'Un-American' attacks can't derail health care debate

[Ban Hammer 13,636]

####### - people are now agreeing with boo-yah

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well Gary actually said he'd knowingly lie about the bill in order to get it shot down and he has no problem with those who do. Whichever direction you lean in - its hard to see how that's justifiable.

Luckily we don't have politicians lying in support of the bill. Yeah right,

Their view is that reforming health care is so important that lying for a good cause is acceptable because once it becomes law it will never go away once there is a new class of dependents on the programs. Even better just ignore protests for months until they can't be ignored, then paint them all as extremist robots.

You may disagree with parts of this but that's the way it is.

They don't even know what's in the damn bill but are opposing it on purely philosophical grounds and for no other reason than that the "other side" is promoting it. I know that's the way it is, but its incredibly dishonest.

As I said, I don't understand how anything gets done in such a polarised political climate.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

####### - people are now agreeing with boo-yah

Don't pull your hair out, Charlie Brown.

[GaryC 7]

I agree with you there - its astounding what's happening; and if what Gary said in the other thread is any indication people are deliberately trying to derail reform talks by making up BS about what will be in the reform bill.

Did you know most of flak on Bush's prescription plan came from conservatives? The point is there are people who'll vote for it no matter what's in it just as there are those would oppose it for their own reasons.

It was astounding to me how Obama's communication director didn't have a single reply to Obama's speech wanting single-payer in 2003 beyond "taken out of context".

If it's so great and popular why can't all those for Obamacare sign up for it and pay with their taxes?

Well Gary actually said he'd knowingly lie about the bill in order to get it shot down and he has no problem with those who do. Whichever direction you lean in - its hard to see how that's justifiable.

I didn't say "I" would knowingly lie to kill the bill. I said that any means available to us should be used to kill this health care bill. It is justifiable because those that are promoting it are also lying through their teeth about it. They say it isn't going to be a single payer bill and then we find ample examples of Obama and other saying it will. The health care bill isn't going to fix anything. It will make things worse. Everything that the government tries to fix gets worse. I have seen it over and over again all my life. Yeah I am a cynic. I have learned the hard way that the less the government is involved the better.

But you want to know why I really am opposed to all this? BECAUSE WE CANNOT AFFORD IT!!! Medicare and Social Security are swimming in red ink. The problems we are having now with the banking and housing crisis will be small potatoes compared to the crisis that is coming with SS and Medicare. Depending on who you believe they have between 50 and 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. We just spent trillions on bailouts, TARP and stimulus. How in the hell are we suppost to do this??? Jesus people, wake up!!!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The CBO price tag on the health care bill passed by Congress is less than the size of the three tax cuts Bush passed.

That gives me a crazy idea.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The CBO price tag on the health care bill passed by Congress is less than the size of the three tax cuts Bush passed.

That gives me a crazy idea.

<teabag just dropped to the floor>

[alienlovechild 75]

They don't even know what's in the damn bill but are opposing it on purely philosophical grounds and for no other reason than that the "other side" is promoting it. I know that's the way it is, but its incredibly dishonest.

Other side? A lot of conservatives didn't like Bush's prescription drug plan but they were more likely not to be so vocal in opposition. You really believe there's not a single bad thing about a very complex bill? That's not dishonest but it's pretty naive on a trillion dollar program.

As I said, I don't understand how anything gets done in such a polarised political climate.

Sometimes you don't want to enact a bad bill forcing the proponents to repackage the bill in a more palatable form. It's a "no build" option in my line of work and that should always be an option.

It's odd that even the biggest Obama supporters don't just push for broader Medicaid or Medicare coverage. There's some fundemental questions that are never addressed beyond the same sound bites.

[GaryC 7]

The CBO price tag on the health care bill passed by Congress is less than the size of the three tax cuts Bush passed.

That gives me a crazy idea.

And you believe that the projected price tag is the reality? Tell me, what was the initial estimate for Medicare, Medicade and Social Security?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The CBO price tag on the health care bill passed by Congress is less than the size of the three tax cuts Bush passed.

That gives me a crazy idea.

And you believe that the projected price tag is the reality? Tell me, what was the initial estimate for Medicare, Medicade and Social Security?

