School cuts hit parents' pockets: Teachers, too, spending more of own money as districts face tight budgets

[HAL 9000 96]

I spent 3 months teaching public high school, and I couldn't cut it. I could make twice as much money doing something else and not be sh!t upon all day by delinquents, so when I got offered a job in the private sector, it was a no-brainer. As for discipline in the classroom, why should that be teachers' responsibilities? Children are supposed to be in school to learn. It's the parents' job to make sure kids understand this.

You mean in your district you couldn't paddle parents?

Ugh, if only I could have. The parents were often worse than their kids - and so many in denial. Accusations that teachers were unfairly targeting their child, as if their kid couldn't possibly be the problem.

Too often I remember kids attending those PT conferences... and me having to embellish the good things so that the kids' rear ends wouldn't hurt as much. If it was a parenting issue I'd make sure to have the school counselor AND the assistant principal on hand. It was unfortunate but on a couple of occasions child and family services had to be called.

[Heracles 417]

IMO there's no need for upper level 'managers' and superintendents to be making the outrageous salaries they make to 'run' their districts into the ground. Teachers deserve that kind of money, not the bureaucrats.

True. The bureaucrats are the killer. One admin has the salary of 3-4 teachers combined.

Well get rid of county based systems and switch to state run. Think of all the bureaucrats that would be fired.

[Heracles 417]

I'd love to get that classroom expenses breakdown. You mean a per pupil expense report?

And a teaching salary of 50K per annum. In FL that's around a step 17 (17 years of service) with a Bachelor's degree on a 10 month contract. Go lower with those salary expectations...

That's about what I make and I have 17 years experience and a masters. But, to be fair, that is about the national average. Just nowhere near the average in my state. I'm on the high end of the scale, BUT I can't get much higher, even with a PhD. I will NEVER make above 70K if I remain where I am and work until I die, even if I get a PhD

Teaching has the highest attrition rate of any degreed profession. Teachers are among the most unhealthy people in the world. That's not just coincidence. It is a VERY challenging job in the best of circumstances. Unfortunately, I don't know of any position that is in the best of circumstances, so you get the picture. Obviously there is a plus side, or people like me wouldn't have remained in the profession as long as we do.

Teaching is one of the most stressful jobs out there. That is not opinion but based on a journal I was reading regarding various professions and stress. Up there with police and ambulance workers.

For you to earn that with those qualifications is a bloody disgrace. As I said earlier, teachers start on $50K in Victoria, AUS. End result Australian schools perform very well in the international community. Of course they are state based and not county based so the costs saved are pumped back into the education system. They also have enacted something that dems here seem to hate. Every student is allocated x dollars per year from the state. Regardless of whether the student attends a public or private school, that funding is till allocated to the school they attend; that includes religious schools. After all it's our tax so why shouldn't we be able to use it anywhere you want to send our kids.

Also as I said in another thread. Two of my cousins are teachers for the state back in Melbourne, AUS. The recently bought their second house 5 minutes walk from the beach. The house costs well over $650K and was purchased using their teaching salary. That is unheard of here. I know a lot of teachers who live in another county or state as they cannot afford to live in the county they work in.

[GabiandVi 34]

As far as I am concerned, our schools have turned into a baby sitting service, and not a very good one at that. Had to spend hours with my step daughter, not only on school nights, but weekends of well going through the material they never covered in class. No discipline, if you kid is naughty, the parents are called in. If your kid goes AWOL, parents have to pay the penalty. Law requires all kids have to attend school, that also includes all the misfits, that alone is a major problem dumped on the parents.

I don't want to pick on you. I can understand your frustration, but I'm confused by some of what you are saying. We teachers can't win. We get blamed for the behavior of badly raised children. We get blamed if we don't contact the parents. We get blamed if we do. And we get blamed for the fact that the disruptive student is disrupting the learning of the fellow students, but we get blamed if the disruptive student is removed from class because then the disruptive student doesn't learn. Whose responsibility is it if the kid is naughty? What would you have the teacher do if not call the parent? We actually have very little recourse. Calling the parents is about it and that is usually totally ineffective because, as they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Don't you imagine your contempt for teachers rubs off on your child? And do you think that is conducive to her learning?

