Safe amount of time

[doodlebugg 10]

sofiya I have read this over and over from you anytime someone wants to get "Islamically" married. Heck you even warned me about it right before I went to get married myself. I admire your tenacity but I have a question: your beef with those who only get married at a mosque and don't register it with the proper authorities is that the wife will have no rights when they get divorced, correct? If that is so, I believe I still don't have rights when I get divorced even though we went to the Ministry of Justice and did it all proper with the dude with the cigarette butt hangin' half out of his mouth pronouncing us married. I mean does the USA really recognize Egyptian law? Not that it matters since all is good in the hood but still, it seems that if your argument is sincere you should be telling these women to do a fiance visa and get married here in the US where everything would hold up in a US court of law.

Just my two cents but then I don't know nuttin' bout nuttin'.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

sofiya I have read this over and over from you anytime someone wants to get "Islamically" married. Heck you even warned me about it right before I went to get married myself. I admire your tenacity but I have a question: your beef with those who only get married at a mosque and don't register it with the proper authorities is that the wife will have no rights when they get divorced, correct? If that is so, I believe I still don't have rights when I get divorced even though we went to the Ministry of Justice and did it all proper with the dude with the cigarette butt hangin' half out of his mouth pronouncing us married. I mean does the USA really recognize Egyptian law? Not that it matters since all is good in the hood but still, it seems that if your argument is sincere you should be telling these women to do a fiance visa and get married here in the US where everything would hold up in a US court of law.

Just my two cents but then I don't know nuttin' bout nuttin'.

I'm commenting on what she says she will do, sis. She hasn't mentioned K1, and so I didn't either.

Our rights don't begin or end on earth, Brigit. The fact that men or governments may fail in their responsibilities to us is no excuse for any of us to willfully fail to uphold our responsibility to Allah. Our rights under Islam are not granted by men nor by governments, nor do they expire upon death. So it is best to take a long-term view for the sake of your soul. Urfi is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right.

What I have a "beef" with is the due diligence women here will do to make sure they don't run afoul of US law or come across as less than honest before a government bureaucrat. Yet, they are eager to distort and disrepect Islam to spend face time with some dubious Muslim guy. I guess I don't understand how that comes about.

Discouraging Muslims from zina is a moral duty, and I offer that with the utmost sincerity. It is the least we can do for Him with all He does for us. When we move toward God, He will run more than halfway toward us. His promise to us is eternal and not to be doubted. Doing well by Him allows us, on the Day of Judgment, to honestly say that we did our best not to disrespect His law despite our own limitations and the limitations of those we encountered in our day to day dealings. i am the only person I can control, but reminding my brothers and sisters of their obligations to the deen serves us both in the long run.

I have no control over what other Muslims do. Tammy will do as she pleases, but I know I have done my duty to her and others by warning against urfi.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

VW, my point was..... not legally registering your marriage doesnt negate the marriage in any major religion. It's not exclusive to rural villages in muslim countries. If I go get married by a priest/pastor in a church..i am in fact married in the eyes of my God. thats all. I dont know enough about islam to say anything about orfi marriages except my husband wouldnt allow it for us and thinks its just "cheating" I'll let you do all the explaining on this, cuzz you kinda rock at it

Islam is a major religion, and it requires legality. Someone please help me understand how the idea got started that it doesn't.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Question: if the only purpose of an orfi marriage is having sex, then why do it? You can have sex before you get married - not islamically, of course. But if the orfi marriage is not the right way to do it, then why not go all out and ignore the marriage requirement for sex altogether? To me it seems that those who do get orfi marriages do truly believe that it allows them to have sex. They might be wrong, islamically speaking, but ignorance isn't the same as having dishonorable intentions.

These can only be people who haven't read a Quran. No excuse for that, if you're Muslim.

But my point is - say they've read the Quran, know an orfi marriage is "wrong", but choose to get one anyway. Why would they do it when they could just have sex? If they want to ignore the Quran, then what's the purpose of this "half-assed" in-between marriage? Is it haram, but not as bad as having sex out of marriage entirely? I just don't get why you would do it - so hotels will allow you to have a room together?

Honey, you and I are both stumped by this. In my mind, it ranks right up there with a Muslim man can marry multiple women because he just feels like it, divorce by text message, beating your wife is Islamic, stoning women for zina, and Muslimas will stray from Islam if they don't marry a Muslim man. Each one of those is a concoction to that expands the allowances for men at the expense of women, and that is clearly against God.

I'm waiting for someone to enlighten us, insha'allah.

[CnT4ever 1]

Hmm...I guess half my husband's family is living in sin then. They have all been married and most not registered in their country. Their imams seem to think it's fine. What about refugees? Places where Muslims live but are not considered legal? The afghans crossing the border into Pakistan? The kuwaiti "bidoons" that have no citizenship? Probably many other tribes and nomadic peoples that don't settle anywhere? Are they all living un-Islamically too?

Soffiya, you preach alot, and some of it is very intellegent and well versed...however, some of your views are not in accordance to what a majority of Muslims believe. Are you saying they are all wrong? Where do you get your ideology from? Do you follow a different sect?

