Morality

[justashooter 430]

What about all those Chinese relatives? Don't they count?

you know, they do. i was talking with my MIL the other night, and she is doing fine, but how could i forget to mention them?

my FIL is considered rich for a chinese businessman. he has 3 cars and a villa outside of luoyang. for reference, maybe 1% of chinese in henan province have access to a vehicle, but most are owned by businesses. most chinese families live in a 600-700 square foot apartment in a 6 story walk-up. the in-law's villa is about 2000 square feet, with an enclosed courtyard of about 2000 square. FIL makes sure wife's sister, her child and husband, and wife's brother are taken care of. they all, except for the 4 year old, have jobs, BTW.

health care in china is relatively inexpensive, but is available on a cash and carry basis, only. you can walk into a hospital with a chopped off hand and if you don't have money in the other they will throw you out. my chinese family has worked hard to acheive their station in society. they never get thrown out.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

What if was your sister's young son? Or your brother's? What would you say to them if they had no health insurance?

my 3 sisters, my brother, and i, have 17 children between us. they are from 3 to 25 years in age. they are all insured because we all have jobs and work for a living, including the kids over college age.

somehow my entire family does not have the problem you are talking about. 22 of us, + 5 spouses = 27 people in my immediate family, and nobody uninsured. how the hell did that happen? oh yeah, i said that we all have jobs.

What a concept!

[justashooter 430]

And for those adult children over the age of 19, who are no longer covered by the parent's insurance, what would you say if one of them has a heart defect? All kidding aside. Hypothetically, what would tell them?

kids are covered until they finish school, up to the age of 24 according to the policy i have. after school they get a job.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess its a good thing that we're in an economic boom, and how noone anywhere (ever) gets laid off.

[Peikko 1,575]

What about all those Chinese relatives? Don't they count?

you know, they do. i was talking with my MIL the other night, and she is doing fine, but how could i forget to mention them?

my FIL is considered rich for a chinese businessman. he has 3 cars and a villa outside of luoyang. for reference, maybe 1% of chinese in henan province have access to a vehicle, but most are owned by businesses. most chinese families live in a 600-700 square foot apartment in a 6 story walk-up. the in-law's villa is about 2000 square feet, with an enclosed courtyard of about 2000 square. FIL makes sure wife's sister, her child and husband, and wife's brother are taken care of. they all, except for the 4 year old, have jobs, BTW.

health care in china is relatively inexpensive, but is available on a cash and carry basis, only. you can walk into a hospital with a chopped off hand and if you don't have money in the other they will throw you out. my chinese family has worked hard to acheive their station in society. they never get thrown out.

Ah, I get you. Everyone who is poor deserves to be poor because they have done something/failed to do something that would give them a proper standard of living then?

I have no idea how you could 'forget about' your Chinese family, only you can answer that one.

Another thought, does the Chinese side of the family have any skeletons? You know, rogue family members who no one talks about because they are peasants?

[Y's_habibitk 2]

I guess its a good thing that we're in an economic boom, and how noone anywhere (ever) gets laid off.

duh! and everyone makes enough to afford private policies if coverage is not offered at their job(free of charge of course)

[Peikko 1,575]

I guess its a good thing that we're in an economic boom, and how noone anywhere (ever) gets laid off.

Don't be silly, anyone who doesn't have a high paying job doesn't really want one.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

When you've seen one dollar, you've seen em all

[jundp 191]

I'd like to know what he'd really say to someone who is close to him in a situation like this? All sarcasm and kidding aside, I don't know how most people here haven't been personally affected by someone they know who is in dire need of care with no health insurance. For anyone who says 'no', I'd say they've either alienated themselves from their friends and family, or they've been a loner pretty much all their life.

Well, it's true, as I think Jenn said, that one doesn't have to have been personally affected to show empathy.

I have been relatively lucky my adult life because the jobs I've had allowed me to have health insurance...at least, the jobs I've had since I finished graduate school. Currently our health insurance is fully paid by P's employer, though were we to lose that for any reason we could use my company's health insurance at a very high cost (close to $700/month for 4 of us). Regardless, we are lucky.

Even so, some people don't have that luxury. And it's not because they don't work either. I know dozens of people who have jobs...good jobs, but either can't afford health insurance that is offered through their company or none is offered. And they make far more money than the max allowed to have state insurance.

I also have a dear friend who would have been destitute if not for the help of friends, family, and his church. His daughter died from neuroblastoma when she was 11. Diagnosed when she was 7. They had health insurance and he had a good job. Two in fact. However, many of the treatments were considered "experimental" and thus insurance would not pay. They couldn't switch insurance companies because the child's cancer was seen as a pre-existing condition and wouldn't have been covered for 6 months. That's a long time when your child has cancer. They struggled and in the end his wife had to leave her job so she could help care for their daughter and their other children. They are still paying off the medical bills.

I have a good job but I don't make a ton of money. Now it's my choice to be in the profession I am in, knowing that the payoff won't be huge financially. But what about people who are just on that cusp of making too much money/not making enough for healthcare?

I still say healthcare should be a basic right, not a privilege.

[Ban Hammer 13,678]

life is a ####### shoot. he rolled snake eyes.

What does that mean?

It means that if you are blessed with good health then you deserve to live a long and prosperous life. Should you be born with any kind of disability, or potential therefore, you either pay even if you have no money or you suffer because of the disability. That's the hand god dealt you

I'd have preferred if you let him explain his own idiom, but now that you've taken the time to type that out.... Charles, is that an accurate assessment? If not, please explain.