We are just inside the radius for no school bus service, so had to drive her in and and pick her up everyday, but that's my fault for not buying a home one block further west. Handiest door for me to use was by the teachers parking lot, wasn't suppose to use that, but screw them. Couldn't help but notice that parking lot was the last go be filled and the first to be emptied, three minutes after the bell rang, watch out, it was empty. She did start driving late in her junior year, but her car was vandalized, back to dropping her off and picking her up with none-deductible mileage, another way we get screwed. And what supplies? If a math class demanded a calculator, was a hundred and fifty bucks, had to buy one they required. And a class teaching math basics with a calculator? What do you do when the batteries run out or a new calculator hits the market? Not teaching sh!t.

I don't know what to tell you about bus service. I've never heard of that with a public school system. My district has to provide transportation to all students but a few who opt to go to a school out of their zone, and only a few of those. But as for math teachers not teaching because they are teaching with calculators, you have to consider the world we live in today. A hundred years ago, no teacher would have taught French using audio tapes of people speaking French. If in medical school, the university does not teach med students to use laser surgery devices, they aren't preparing their students for the world they will live in. Teaching has to keep up with technology. I know you mention computers below, and I'll get to that, but would you rather schools not use computers? Would you rather that all English compositions be hand written, because to consider using calculators evidence of lack of teaching, it is the same thing. As for you having to buy the materials, there are usually moneys to help you if you qualify. But if you want all materials to be supplied to all student, expect the cost of education to rise even further.

But one thing is very common, they always want more money, in practically a union free state, they have a very powerful teachers union, only followed by the state and city workers.

Practically every class is based on using a computer, could easily find the teachers are too lazy to write their own quizzes, could find not only those quizzes on the internet but the answers as well just like the UCS civics test. Was a bit more work, needed more than 60%, a 70% would only get you a D-, had to get at least 98% to get an A+, so work was still required. Kids don't even know how to use a pen or a pencil after graduating, but sure learn how to cheat. With English, could always find the best papers as a guide in this highly subjective subject. Wouldn't permit plagiarizing from a direct copy or paste, but was certainly a good guide for what that brainwashed teacher was looking for. And don't be too lazy not to use a spell or grammar checker if you wanted a good grade.

I'm not sure what your point is about using an exemplar nor about using spell check. The latter is the least a teacher should expect from a student who has access to a computer. Providing the former is just good teaching. Also, I don't think you are promoting plagiarism, but it sounds like you are. Again, I'm confused. And what do you mean about the teacher being brainwashed? Because the teacher provides an exemplar to help the student out, he/she is brainwashed? I don't get the connection. You must mean something more, but I can't address that because I don't know what you mean.

Teachers are so dumb with computers, had to hire an IT staff to keep these things going, more expense.

I don't know where to begin to explain this one. I would only ask what sort of business you are in and if there is not a department that takes care of your IT for you? I can't think of one business that has more than half a dozen computers and a server that doesn't have an IT department or that does not outsource this. Maybe your child's teachers are computer illiterate. I seriously doubt it if they've graduated from school in the last 10 years, but it is possible. But that probably wouldn't be much different from the rest of society. However, I know in my district this is one of the requirements to maintain certification and to get tenure.

Asking for more money is the only thing our schools are good for.

I know you have some legitimate arguments about the state of public education, but you, like a lot people I know who talk about this subject (including in my family), don't have a realistic idea of what actually goes on in a classroom. Most people seem to think because they've been on the other end of the desk that they know enough to pass judgement on teachers and the system, but it's not that easy. If you don't believe me, take a long term sub position, say a maternity leave of about 6 weeks. You'll get a better idea of your child's classroom than what your child tells you. Like my elementary principal told my parents, "We'll promise to believe only 1/10th of what your children tell us about you if you promise to believe only 1/2 of what they tell you about us." I'm not saying don't believe what your child says, but remember it has been filtered through an immature view of the world, the same view that makes them believe that when they aren't wearing the latest fashion everyone in the place is looking at them and laughing at them, and then it is colored by your pre-conceived notions. And that's if your child isn't playing you.

