The thread locking is out of control

[mox 298]

Seriously...this?

Time was, a conversation could reach a natural conclusion on this site. Now we're closing an entire thread down whenever it starts to get off track or a couple people have a little pissing contest. There was no reason this thread should have been closed down unless the OP requested it. And please don't step in and quote me chapter and verse, because basically any moderating action can be justified by the TOS or moderator guidelines. The fact of the matter is that this site ceases to be useful when conversations aren't allowed to come to a natural conclusion, even if that conversation is taking the thread somewhat off-topic.

And by the way, last I remember we were going to start asking members to cease and desist, rather than close down entire threads. Pretty sure Ewok mentioned something like that a few months back. So even if there were a few posters derailing this thread (me amongst them), why was the entire thread locked? How does that help?

Mods...PLEASE step back and let conversation happen. It may not be the intent of the OP, and you may not always like it, but unless the thread has completely devolved into nastiness, either warn the participants or stand back. Or even better, try to use a tool other than buttons to get the thread back on track, such as your own participation in the conversation. (See some of Mags' old posts for examples of a moderator who could turn a thread on a dime.) Used to be that actual moderation was the first line of moderation. Now it seems like either an after-thought or no thought at all. And if it's a matter of limited time and limited moderators, then maybe we should revisit for the umteenth time the issue of getting enough mods to do a proper job.

And lest I be accused of picking on Kathryn or moderators in general, I want to make it clear that I've been a huge supporter of the moderating team in the past, and I still believe we have a top notch moderating team--I include every mod in that statement. But I'm starting to see a pretty alarming trend these days, and I don't think it helps VJ one whit. Let's please get back to basics. Moderating is another name for facilitating, not button-pushing.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Mox, point well taken (in the general sense)-

In most cases I believe a mod or myself should give fair and public warning (any why) if a thread id going over the top before closing it. This gives the members a chance to "reset" and get things OT or reduce any inflammation that may be causing TOS issues. I will ask the mod to review the thread you noted and if it makes sense unlock. Regardless I will ask the mods in the future to post notice in advance prior to closing a thread if things are getting out of control

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Or even better, try to use a tool other than buttons to get the thread back on track, such as your own participation in the conversation. (See some of Mags' old posts for examples of a moderator who could turn a thread on a dime.)

I agree with this. It does help and is very effective in many cases (think back to Steve and he followed this method as well). I will point the mods here to read as we can always as a team learn and grow more effective. Moderating is always a balancing act and good feedback like this is nice to have.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Moderating is another name for facilitating, not button-pushing.

I agree and while these tools certainly help they are not the only tools as you said. If anything the mod team may be stretched a bit thin given their double duty on helping to control some recent spam. This may make it hard to get too "personally" involved in each issue as was suggested (and is indeed helpful). Possible solutions you made above are certainly useful, also adding another mod or a team of "spam patrol" VJ'ers (the mods and I agree this might be useful) are some solutions under discussion already.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Lol. This topic is actually great timing. I just had an IM from a close friend of VJ and I pointed him here. He just told me that he would be willing to pitch in some time to help with the item in post #3 above.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Hmm...Is there a pissing contest on VJ?

[rebeccajo 14]

I don't see anything wrong with this thread having been locked.

The argument had gotten to where it wasn't about use of an attorney - it was about whether or not someone had guessed a member was using an attorney.

Besides, there are times where a particular member may be on a 'crusade' in a thread, and the 'crusade' is against the well-being of the site. This has been pointed out to Gary many times and yet he continues.

As far as I can see, Gary reached the 'boiling point' with TBone when he mentioned TBone should keep himself to the Latin American forums. IMO this is the equivalent of a 'GTFO' towards TBone - that his advice toward using or consulting with an attorney is only appropriate where Latin consulates are involved.

As devil's advocate (and not to appear to be attacking Gary) I have seen TBone several times name his attorney in threads. Personally I think this information is better conveyed in a PM.

There are also times when a thread rambles off course because a couple of people decide to argue a 'finer point'. I recall in 'arguments' over numerous finer points with a particular member, the general concensus was that such discussions did not contribute to the well-being of the site - that it creates an unfriendly atmosphere.

There are also times where the discussion between members in a thread starts to border on illegal behavior or behaviors that could be detrimental to the status of aliens. These discussions IMO are detrimental to the well-being of the site.

Moderating in the upper forums should be different than Off-Topic. Free-for-alls should not be tolerated under the guise of 'adult conversation' or 'free speech'. IMO that same sort of moderation should be performed in the Regional Forums in regards to questions about the immigration process.

Edited July 27, 2009 by rebeccajo

[baron555 934]

The following is just my opinion.

I think a lot of the bad behavior seen on many threads is actually brought on by the moderators themselves. I am on a lot of different forums, ranging on many different topics, and except for one, none of these other forums allow Off Topic discussion.

I am of the belief that since you allow such discussions that take place in that thread it just spills over to other threads. If it is not Immigration related, why allow it? It serves no useful purpose, Immigration-wise.

Also allowing anomynous posters to just blaze away only attracts more of the same.