He never explains anything, just posts inanities. You are in for a long wait.

this gem from someone who still hasn't answered about where someone's personal space is on the internet

I already answered it, Charlie boy. I actually thought you understood what I posted. Clearly I gave you more credit than was warranted.

you should enter politics, you give the best non-answers and think you've accomplished the goal.

[LaL 418]

I guess its a good thing that we're in an economic boom, and how noone anywhere (ever) gets laid off.

duh! and everyone makes enough to afford private policies if coverage is not offered at their job(free of charge of course)

I am still confused why you would say one gets medicare instantly if disabled when you even said yourself it can take years.

[Amby 490]

I retract my statement

Will you tell a patient that "there would be no reason for him to live"?

LaL would you want to live like that? Have you ever been to a nursing home? Sitting in a nursing home as a vegetable and not even knowing what's going on around you isn't a life. It's a place you go while waiting to die because no one else can take care of you anymore.

So there would be no reason for him to live, in your opinion (assuming based on your question above).

Those who get to know me instead of try to bait me know that I had a brother who was severely mentally and physically handicapped. He was basically a "vegetable". He was always severely handicapped, but it wasn't until he was about 9 or 10 when he actually got to the point where he couldn't function at all. He was constantly in pain. He couldn't walk, talk, or even eat. He had a feeding tube and relied on iv medications on a daily basis. He died when he was 12. I would not wish that life upon anyone. Not for them or for one of their family members to have to deal with. If Jim was going to be a vegetable I think C would be the best option. If he wasn't going to be a vegetable then I choose A. Ultimately, it is NOT my decision or your decision what happens to Jim. Jim has to decide what he thinks is best for him and for his family.

PS. We all agree that my brother had absolutely no value to anyone besides us. He had nothing to offer to anyone. That didn't make us love him any less.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Amby

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'd like to know what he'd really say to someone who is close to him in a situation like this? All sarcasm and kidding aside, I don't know how most people here haven't been personally affected by someone they know who is in dire need of care with no health insurance. For anyone who says 'no', I'd say they've either alienated themselves from their friends and family, or they've been a loner pretty much all their life.

Well, it's true, as I think Jenn said, that one doesn't have to have been personally affected to show empathy.

I have been relatively lucky my adult life because the jobs I've had allowed me to have health insurance...at least, the jobs I've had since I finished graduate school. Currently our health insurance is fully paid by P's employer, though were we to lose that for any reason we could use my company's health insurance at a very high cost (close to $700/month for 4 of us). Regardless, we are lucky.

Even so, some people don't have that luxury. And it's not because they don't work either. I know dozens of people who have jobs...good jobs, but either can't afford health insurance that is offered through their company or none is offered. And they make far more money than the max allowed to have state insurance.

I also have a dear friend who would have been destitute if not for the help of friends, family, and his church. His daughter died from neuroblastoma when she was 11. Diagnosed when she was 7. They had health insurance and he had a good job. Two in fact. However, many of the treatments were considered "experimental" and thus insurance would not pay. They couldn't switch insurance companies because the child's cancer was seen as a pre-existing condition and wouldn't have been covered for 6 months. That's a long time when your child has cancer. They struggled and in the end his wife had to leave her job so she could help care for their daughter and their other children. They are still paying off the medical bills.

I have a good job but I don't make a ton of money. Now it's my choice to be in the profession I am in, knowing that the payoff won't be huge financially. But what about people who are just on that cusp of making too much money/not making enough for healthcare?

I still say healthcare should be a basic right, not a privilege.

I cannot imagine what your friend went through.

I poorly worded that post. I meant that most of us who've lived a few years have known a family member or a friend who was devastated by illness. It's not too much a stretch of the imagination to think of what their situation would have been like without health insurance and for many of us, we don't have to imagine that scenario because we've seen it firsthand.

Placing a condition of our empathy based on whether we believe that friend or family member could have gotten insurance but didn't won't heal them or bring them back to life if they end up dying.

[jundp 191]

I have to agree about the vegetable state. I have a living will that states DNR in cases of brain death. I think everyone should have a living will that explicitly states their wishes so that their spouse/children/parents/etc do not have to make that decision.

[LaL 418]

I retract my statement

Will you tell a patient that "there would be no reason for him to live"?

LaL would you want to live like that? Have you ever been to a nursing home? Sitting in a nursing home as a vegetable and not even knowing what's going on around you isn't a life. It's a place you go while waiting to die because no one else can take care of you anymore.

So there would be no reason for him to live, in your opinion (assuming based on your question above).

Those who get to know me instead of try to bait me know that I had a brother who was severely mentally and physically handicapped. He was basically a "vegetable". He was always severely handicapped, but it wasn't until he was about 9 or 10 when he actually got to the point where he couldn't function at all. He was constantly in pain. He couldn't walk, talk, or even eat. He had a feeding tube and relied on iv medications on a daily basis. He died when he was 12. I would not wish that life upon anyone. Not for them or for one of their family members to have to deal with. If Jim was going to be a vegetable I think C would be the best option. If he wasn't going to be a vegetable then I choose A. Ultimately, it is NOT my decision or your decision what happens to Jim. Jim has to decide what he thinks is best for him and for his family.

PS. We all agree that my brother had absolutely no value to anyone besides us. He had nothing to offer to anyone. That didn't make us love him any less.

I am sorry your family had to endure that. I am not baiting you - I don't think its any secret that I find you pretty well lacking in empathy for those less fortunate physically or otherwise - something I find very curious for you in your chosen educational path. That is the only reason I asked the questions I asked of you (would you, if you become a doctor, say such things, etc. ). I would never ever want to seek the attention of a doctor who felt someone does not have a reason to live.

To answer your previous question, no *I* would not want to live like that.

Edited July 22, 2009 by LaL