You also seem to be confusing non-registered marriages with temporary marriages. They are not one in the same. While I'm sure, and my husband tells me, that some men WILL use the orfi as a "have sex without sin" card, that is wrong...but that is because the intentions were wrong. For those, like I mentioned above, it would be perfectly allowable for them. THey do marry with the intention of forever. I definitely agree with you that American women should DEMAND to be married legally so that they are not dumped once the guy has his fun and is finished with her. I just don't think it's correct to say ALL people not registered are commiting a sin. Like Lisa, I believe it's legit in God's eyes.

I know one Muslim lady that is married to a man that was already legally married. He needed another wife (as his first wife was old, not strong enough to be a full wife to him, and he was still "strong")...so he married his second wife and still kept his first one (as he considered it a shame and unacceptable to leave or divorce the woman who gave him 8 kids). He spends an equal amount of time with both and is wealthy enough to afford the upkeep of both (neither woman works). Both women are accepting of this arrangement. The second wife, the woman I know, is a divorcee with grown kids of her own. This wasn't some hot young girl he went and married for fun. He sincerely needed another companion, while still wanting to take care of the first. So he married the second woman in a religious marriage only. He has a right to 4 wives, right? So are you saying they live in sin?

I just think your argument has some loopholes. If you want, you can either ignore my post or maybe you will have a reply that can address some of my questions. Either way, I respect and agree with alot of what you wrote. Most of it, in fact.

As for Tammy, I still wish you luck and hope you don't get scammed again.

[Ayman and Yasmina 0]

Actually in the Quran your suppose to follow the law of the land you live on..So yes if your a bedowin and there is no registry then Orfi marriage is ok...In arabic the saying is marriage is in the announcing of it..Marriage is not a secret nor should it ever be a secret..Even if its a second wife the first wife is to be asked!

So actually if he lives in Alex then he is suppose to follow the law and marry you legally...Its supposed to be announced to his family and there needs to be witnesses..Arab men are sweet talkers and can get most women to do what they want no matter right or wrong thats why I think advice is pointless in this thread...And believe me if you have a degree there is plenty of opportunity in Egypt...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

quote]Hmm...I guess half my husband's family is living in sin then. They have all been married and most not registered in their country. Their imams seem to think it's fine. What about refugees? Places where Muslims live but are not considered legal? The afghans crossing the border into Pakistan? The kuwaiti "bidoons" that have no citizenship? Probably many other tribes and nomadic peoples that don't settle anywhere? Are they all living un-Islamically too?

Imams are not legal authorities. Most of them have little to no knowledge of Islamic law. Besides, there are many things that Muslims do that have not one thing to do with Islam. I come from a people who were landless wanderers, but they didn't forsake or Lord in the way they married. Muslims are to follow the law of the land in which they live. Imams should at least know that much.

Soffiya, you preach alot, and some of it is very intellegent and well versed...however, some of your views are not in accordance to what a majority of Muslims believe. Are you saying they are all wrong? Where do you get your ideology from? Do you follow a different sect?

I don't pretend to know what most Muslims believe. I do know what Allah tells us, and it's not to forgo His law for your own. Lots of Muslims are, unfortunately, extremely ignorant of their own faith and have let cultural practices override Islam itself. That is not to be encouraged for the universal ummah, and it is up to us to educate the uneducated as to the straight path. I try to do my part.

You also seem to be confusing non-registered marriages with temporary marriages. They are not one in the same. While I'm sure, and my husband tells me, that some men WILL use the orfi as a "have sex without sin" card, that is wrong...but that is because the intentions were wrong. For those, like I mentioned above, it would be perfectly allowable for them. THey do marry with the intention of forever. I definitely agree with you that American women should DEMAND to be married legally so that they are not dumped once the guy has his fun and is finished with her. I just don't think it's correct to say ALL people not registered are commiting a sin. Like Lisa, I believe it's legit in God's eyes.

I'm not confused. Unregistered marrige is not halal, so it is urfi and there is no divorce or property rights, or maintenance enforcable in fake marriage. Muslims can call it Islamic all they want, but that doesn't make it Islamic. Since urfi allows for the dumping of women without any recourse (since there is no legal marriage), then that, in and of itself, makes it haram.

I am not the arbitor of what is halal and what is not, Allah is. The information is available to all. God's eyes have nothing to do with this. It is a fantasy, a contrivance to avoid admitting sin. God's words are clear. He requires protections that are a blessing to us. Urfi and unregistered marriage is not a method of granting those protections. Muslims do what you what to do, but why insist on involving God in this bida? Doing that raises a dialogue about it, for no Muslim can be silent when a few boast of flauting the law with God's permission. That means the Islam being spread is tainted by Haram. I'm not going to be silent about that.

I know one Muslim lady that is married to a man that was already legally married. He needed another wife (as his first wife was old, not strong enough to be a full wife to him, and he was still "strong")...so he married his second wife and still kept his first one (as he considered it a shame and unacceptable to leave or divorce the woman who gave him 8 kids). He spends an equal amount of time with both and is wealthy enough to afford the upkeep of both (neither woman works). Both women are accepting of this arrangement. The second wife, the woman I know, is a divorcee with grown kids of her own. This wasn't some hot young girl he went and married for fun. He sincerely needed another companion, while still wanting to take care of the first. So he married the second woman in a religious marriage only. He has a right to 4 wives, right? So are you saying they live in sin?

