Armed OC Citizen Shoots Robber in the Act

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

Well, if you carry a gun and are in the right place at the right time..you can be!

but that won't happen with some, they dislike guns and think their mouth can talk themselves out of anything anywhere.

Maybe the bad guys will fall asleep listening to the endless litany of apologies and self-effacing concessions

and explanations of how "certain assumptions" and "dubious prejudgements" are all wrong.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

First off, I'll admit openly that I don't believe in gun ownership the way the USA does.

Second, I'm very happy things in this case turned out the way they did - no-one dead, bad guy caught, end of story.

The problem I have is this:

Imagine the next time some low-life scumbag wants to pull off a robbery like this one. He goes into the store, pulls his gun and proceeds with his little plan. Good citizen carrying firearm makes his move, justified in protecting the lives of the shopkeeper and other customers. Everything just like it is in this case.

Except that two or three people before our known bad guy enters the sore, his unknown accomplice entered to watch Bad Guy's back and keep an eye out for Mr.Good Citizen. As soon as Mr.Good Citizen goes for his piece, Bad Guy 2 shoots him. If it's with a handgun, he'll probably shoot him more than once. If he has an SMG, we're into a whole different world of hurt, for Mr.Good Citizen and the rest of the customers.

You see, the thing I don't like is that something like this doesn't deter the Bad Guys out there, they just get bigger guns and better plans.

And more people end up dead because of it.

That's the problem I have with a lot of this stuff - its not really people carrying guns (that's a totally different debate), its that cases like this are often used to trump up the idea that the appropriate response to any similar situation is to start shooting.

Obviously there are a lot of problems with trying to second guess someone's decision making in a tense situation like with nothing more than speculation and a second hand account of the events. But certainly there are examples of where situations have been made worse by have-a-go heroes looking to confront armed criminals.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Private Pike

[justashooter 430]

1.) First off, I'll admit openly that I don't believe in gun ownership the way the USA does.

2.) Second, I'm very happy things in this case turned out the way they did - no-one dead, bad guy caught, end of story.

The problem I have is this:

3.) Imagine the next time some low-life scumbag wants to pull off a robbery like this one. He goes into the store, pulls his gun and proceeds with his little plan. Good citizen carrying firearm makes his move, justified in protecting the lives of the shopkeeper and other customers. Everything just like it is in this case.

Except that two or three people before our known bad guy enters the sore, his unknown accomplice entered to watch Bad Guy's back and keep an eye out for Mr.Good Citizen. As soon as Mr.Good Citizen goes for his piece, Bad Guy 2 shoots him. If it's with a handgun, he'll probably shoot him more than once.

4.) If he has an SMG, we're into a whole different world of hurt, for Mr.Good Citizen and the rest of the customers.

5.) You see, the thing I don't like is that something like this doesn't deter the Bad Guys out there, they just get bigger guns and better plans.

And more people end up dead because of it.

1.) then move to china, or some other socialist country where you have no civil rights. write back to us about how great it is.

2.) great ending

3.) low life scumbags aren't this sophisticated. they just don't organise that way. this kind of thing just doesn't happen, or it would be in the news. as much as the news wants to print it, it just doesn't happen.

4.) SMG don't just grow on trees. they cost about $5,00 and up to legally procure, and require a federal liscense to possess. illegal SMG must be imported from mexico, because the drug dealers there have the corner on the market, having received them from the mexican military, the venezuelans, and the chinese.

nobody uses an SMG in crime in the US. if they did, it would be all over the front page. the last guy to use a registered machine gun in criminal act was a cop who shot his estranged wife more than 10 years ago with a department gun.

5.) an armed populace is a deterrent to crime. criminals don't wanna die, either. they are lazy. they always go for the low hanging fruit. they prefer their victims unarmed and will not enter houses occupied by known gun owners. interview a bunch of convicts and you will find this to be true. 60 minutes did such interviews and aired a show on this subject 20 years ago, and it's been done several times since. criminals will avoid risk, and go for the sure thing.

[justashooter 430]

That's the problem I have with a lot of this stuff - its not really people carrying guns (that's a totally different debate), its that cases like this are often used to trump up the idea that the appropriate response to any similar situation is to start shooting.