I can't discuss a number you've conjured up in your head, Gary. Sorry.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

They don't even know what's in the damn bill but are opposing it on purely philosophical grounds and for no other reason than that the "other side" is promoting it. I know that's the way it is, but its incredibly dishonest.

Other side? A lot of conservatives didn't like Bush's prescription drug plan but they were more likely not to be so vocal in opposition. You really believe there's not a single bad thing about a very complex bill? That's not dishonest but it's pretty naive on a trillion dollar program.

What's wrong with waiting for the final details - why do people feel the need to make up garbage for the sake of hysteria?

[alienlovechild 75]

But you want to know why I really am opposed to all this? BECAUSE WE CANNOT AFFORD IT!!! Medicare and Social Security are swimming in red ink. The problems we are having now with the banking and housing crisis will be small potatoes compared to the crisis that is coming with SS and Medicare. Depending on who you believe they have between 50 and 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. We just spent trillions on bailouts, TARP and stimulus. How in the hell are we suppost to do this??? Jesus people, wake up!!!

Money is no object for these folks. Give them the money and shut up. Welcome to Obama's America.

You're un-American because you're using caps.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Well Gary actually said he'd knowingly lie about the bill in order to get it shot down and he has no problem with those who do. Whichever direction you lean in - its hard to see how that's justifiable.

Luckily we don't have politicians lying in support of the bill. Yeah right,

Their view is that reforming health care is so important that lying for a good cause is acceptable because once it becomes law it will never go away once there is a new class of dependents on the programs. Even better just ignore protests for months until they can't be ignored, then paint them all as extremist robots.

You may disagree with parts of this but that's the way it is.

They don't even know what's in the damn bill but are opposing it on purely philosophical grounds and for no other reason than that the "other side" is promoting it. I know that's the way it is, but its incredibly dishonest.

As I said, I don't understand how anything gets done in such a polarised political climate.

How about:

They don't even know what's in the damn bill but are promoting it on purely philosophical grounds and for no other reason than that the "other side" is opposing it. I know that's the way it is, but its incredibly dishonest.

Does that sound better?

[GaryC 7]

The CBO price tag on the health care bill passed by Congress is less than the size of the three tax cuts Bush passed.

That gives me a crazy idea.

And you believe that the projected price tag is the reality? Tell me, what was the initial estimate for Medicare, Medicade and Social Security?

I can't discuss a number you've conjured up in your head, Gary. Sorry.

*looks around* What numbers? I asked you if you think the original estimates for this will be the reality? Then I asked if you know what the original estimates for Medicare and SS were.

Here I will give you a little help:

Richard W. Fisher, President of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas has remarked that in order to "cover the unfunded liability" for the Medicare program today over an infinite time horizon, "you would be stuck with an $85.6 trillion bill" which is "more than six times the annual output of the entire U.S. economy", and noted that "Medicare was a pay-as-you-go program from the very beginning."[39]

The present value of unfunded obligations under all parts of Medicare during FY 2007 over a 75-year forecast horizon is approximately $34.0 trillion. In other words, this amount would have to be set aside today such that the principal and interest would cover the shortfall over the next 75 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well Gary actually said he'd knowingly lie about the bill in order to get it shot down and he has no problem with those who do. Whichever direction you lean in - its hard to see how that's justifiable.

Luckily we don't have politicians lying in support of the bill. Yeah right,

Their view is that reforming health care is so important that lying for a good cause is acceptable because once it becomes law it will never go away once there is a new class of dependents on the programs. Even better just ignore protests for months until they can't be ignored, then paint them all as extremist robots.

You may disagree with parts of this but that's the way it is.

They don't even know what's in the damn bill but are opposing it on purely philosophical grounds and for no other reason than that the "other side" is promoting it. I know that's the way it is, but its incredibly dishonest.

As I said, I don't understand how anything gets done in such a polarised political climate.

How about:

They don't even know what's in the damn bill but are promoting it on purely philosophical grounds and for no other reason than that the "other side" is opposing it. I know that's the way it is, but its incredibly dishonest.

Does that sound better?

More ####### for tat?

No, not really.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The CBO estimate is the only estimate we have that's been arrived at by any kind of actual methodology. That number is less than the CBO estimate (yes...) for the three Bush tax cuts.

You can rant and rave about how wrong the CBO is but unless you and your hillbilly buddies can put together something better, the CBO estimate is what we'll have to work with.