption binge" seems to have been

driven by health care costs.