Obviously there are a lot of problems with trying to second guess someone's decision making in a tense situation like with nothing more than speculation and a second hand account of the events. But certainly there are examples of where situations have been made worse by have-a-go heroes looking to confront armed criminals.

you must be insane.

the criminal had already shot the clerk 6 times as he hid behind the counter, and was reloading after having told everyone else he was gonna kill them, too, and lining them up against a wall. they were stupid to line up for a guy with an empty gun and should have jumped him themselves (but that's another issue). the only outcome to the situation other than this a-hole being shot by the "lone ranger" was the death of 6 other people.

"i don't know, let's just stand here while he shoots us one by one. maybe he'll get tired of it, or have remorse after the 3rd guy, or maybe the hand of god will reach out and save us"

magical thinking will get you dead in the real world, buddy. living in new jersey i would have though you'd understand.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That's the problem I have with a lot of this stuff - its not really people carrying guns (that's a totally different debate), its that cases like this are often used to trump up the idea that the appropriate response to any similar situation is to start shooting.

Obviously there are a lot of problems with trying to second guess someone's decision making in a tense situation like with nothing more than speculation and a second hand account of the events. But certainly there are examples of where situations have been made worse by have-a-go heroes looking to confront armed criminals.

you must be insane.

the criminal had already shot the clerk 6 times as he hid behind the counter, and was reloading after having told everyone else he was gonna kill them, too, and lining them up against a wall. they were stupid to line up for a guy with an empty gun and should have jumped him themselves (but that's another issue). the only outcome to the situation other than this a-hole being shot by the "lone ranger" was the death of 6 other people.

"i don't know, let's just stand here while he shoots us one by one. maybe he'll get tired of it, or have remorse after the 3rd guy, or maybe the hand of god will reach out and save us"

magical thinking will get you dead in the real world, buddy. living in new jersey i would have though you'd understand.

Wow you got all that from what I wrote - how creative, even more so that it has absolutely no connection to what I was thinking, let alone what I put into words.

I do wonder why you feel so threatened by people who don't subscribe to your gung ho Rambo rhetoric. After all, wasn't it a few months ago you were volunteering to set yourself up as a border guard so you could machine gun Mexicans trying to cross the border?

I think you've cornered the market on ridiculous...

[Peikko 1,575]

Exactly what sort of a Christian are you Danno?

To answer your question, no, I derive no pleasure/satisfaction from the suffering of others - be they criminals or innocent bystanders.

You see, it's the "Little girl syndrome".

LITTLE GIRL: I don't want ANYONE to get hurt.

Let's see if Ole Pike is with you on this one..... (as if we have to ask).

As for my brand of Christianity, I guess it's "old school"

That would be the brand where 'compassion' doesn't figure to strongly eh?

You may call me whatever names you want, but please try to get it right. I said, quite clearly that I do not take pleasure in such outcomes.

[justashooter 430]

I do wonder why you feel so threatened by people who don't subscribe to your gung ho Rambo rhetoric. After all, wasn't it a few months ago you were volunteering to set yourself up as a border guard so you could machine gun Mexicans trying to cross the border?

I think you've cornered the market on ridiculous...

i am not personally threatened by your magical thinking, except when you vote. others are threatened, though, every time you open your mouth or put your fingers to the keyboard. it's people like you that have cornered the market on stupidity, and taught it to young people across America.

look at virginia tech to see the damage you've done, and the lives that ended because of people like you. teaching children for a generation that the appropriate response to a threat was to hide under a desk and hope that it would go away resulted in 33 unnecessary deaths. if these children had been taught to defend themselves and to respond to aggression with counter-aggression, the vast majority of them would be graduating from college this summer, getting married, buying houses, finding jobs, entering graduate school, etc.

this is the result of the pansification of America the left has so vehemently pushed for. congratulations. America's children are slaughtered, and the blood is on your hands.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I do wonder why you feel so threatened by people who don't subscribe to your gung ho Rambo rhetoric. After all, wasn't it a few months ago you were volunteering to set yourself up as a border guard so you could machine gun Mexicans trying to cross the border?