[Ban Hammer 13,395]

IMO there's no need for upper level 'managers' and superintendents to be making the outrageous salaries they make to 'run' their districts into the ground. Teachers deserve that kind of money, not the bureaucrats.

[KarenCee 3]

IMO there's no need for upper level 'managers' and superintendents to be making the outrageous salaries they make to 'run' their districts into the ground. Teachers deserve that kind of money, not the bureaucrats.

Wow...

Our superintendent in our SMALL rural county makes a hefty six figure salary...and his salary did not get cut and he doesn't have to take a three day furlough. I'm glad someone else sees what I've always felt was unfair.

[Ban Hammer 13,395]

IMO there's no need for upper level 'managers' and superintendents to be making the outrageous salaries they make to 'run' their districts into the ground. Teachers deserve that kind of money, not the bureaucrats.

Wow...

Our superintendent in our SMALL rural county makes a hefty six figure salary...and his salary did not get cut and he doesn't have to take a three day furlough. I'm glad someone else sees what I've always felt was unfair.

my mom was a teacher - master's in teaching, after 30 years as a teacher i made more money than she did.

i'm not real sure what those above the principle level make, but i'm sure it is way higher and has less stress than those in the classroom.

[HAL 9000 96]

IMO there's no need for upper level 'managers' and superintendents to be making the outrageous salaries they make to 'run' their districts into the ground. Teachers deserve that kind of money, not the bureaucrats.

Wow...

Our superintendent in our SMALL rural county makes a hefty six figure salary...and his salary did not get cut and he doesn't have to take a three day furlough. I'm glad someone else sees what I've always felt was unfair.

When I left Miami-Dade County schools the incoming sup was hired at $325K plus additional financial benefits in a district racked with debt due to NCLB. Pretty sickening.

[Heracles 417]

IMO there's no need for upper level 'managers' and superintendents to be making the outrageous salaries they make to 'run' their districts into the ground. Teachers deserve that kind of money, not the bureaucrats.

That is exactly who is earning it. From your zero qualification in education necessary elected school board to your duplicated bureaucratic red tape. The US has 3,140 counties. State of Illinois alone has 102 counties. Each one of those counties would have a school board, a superintendent, all of the county's support staff that determine curriculum etc and buildings they house these staff. Now can you imagine the savings if they went to a state based system like AUS and I believe Canada?

Lets assume it costs a district $5 million in annual administration costs. Therefore, 3,140 counties * $5 million works out to be: $15.7 Billion dollars spent annually in administration alone. Now amalgamate the school systems and even double the admin costs to ensure the one set of admin staff (per state) are paid well. 50 states * $10 mill = $500 million.

That is a saving of $15.2 billion dollars that could be pumped straight back into education. Keep in mind the figure of $5 million is a guess and realistically the costs to administer a school district would be much much higher.

With each country duplicating the task of the next county, smaller government is delivering a huge loss and waste to us the tax payer; we're simply not getting value for money in return for our investment (tax).

Edited July 27, 2009 by haza

[HAL 9000 96]

IMO there's no need for upper level 'managers' and superintendents to be making the outrageous salaries they make to 'run' their districts into the ground. Teachers deserve that kind of money, not the bureaucrats.

Wow...

Our superintendent in our SMALL rural county makes a hefty six figure salary...and his salary did not get cut and he doesn't have to take a three day furlough. I'm glad someone else sees what I've always felt was unfair.

my mom was a teacher - master's in teaching, after 30 years as a teacher i made more money than she did.

i'm not real sure what those above the principle level make, but i'm sure it is way higher and has less stress than those in the classroom.

From the number of times I saw our principal losing her voice... and from the number of times I saw the county management staff announcing exquisite luncheon events on Biscayne Bay's fancy restaurants... I think the difference is nearly as large as the difference between the poles.

[Heracles 417]

To prove my point about non-school based costs and their duplication. I had a little trouble finding the budget for Loudon county so I found Fairfax next door. They spend $110 million dollars on administration annually. Those costs are for one county.

[GabiandVi 34]

With each country duplicating the task of the next county, smaller government is delivering a huge loss and waste to us the tax payer; we're simply not getting value for money in return for our investment (tax).

