Safe amount of time

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thank God he doesn't smoke. When we talked about the reasons he wanted to leave egypt he said it was because of the economy. Yes, the USA is now in a recession, but it always rebounds while the economy in egypt just seems to get worse. Guess he is looking toward the future.

I would also like to say, I have thought this all out and have been totally realistic with him and myself. I know there is a chance that "love" won't travel across the ocean when he comes. That is a chance any and all of us take when we become involved. That is the reason that I refused to marry him legally when I am Egypt, but Orfi. This will allow us time alone to really get to know each other. If the relationship survives this meeting, I will come back and file the papers when he is ready with the fee's. If and when he get's the visa to come here, the plan is for him to enter thru New York to get the temporary permit to work. If after living and working and seeing the real world in the USA and with me and my sons we decide marriage is the right step for us to take, then we will marry here. If not, well, he had an expensive vacation in the USA and I got to hang out with a friend and have some fun.

LOL, yes, I know, that is a lot of IF"S, but that's the way I roll now.

I wanted to just read this thread and stay out of it, but I can't ignore this talk about urfi marriage. Why would a Muslim woman looking for Allah's blessings in marriage make the first thing she does with the man she desires something that goes against God? Urfi marriage is a concoction of men, not sanctioned in Islam. It gives you nothing except the erroneous belief that you can willfully sin and be forgiven.

It is incredibly insulting to most Sunni Muslims that there are those among us who perpetuate this lie that Allah, who despises divorce, is ok with the idea that you can use Islam as a cover for doing what He doesn't allow without the protections and responsibilities that He demands in marriage. It's just shacking up, and if that's what you want to do, either become a Shia and do muta, or leave Islam out of it altogether.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but this is a warning against what you plan to do, so it cannot seem any other way. If this is what you want to do, it signals little faith in what Allah has planned for you, and already demonstrates that, if he goes along with it, that he is less than honorable. I always wish our sisters the best, but there is no way I can expect the best from a "love story" that begins in defiance of some of the most basic tenets of the faith.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Sofiyya

[Chica Yeyé 41]

I have to concur with Sofiyya, and y'all know that is not a daily thing --- dishonesty is against pretty much any spiritual guide I am aware of. That is, if we truly want to live spiritually. Well said VW, I mean that

[chaishai 1]

Not anyone in this world.

Tammy I love ya but seriously you are going to do what you are going to do no matter what anyone here says so why keep the thread open? It's only going to end up in attacks and bad feelings. I mean I hope it doesn't but I've been here too long to know what happens when you open up your private world to VJ. I wish you and your family all the happiness in the world.

Agreed. And even if it does not, since we all care for Tammy and want her happy; but seems to me she feels the need to justify, respond, reason every move, etc.

My take? You either commit to someone or you don't. No secrets, no shadowy BS that is absolutely culturally inappropriate and that has devastating potential for not only tammy, but her children (plus 'explosive' material if USCIS gets wind and whatnot). I would not, in a million years, put any piece of chorizo before the complete stability and well being of my children. I am not saying tammy is doing that; but sister... your kids are also just healing from the chopfvck you married before. Are THEY ready?

Darling, whether you like it or not; your children should be #1 priority. No, I don't suggest you should NOT live your life; but choosing motherhood carries sacrifice. And no, I do not have babies. But it's common sense.

len you dont get women. we arent about the chorizo. we just want to feel luved.

[doodlebugg 10]

len you dont get women. we arent about the chorizo. we just want to feel luved.

well sometimes we want both and a bag of chips!

[chaishai 1]

len you dont get women. we arent about the chorizo. we just want to feel luved.

well sometimes we want both and a bag of chips!

lol thats true. love with a side of chorizo! what is chorizo anyway? i know its spicy spanish sausage but whats in it? im thinkin its not koshah!

[Chica Yeyé 41]

len you dont get women. we arent about the chorizo. we just want to feel luved.

well sometimes we want both and a bag of chips!

lol thats true. love with a side of chorizo! what is chorizo anyway? i know its spicy spanish sausage but whats in it? im thinkin its not koshah!

mwahahahaha

p.s. I am a woman... we ARE all about the chorizo action -kidding-

Edited August 18, 2009 by *Len*

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Mostly just interesting because women who get into bad relationships tend to, statistically anyway, get into bad relationships afterwards.