I will admit, VJ is the only forum that is heavily moderated and many times threads being locked are for good reasons.

[mox 298]

RJ, it's ironic that you choose to weigh in on the "lock it if it goes off-topic" side, since a large majority of your posts would never have been posted if your suggestion were to become letter of the law. I'm not taking a swipe at you, I'm just saying that you've had a hell of a lot to say that would never have been said if you were practicing the type of moderation you're advocating.

I'm not disagreeing that the topic was rapidly unwinding into eventual unhelpfulness. But all it really needed was someone to come along and gently nudge things back on track. Sometimes people just need to get an idea out of their system. Sometimes that devolves into a pissing contest. But in my experience, people eventually run out of piss. At that point they either just stop of their own accord, or with the assistance of a nudge. Rarely is there a reason to lock down an entire thread. We empower the OP to decide if they want their own threads locked or not, we should likewise empower them to allow it to stay open, and that should be the default course of action. And in that vein, I think the OP bears some responsibility to keep up on topics they start. If they're not going to help "moderate" the discussions they start, then they really have nobody to blame but themselves for it drifting off-topic.

[baron555 934]

I think the OP bears some responsibility to keep up on topics they start. If they're not going to help "moderate" the discussions they start, then they really have nobody to blame but themselves for it drifting off-topic.

Mox you are right on with this comment. Many OPs just don't give enough information, unless they are purposefully trolling. And then folks who really want to help start making assumptions and this is where many of these threads take off on a tangent.

Also many OPs start threads that are by nature full of emotion and then those take off. Yes the OPs should bear some responsibility for a thread taking off. Maybe the Mods ought to hold them accountable in some manner.

[nowhereman 1]

When a topic goes horribly off course and evolves into a pissing contest it should be closed IMO. At that point everyone has put in their two cents & a respectful debate is pretty much impossible. Now a moderator is much like a ref in a boxing match... if he/she is starts to see low blows they should warn & deduct points before they disqualify one or both of the boxers. My point is if the moderator can catch the problem early they may be able to get the thread back on topic vs. stopping the fight (thread) prematurely.

[mox 298]

Also many OPs start threads that are by nature full of emotion and then those take off. Yes the OPs should bear some responsibility for a thread taking off. Maybe the Mods ought to hold them accountable in some manner.

I think this would be a little too heavy-handed. It's unfortunate when an OP leaves a topic to go off on its own instead of continuing to participate, but hopefully it helps that member to understand that they're going to get as much out of a thread as they put into it. If the topic drifts and the OP offers no further input, then we just need to assume that the OP's question was answered to their satisfaction IMHO.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

I would have to concur with mox. and no, it is nothing personal vs. the mods: I think their job totally svcks and it's hard to keep up. However, while some threads that are just getting heated up are locked without much warning; others that have all the potential to becomes a huge huge flaming zone are let run their unhappy course. Not cool.

[rebeccajo 14]

RJ, it's ironic that you choose to weigh in on the "lock it if it goes off-topic" side, since a large majority of your posts would never have been posted if your suggestion were to become letter of the law. I'm not taking a swipe at you, I'm just saying that you've had a hell of a lot to say that would never have been said if you were practicing the type of moderation you're advocating.

Did I say 'lock it if it goes off-topic'? I don't believe I said that at all.

Edited July 27, 2009 by rebeccajo

[TBoneTX 45,266]

It was I who requested of the moderators that the thread be locked. My rationale was that the thread was completely off course on the basis of unfounded speculation, and that the post immediately before my last one was patronizing. The Moderatrix (who in my firm opinion has shown unparalleled discretion in every instance of her actions of which I am aware) concurred with my reasoning and added the fact that the OP had "only a few hours" to react and either had what he needed by then or didn't. To my mind, the thread had run its course temporally and contextually, and perhaps others also agree.

there are times where a particular member may be on a 'crusade' in a thread, and the 'crusade' is against the well-being of the site. This has been pointed out to Gary many times and yet he continues.

Si, man... and, more alarming to me than any particular post is what would happen if every VJ member were to follow every bit of his advice, without the downsides also being presented.

Gary reached the 'boiling point' with TBone when he mentioned TBone should keep himself to the Latin American forums. IMO this is the equivalent of a 'GTFO' towards TBone - that his advice toward using or consulting with an attorney is only appropriate where Latin consulates are involved.

Si, man (thank you, RJ), and I restrained myself from retorting that I do not wish to be patted on the head like a wayward child and be superciliously banished to a distant sandbox by the self-appointed human embodiment of the nether orifice of a donkey. That would have been more inflammatory than giving a moderator the chance to quench a fire that was about to erupt (or which already had).

I have seen TBone several times name his attorney in threads. Personally I think this information is better conveyed in a PM.

I have indeed done this, in both venues, and in what I believe to be strict conformance with the VJ TOS.

In summary, and certainly without meaning to disrespect the opinions of my amigo Mox, I believe that the locking of this thread was prudent, and I eminently trust the judgment of the involved Moderatrix in all circumstances.

Edited July 27, 2009 by TBoneTX