Very true. We do need some sort of state agency that would oversee curriculum and testing, etc. However, there would still have to be district/county oversight. There are too many things that have to be dealt with on a more local level. A couple of small examples: busing routes including routes for early dismissals, handicapped access, activity buses, etc.; school closure due to weather or local emergencies; transfers; magnate programs; alternative programs; continuing education for teachers; etc. If I understand AUS's system according to my friends who are from there, each area still has a sort of school board. For example, my friends taught in a religious school. It was a very old, big name school, and it was under the state system. However, they had their own equivalent of a school board and their own equivalent of a union, just that school, not all religious schools or all schools in the area.

As for the state taking over, I'm not sure you would get much more value for the money. In my state, Louisiana, the state has taken over quite a few schools because they have been failing. Unfortunately, those schools are still failing. One big problem in Louisiana is that so many people put their children in private and, more often, parochial schools. This leaves a limited student pool for the public schools and, at the risk of being attacked for political incorrectness, students from lower-income families, who make up the majority of said student pool, on average do not perform as well academically as students from more affluent families. This is not just a curriculum issue, though that is a part of it. It's due to a lot of social factors over which the school, local, state, national, has little control. The local, state, and national agencies might have some control over these issues, but not the schools nor the teachers teaching the students day to day.

If we want to improve schools in America, it's going to take a lot more than just a change in governance. We are going to have to completely overhaul the system with an entirely new perspective in mind. Public schools exist so that we have an educated population. This is in everyone's best interest. We have to be less concerned about the right of every student to an education and more concerned with the right of the public to an educated student. We are going to have to start from the very basics, such as parenting, pre-natal nutrition, post-natal health screenings. Our goal of education can no longer be with the elitist idea that everyone should go to college. That if you don't go to college, you have failed. That the only jobs worth having require a college education. We are going to have to accept, as much as it kills me to admit it, that we need to focus as much if not more on socialization and morality in preschool than on the building blocks of education.

There, I've said too much.

[HAL 9000 96]

There, I've said too much.

Now you must be silenced.

[Heracles 417]

The private schools have a smaller version of school board but the state schools certainly do not have a US style school board, that is, one elected by the county allowing them to influence decisions governing a region's education. The Department of education manages the states schools and reports directly to the state minister of education, who is appointed by the governor (premier).

Quite a large percentage of people send their kids to private schools in Melbourne as they want access to better education and want them to learn about two mommies or being PC. Heck, a lot of kids that are not even Christian go to Christian schools for their high quality education. A number of my cousins went to private schools and their education cost their parents about $70K for K7 > 12. They're definitely much more refined and well mannered than a public school students.

Our goal of education can no longer be with the elitist idea that everyone should go to college. That if you don't go to college, you have failed. That the only jobs worth having require a college education. We are going to have to accept, as much as it kills me to admit it, that we need to focus as much if not more on socialization and morality in preschool than on the building blocks of education.

That attitude in America is definitely wronging people in this country. Half my cousins dropped out at 16 yet are well rounded successful individuals. In many cases wealthier and living a better life than those with Masters. It is wrong to push everyone to get into college and make them feel like a failure if they don't get in or want to do a trade. Peer pressure to attend college pigeonholes people who would be better at doing something else. Then again, college is a money machine for America. You cannot get into an Aus college based on sports scholarships or other shenanigans like that. It's all about grades. Now in terms of employment, candidates are considered on their experience and attitude rather than GPA alone or even degree. People are delusion if they think that someone who has good grades will automatically equate to success in the workplace.

But anyway, what motivation is there for kids to do well in school in America when they see rappers, actors and athletes earning millions for kicking a few balls around. Or Ryan Seacrest earning $45 million.

Edited July 27, 2009 by haza

[Niels Bohr 72]

To prove my point about non-school based costs and their duplication. I had a little trouble finding the budget for Loudon county so I found Fairfax next door. They spend $110 million dollars on administration annually. Those costs are for one county.

Wow. You are right, and I agree with you on this subject!

The common people need to take a few courses in what public policy is about or else there'll be massive duplication.