True. They respond to what is familiar to them, and that tends to be more of the same ole sh!t. Until that pattern is consciously broken, not much changes.

[chaishai 1]

len you dont get women. we arent about the chorizo. we just want to feel luved.

well sometimes we want both and a bag of chips!

lol thats true. love with a side of chorizo! what is chorizo anyway? i know its spicy spanish sausage but whats in it? im thinkin its not koshah!

mwahahahaha

p.s. I am a woman... we ARE all about the chorizo action -kidding-

drop the chorizo! oh wait, thats the chalupa. ok - now whats a chalupa!

ok back to topic. i guess all i would say to tammy is - if this guy turns out to be another scammer, would you do it again? i ask, because im just questioning her tolerance for hurt.

[chaishai 1]

Mostly just interesting because women who get into bad relationships tend to, statistically anyway, get into bad relationships afterwards.

True. They respond to what is familiar to them, and that tends to be more of the same ole sh!t. Until that pattern is consciously broken, not much changes.

i get this. you could say for example that psychologically you were neglected by your parents, then tried to please a man who cant be pleased, repeat, repeat, repeat.

but why the visa route? if i got burned by a guy wanting a visa i think i would definitely try to reduce my rejection odds and look local next time. no offense.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Your husband is wrong. Sunni's do not have temporary marriage nor do we have marriages that are labeled"Islamic" yet do not conform to the law. There is nothing Islamic about this. Any imam who says this is ok is not reputable. Besides, imams are often not educated in the law and are not qualified to handle legal issues.

The idea that Islam allows for a stop gap measure to lay together and be alone with a man you are not married to is a bida that too many western women have been fed. It serves only to benefit unscrupulous men who look down on women who accept it, out of innocence or desperation.

Frankly, Tammy, you ARE coming off as desparate for a man, and that is painful to watch because we are weary of the drama good women bring upon themselves here.

Sorry. You guys know I don't do pc well.

I asked my husband about this and his answer (with my grammar ):

You can have an Islamic marriage with a contract that is written out and signed by witnesses. You can choose not to register it. However, keep in mind that by doing so, a scammer could basically say no such thing existed. That will leave you with nothing. No monetary support, etc. That is the reason most families don't do it that way. However, to say it's considered shameful...not really. In rural places throughout the Muslim world, it's actually the most common way to marry (without any government reference). Then again, those rural places don't have people trying to come to the US on a K1 visa, but people whose parents arranged the marriage who may be neighbors or distant relatives, etc.

Also, some of you are confusing orfi with muta'a marriage. Muta'a marriage is what is temporary. Not orfi. There are many imams that would say orfi marriages are perfectly halal, whereas muta'a are not. Islam does not require a government entity to make your marriage valid. Remember in the times of the caliphate, they did not seek the caliph's permission to marry. It does require the witnesses, however, and for the woman's safety and security, a contract.

Still, I would not recommend this for your situation. You are an American and you will never know, except with time, what his and his family's intentions are towards you. However, if he comes clean and marries you legally and his family is present and accepting (and throw you a wedding) than that is more assuring.

If you rush, and agree to everything (no matter how ridiculous the demand), they may see you as desperate, and therefore, "not good enough" for their son. Please keep that in mind.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Also, some of you are confusing orfi with muta'a marriage. Muta'a marriage is what is temporary. Not orfi. There are many imams that would say orfi marriages are perfectly halal, whereas muta'a are not. Islam does not require a government entity to make your marriage valid. Remember in the times of the caliphate, they did not seek the caliph's permission to marry. It does require the witnesses, however, and for the woman's safety and security, a contract.

Thanks for the clarification

I dont know of any of the major religions that require a gov entity to register the marriage for it to be "real" in God's eyes...but its all about context. If someone lives in a remote village and is having an arranged family marriage, then ya..i can see that its not registered. but now, in a major city and to a foreigner..that's where the context is.

I agree with your husband too

"God's eyes" Have nothing to do with this except that He sees all we do. What this is abouut is about God's words. The fact is, historically, the society was able to keep norms in check. The early Muslims did register their marriages in the way it was done then. Peope didn't go around willy nilly marrying and divorcing without some relationship to the ummah. Marriage in Islam is a contract with society as well as between the couple.