Tell us where in the Quran or Sunnah of the Prophet this model is sanctioned? What Quran allows a man to marry a second wife because his first wife is old and weak? Can a Muslima do this when her husband becomes old and weak and not a full partner, or is this mercy only granting to men?

Our Nabi, the embodiment of proper practice, was married for 25 years to a woman 15 years his senior. He didn't marry another when she became old and weak. Our Lord chose a man to lead His ummah among those who could have married more than one, but remained faithfull to ONE wife until her death. After that, he married mostly women who were divorced, old, sick (one died soon after their marriage). He would not have approved of this kind of marriage, for it is not equal, since he can only be legally married to one wife at a time. We are to do justice. There is no justice in this and they are living in sin.

Muslim men do NOT have a RIGHT to multiple marriage. I have had the pleasure of assisting my boss, an attorney with ijaza, to strip every claim from such second "wives" after the death of the "husband". They have no standing in court and the legal wife has every advantage over their claims to any marital asset. They are left with nothing other than the mercy of the legal wife. I am happy to do this because life is hard if you don't know your faith and just pretend to.

I just think your argument has some loopholes. If you want, you can either ignore my post or maybe you will have a reply that can address some of my questions. Either way, I respect and agree with alot of what you wrote. Most of it, in fact.

It seems to me that you are surrounded by people who are bad examples of Muslim practice, so you will need better guidance. If you seek it, it will be best for you. I am not saying this out of malice, but out of respect and concern for your soul.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I guess the bottom line about non-registered, urfi marriage among westerners and MENA men is that we will debate them here as long as there are women who are willing to lower their standards and expectations to be with a man. It would be nice if this practice would not be associated with Islam when they do it, thank you.

[Abo3aly 0]

AA

I just wanna comment about something

PLZ dont judge About islam and mouslims from persons u met in ur life and

u know well that they dont act as islam and our prohet(PBEH) as Mouslims To do

Second URFI marriage

i dont advice any one to do it coz always there is reasons for that Urfi marry:

Maybe man do this as he in game and must play it

maybe he wanna something from wife so it will be easy for him to go after get what he wanna

Zawag (Marriage)in islam must be in light

Urfi not marriage its just apath some persons walk through it to obtian goals in them mind

maybe man couldnt fo wedding but he can go to justice or imam anddo legal Marry

no reasons formarriage to be Dark

thanks

[aya*abouelnasr 0]

I agree that there is no use to continue this thread because no one is ever going to understand my point. No, I don't intend to marry just for the sake of having "legalized sex". The marriage we plan will be acknowledged by the only ones I feel that are important, his immediate family. His brothers, his father, his aunt and cousin have welcomed me into the "family". Spoiled mama's boy? His mother passed away when he was 16, he worked while attending school and university, then has worked since then in a joint effort to support the household. He has concluded his military duties. Not pursue the K1? Yes, that is our intentions. We plan for me to be there at his side during the interview. If for some reason it is denied, we will pursue the K3 visa.

Desperate? Not in any way am I desperate to do this just to say I am married. If that were the case, I could have divorced my now almost ex long ago and remarried. To be totally and blatantly honest, I was in a long term online relationship with another man while still actively living with my almost ex. Our marriage was over, except the divorce, and had been for a long time. I cared for this man deeply, even considered marriage to him, except that in my mind and culture being a second wife isn't acceptable and not something I feel that I could have ever adjusted to. IF I had been desperate for a husband.............maybe.

So, all the advice, warning, words of wisdom have been weighed and taken seriously. Believe me, I am the last one to say that life will be perfect for us, but, we will never know if we don't try. Trying is the least we do, because I believe that he does love me and my children, and I know that I love him and need him in my life.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

This board isn't synonymous with drama for nothin'. May Allah be your guide, Tammy. Insha'allah.

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

I asked Adam just now what he thought about Urfi marriage and he said he believes its wrong and its not real. Not stirring the pot, just throwing my husbands opinion in the posts.

[Abo3aly 0]

I Aplogize coz u misunderstand what i said

And Marry in islam need just 2persons(men)as witness and paper just for civil rights

,ISA urlife with ur husband will be full of happiness

and remember always who love can do anything for wife

Isa u enjoy time with ur husband

I just was talking about urfi(just husband and wife know the realtion) In islam

Isa u will be happy w ur hubby isa

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I Aplogize coz u misunderstand what i said

And Marry in islam need just 2persons(men)as witness and paper just for civil rights

,ISA urlife with ur husband will be full of happiness

and remember always who love can do anything for wife

Isa u enjoy time with ur husband

I just was talking about urfi(just husband and wife know the realtion) In islam

Isa u will be happy w ur hubby isa

You missed alot. She's doing urfi, stills lives with her current husband. Congratulate that.

[Donna A 4]

isnt there a time limit after a divorse (in islam) where a woman has to wait like 3 months before remarrying or something like that. so if thats so, u cant even urfi marriege.