I think you've cornered the market on ridiculous...

i am not personally threatened by your magical thinking, except when you vote. others are threatened, though, every time you open your mouth or put your fingers to the keyboard. it's people like you that have cornered the market on stupidity, and taught it to young people across America.

look at virginia tech to see the damage you've done, and the lives that ended because of people like you. teaching children for a generation that the appropriate response to a threat was to hide under a desk and hope that it would go away resulted in 33 unnecessary deaths. if these children had been taught to defend themselves and to respond to aggression with counter-aggression, the vast majority of them would be graduating from college this summer, getting married, buying houses, finding jobs, entering graduate school, etc.

this is the result of the pansification of America the left has so vehemently pushed for. congratulations. America's children are slaughtered, and the blood is on your hands.

Guess we can't all be gun toting wacko's who believe our streets teem with those dying to be shot, and Russian and Chinese soldiers...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I do wonder why you feel so threatened by people who don't subscribe to your gung ho Rambo rhetoric. After all, wasn't it a few months ago you were volunteering to set yourself up as a border guard so you could machine gun Mexicans trying to cross the border?

I think you've cornered the market on ridiculous...

i am not personally threatened by your magical thinking, except when you vote. others are threatened, though, every time you open your mouth or put your fingers to the keyboard. it's people like you that have cornered the market on stupidity, and taught it to young people across America.

look at virginia tech to see the damage you've done, and the lives that ended because of people like you. teaching children for a generation that the appropriate response to a threat was to hide under a desk and hope that it would go away resulted in 33 unnecessary deaths. if these children had been taught to defend themselves and to respond to aggression with counter-aggression, the vast majority of them would be graduating from college this summer, getting married, buying houses, finding jobs, entering graduate school, etc.

this is the result of the pansification of America the left has so vehemently pushed for. congratulations. America's children are slaughtered, and the blood is on your hands.

Of course you're threatened - if you weren't you wouldn't be making this spurious case that I (a non-citizen) am somehow responsible for mass murder and the "pansification of America"

That's about as reasonable an assertion as if I were to say (as some of the more outrageous commentators said) that YOU, by virtue of being an American Citizen are responsible by proxy for the US foreign policies that created resentment in the Arab world and gave rise to 9/11.

I can play that game only too well Mr Shooter, if only to illustrate how flawed the reasoning is.

[justashooter 430]

Guess we can't all be gun toting wacko's who believe our streets teem with those dying to be shot, and Russian and Chinese soldiers...

if someone points a gun at you after you've already given them your wallet and your watch, what will you do? if someone kills your child in front of you after they rape your wife at gunpoint what will you do? you will probably beg for mercy. you will probably be shot and die.

a handgun is not that big of a threat. 80-90% of people shot with handguns survive the experience if they get rapid medical response. people shot with a handgun do not just fall down and die like on TV. most have no immediate disability if shot with anything less than a 45. the FBI uniform crime statistics indicate that people who resist an attacker have a higher survival rate than people who submit do. they also have a lower injury rate. fighting back could save your life.

ridiculing someone who encourages others to fight back is just another way to victimise innocent people by discouraging them from taking control of their own destiny. does it feel good to victimise people? if it does, send me a PM and i'll recommend a good shrink.

[justashooter 430]

1.) Of course you're threatened - if you weren't you wouldn't be making this spurious case that I (a non-citizen) am somehow responsible for mass murder and the "pansification of America"

2.) That's about as reasonable an assertion as if I were to say (as some of the more outrageous commentators said) that YOU, by virtue of being an American Citizen are responsible by proxy for the US foreign policies that created resentment in the Arab world and gave rise to 9/11.

3.) I can play that game only too well Mr Shooter, if only to illustrate how flawed the reasoning is.

1.) surely you understand that it's your schema that i was speaking in reference to, and thereby every similar schema on this globe. i de-personalise your thoughts, and deal with them seperately. by extension, so with all similar thought. you are not evil as an individual. you simply have a maladaptive schema that is spreading like a disease as we speak. i am merely attempting to treat the infection.

2.) if you really believe that American policy caused resentment in the arab world, you are quite uninformed. the "arab world" is not some homogenous societal unit. it is a complex aggregation of diverse cultures and interests that has been affected by a multitude of policies and schools of thought. i had hoped you were not so simple as to believe what you just wrote.