Early Muslims had a fiduciary relationship with their governments, too Remember Mary and Joesph traveling for the census and to pay taxes?. Who begat who, who is the father of whom, who was married to whom was very important t them, and well documented. One cannot divorce in a fake "Islamic" urfi marriage because you aren't really married, so how can you divorce? We need to set to rest these enabling fantasies some have about the early law and the early ummah.

The idea that people, especially Muslims, are willing to obfuscte around what Islam requires to be halal only to do everything the US government requires to be legal is extremely offensive because it relegates Islamic law below secular law. Why would a Muslim knowingly do that except to satisfy the desire of the flesh?

I need to go read the Muslim thread before my head explodes lol

[Jenn! 918]

Question: if the only purpose of an orfi marriage is having sex, then why do it? You can have sex before you get married - not islamically, of course. But if the orfi marriage is not the right way to do it, then why not go all out and ignore the marriage requirement for sex altogether? To me it seems that those who do get orfi marriages do truly believe that it allows them to have sex. They might be wrong, islamically speaking, but ignorance isn't the same as having dishonorable intentions.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Question: if the only purpose of an orfi marriage is having sex, then why do it? You can have sex before you get married - not islamically, of course. But if the orfi marriage is not the right way to do it, then why not go all out and ignore the marriage requirement for sex altogether? To me it seems that those who do get orfi marriages do truly believe that it allows them to have sex. They might be wrong, islamically speaking, but ignorance isn't the same as having dishonorable intentions.

These can only be people who haven't read a Quran. No excuse for that, if you're Muslim.

[Jenn! 918]

Question: if the only purpose of an orfi marriage is having sex, then why do it? You can have sex before you get married - not islamically, of course. But if the orfi marriage is not the right way to do it, then why not go all out and ignore the marriage requirement for sex altogether? To me it seems that those who do get orfi marriages do truly believe that it allows them to have sex. They might be wrong, islamically speaking, but ignorance isn't the same as having dishonorable intentions.

These can only be people who haven't read a Quran. No excuse for that, if you're Muslim.

But my point is - say they've read the Quran, know an orfi marriage is "wrong", but choose to get one anyway. Why would they do it when they could just have sex? If they want to ignore the Quran, then what's the purpose of this "half-assed" in-between marriage? Is it haram, but not as bad as having sex out of marriage entirely? I just don't get why you would do it - so hotels will allow you to have a room together?

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Also, some of you are confusing orfi with muta'a marriage. Muta'a marriage is what is temporary. Not orfi. There are many imams that would say orfi marriages are perfectly halal, whereas muta'a are not. Islam does not require a government entity to make your marriage valid. Remember in the times of the caliphate, they did not seek the caliph's permission to marry. It does require the witnesses, however, and for the woman's safety and security, a contract.

Thanks for the clarification

I dont know of any of the major religions that require a gov entity to register the marriage for it to be "real" in God's eyes...but its all about context. If someone lives in a remote village and is having an arranged family marriage, then ya..i can see that its not registered. but now, in a major city and to a foreigner..that's where the context is.

I agree with your husband too

"God's eyes" Have nothing to do with this except that He sees all we do. What this is abouut is about God's words. The fact is, historically, the society was able to keep norms in check. The early Muslims did register their marriages in the way it was done then. Peope didn't go around willy nilly marrying and divorcing without some relationship to the ummah. Marriage in Islam is a contract with society as well as between the couple.

Early Muslims had a fiduciary relationship with their governments, too Remember Mary and Joesph traveling for the census and to pay taxes?. Who begat who, who is the father of whom, who was married to whom was very important t them, and well documented. One cannot divorce in a fake "Islamic" urfi marriage because you aren't really married, so how can you divorce? We need to set to rest these enabling fantasies some have about the early law and the early ummah.

The idea that people, especially Muslims, are willing to obfuscte around what Islam requires to be halal only to do everything the US government requires to be legal is extremely offensive because it relegates Islamic law below secular law. Why would a Muslim knowingly do that except to satisfy the desire of the flesh?

I need to go read the Muslim thread before my head explodes lol

VW, my point was..... not legally registering your marriage doesnt negate the marriage in any major religion. It's not exclusive to rural villages in muslim countries. If I go get married by a priest/pastor in a church..i am in fact married in the eyes of my God. thats all. I dont know enough about islam to say anything about orfi marriages except my husband wouldnt allow it for us and thinks its just "cheating" I'll let you do all the explaining on this, cuzz you kinda rock at it