3.) often i think this is all a game to you. sometimes it is to me, but in this case, i see lives at stake. teach people to cower in the face of aggression, and people outside this teaching will kill them like the dogs they appear to be. create an America that cowers, and watch the rest of the world destroy her, piece by piece.

at stake are the lives of individuals, and the life of a nation. it is not yours, which has already gone into surrender, so you care not to see her fail. rather, you are comforted to see her follow the same path your own nation has chosen, and which causes you such hidden shame.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

1.) Of course you're threatened - if you weren't you wouldn't be making this spurious case that I (a non-citizen) am somehow responsible for mass murder and the "pansification of America"

2.) That's about as reasonable an assertion as if I were to say (as some of the more outrageous commentators said) that YOU, by virtue of being an American Citizen are responsible by proxy for the US foreign policies that created resentment in the Arab world and gave rise to 9/11.

3.) I can play that game only too well Mr Shooter, if only to illustrate how flawed the reasoning is.

1.) surely you understand that it's your schema that i was speaking in reference to, and thereby every similar schema on this globe. i de-personalise your thoughts, and deal with them seperately. by extension, so with all similar thought. you are not evil as an individual. you simply have a maladaptive schema that is spreading like a disease as we speak. i am merely attempting to treat the infection.

2.) if you really believe that American policy caused resentment in the arab world, you are quite uninformed. the "arab world" is not some homogenous societal unit. it is a complex aggregation of diverse cultures and interests that has been affected by a multitude of policies and schools of thought. i had hoped you were not so simple as to believe what you just wrote.

3.) often i think this is all a game to you. sometimes it is to me, but in this case, i see lives at stake. teach people to cower in the face of aggression, and people outside this teaching will kill them like the dogs they appear to be. create an America that cowers, and watch the rest of the world destroy her, piece by piece.

at stake are the lives of individuals, and the life of a nation. it is not yours, which has already gone into surrender, so you care not to see her fail. rather, you are comforted to see her follow the same path your own nation has chosen, and which causes you such hidden shame.

What a bunch of utter #######.

I am no more responsible for Virginia Tech or Columbine than you are for 9/11. Twist it any way you want - what you wrote (and what you have just posted above) is for lack of a better term, fvcking nuts.

Yes Mr Shooter, you don't go off on flights of ridiculous exaggeration do you? Oh no, its all a scientific process of depersonalising thoughts and identifying maladaptive schema. Its not only pretentious, but also practically meaningless. The thing is shooter - I use big words too, and I know what they mean

But by all means feel free to use a few bigger ones - that way I might be dazzled into silence by your stunning vocabulary. Because I sure as hell am not being won over by the way you are stringing them together into OTT and hysterical arguments.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Private Pike

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

Guess we can't all be gun toting wacko's who believe our streets teem with those dying to be shot, and Russian and Chinese soldiers...

if someone points a gun at you after you've already given them your wallet and your watch, what will you do? if someone kills your child in front of you after they rape your wife at gunpoint what will you do? you will probably beg for mercy. you will probably be shot and die.

a handgun is not that big of a threat. 80-90% of people shot with handguns survive the experience if they get rapid medical response. people shot with a handgun do not just fall down and die like on TV. most have no immediate disability if shot with anything less than a 45. the FBI uniform crime statistics indicate that people who resist an attacker have a higher survival rate than people who submit do. they also have a lower injury rate. fighting back could save your life.

ridiculing someone who encourages others to fight back is just another way to victimise innocent people by discouraging them from taking control of their own destiny. does it feel good to victimise people? if it does, send me a PM and i'll recommend a good shrink.

in short, it's better to go out trying than lying down crying and dying.

[Peikko 1,575]

At stake is the America of the 1800's

It's sort of funny, but mostly it's pathetic because as Pooky and others have pointed out, it's this very line of thinking, that citizens should do the job more properly reserved for trained professionals, that has had a hand in creating this very violent culture that exists in pockets of America. Would that the rest of it remains outside this frontiersman thinking.

[natty bumppo 297]

At stake is the America of the 1800's

It's sort of funny, but mostly it's pathetic because as Pooky and others have pointed out, it's this very line of thinking, that citizens should do the job more properly reserved for trained professionals, that has had a hand in creating this very violent culture that exists in pockets of America. Would that the rest of it remains outside this frontiersman thinking.

the people should have waited for the trained professionals to arrive and save them?

think the trained professionals would have arrived before the criminal finished reloading? don't think so as it didn't happen.

what good would the trained professionals have done for the people after the criminal completed his task of eliminating them?

draw lines around the bodies and take pictures?