Safe amount of time

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Indeed, sister Tammy needs and must be not only careful; but extremely careful. I also find it peculiar that the new boyfriend is OK with having a secret marriage; as I understand it would be very much against the Muslim ways (pardon me if I trip on the words). And yes, like someone said; starting a new bond based on secrecy and darkness is not a good omen, in any spiritual way of life.

Staashi gave a great idea: tell him before you leave for Egypt even, that you want to get married. And then file for the visa. See reactions, evaluate, etc. Sounds cold as ice; but you more than anyone know this is no joking matter.

Are you divorced already? When is that divorce final? You need to take into account all this and a bag of chips.

Blessings.

see how he feels about registering that marrige and having a wedding party there with his family.

[CnT4ever 1]

I asked my husband about this and his answer (with my grammar ):

You can have an Islamic marriage with a contract that is written out and signed by witnesses. You can choose not to register it. However, keep in mind that by doing so, a scammer could basically say no such thing existed. That will leave you with nothing. No monetary support, etc. That is the reason most families don't do it that way. However, to say it's considered shameful...not really. In rural places throughout the Muslim world, it's actually the most common way to marry (without any government reference). Then again, those rural places don't have people trying to come to the US on a K1 visa, but people whose parents arranged the marriage who may be neighbors or distant relatives, etc.

Also, some of you are confusing orfi with muta'a marriage. Muta'a marriage is what is temporary. Not orfi. There are many imams that would say orfi marriages are perfectly halal, whereas muta'a are not. Islam does not require a government entity to make your marriage valid. Remember in the times of the caliphate, they did not seek the caliph's permission to marry. It does require the witnesses, however, and for the woman's safety and security, a contract.

Still, I would not recommend this for your situation. You are an American and you will never know, except with time, what his and his family's intentions are towards you. However, if he comes clean and marries you legally and his family is present and accepting (and throw you a wedding) than that is more assuring.

If you rush, and agree to everything (no matter how ridiculous the demand), they may see you as desperate, and therefore, "not good enough" for their son. Please keep that in mind.

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Also, some of you are confusing orfi with muta'a marriage. Muta'a marriage is what is temporary. Not orfi. There are many imams that would say orfi marriages are perfectly halal, whereas muta'a are not. Islam does not require a government entity to make your marriage valid. Remember in the times of the caliphate, they did not seek the caliph's permission to marry. It does require the witnesses, however, and for the woman's safety and security, a contract.

Thanks for the clarification

I dont know of any of the major religions that require a gov entity to register the marriage for it to be "real" in God's eyes...but its all about context. If someone lives in a remote village and is having an arranged family marriage, then ya..i can see that its not registered. but now, in a major city and to a foreigner..that's where the context is.

I agree with your husband too

[Staashi 371]

In rural places throughout the Muslim world, it's actually the most common way to marry (without any government reference). Then again, those rural places don't have people trying to come to the US on a K1 visa, but people whose parents arranged the marriage who may be neighbors or distant relatives, etc.

Remember though, TSK is going to Alexandria - one of the most metropolitan areas in all of MENA, so I would assume that rural Islamic culture wouldn't apply too much to this situation.

[Ihavequestions 419]

Orfi marriages are not legal, or legally sanctioned marriages in Egypt. Typically they happen between men who work in tourism and tourists (so they can stay in a hotel room together), college students (who can't afford to marry or who want to have sex), and Gulf Arabs who come to Egypt and orfi a poor country girl (then leave her when their vacation is over).

Sure, it's possible to sign the marriage contract and call it an engagement. That's not unusual here. However, signing a marriage contract does not constitute a marriage and for Tammy to stay with this man and his family, in their home, marriage would be a requirement.

[aya*abouelnasr 0]

I guess my answer to all and any of these tips and comments would be:

Then why do any of us do this in the first place. Any of it? Why bother to have any kind of relationship with any man from ME/NA? Online, in person, orfi, legal?

Life is a game, we either play it or we sit on the sidelines and say "What if"?

There are so many reasons why I chose to go this route. Yes, I know how long and painful the process can be. Yes, I know the risk I am taking, believe me. I also know that it takes two people to make a relationship work, and only one to break it apart. So far the two of us have been working together to make it work, if that should change, if doubts came to cloud our minds about our relationship, I would not want either of us to be locked into a situation that we wanted out of.

Funny, but I remember all the "tests" that people suggested I try when I was with Ibrahim. He passed each and every one of them, but the true test was his attitude and actions after he came here. He failed in his duties as a muslim man. He didn't care to take care of his home, his step sons, and certainly not his wife. There were times when I was out of work and didn't have money to buy food. My sons would have to eat ramen noodles for days, I would not eat, or I would eat bread so the boys could eat. Ibrahim would have money, go to the store and buy only enough chicken and rice and salad for himself. He would cook it and eat it in his bedroom, knowing that we had nothing. He refused to pay and of the bills for the house, leaving me with a gas bill over 1000.00, a phone bill over 500.00 from phoning all his family around the USA and Jordan. I had to put the phone in his name secretly so that I would have a way to keep a phone in the house as I could not afford to keep minutes on my cell. When he left my home, he asked me when I was going to take his name off the gas and put the phone back in my name. I told him I would do it when he paid me his half of the balance. He's been gone for a month now and I have not seen a dime or even heard from him. This from a man who had NO problem before and after arriving in the US, to ask me for money for anything.

Islam........well, to be honest, I have offered to lend him money before. He needed money to purchase his license for his car. It was about $40.00 that he needed, and I offered to send it to him until he had the money. I would do this for anyone I know or care about, even just a friend. He refused, saying it was his place to take care of me, not mine to take care of him. He also knows and accepts that I will not pay for any of the immigration process. My ticket to egypt, we fought about that, because I will pay for that. Nothing else tho.

[lgg 2]

Just wondering, i don't have an opinion as this sort of relationship as it is way beyond my scope of comprehension... but I wonder, if you sometimes don't have money for food for you and your children and if you owe lots of money for bills and such, how could pay for such an expensive plane ticket to Egypt? I work a lot and have no debt or children to feed and buying a ticket like that plus taking the time off would compromise me financially....

I only say this as I think that priorities need to be established for your children and your life first.

Edited August 18, 2009 by lgg

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Just wondering, i don't have an opinion as this sort of relationship as it is way beyond my scope of comprehension... but I wonder, if you sometimes don't have money for food for you and your children and if you owe lots of money for bills and such, how could pay for such an expensive plane ticket to Egypt? I work a lot and have no debt or children to feed and buying a ticket like that plus taking the time off would compromise me financially....

I only say this as I think that priorities need to be established for your children and your life first.

normally I would TOTALLY agree with that line of thinking, but I think she said "there was a time when i was off work" as in...not anymore does she struggle like that.

[aya*abouelnasr 0]

Simple question, easy answer. My finances have improved dramatically. The bills are paid up, and I have some savings now too. After much searching and changes of dates to travel, I lucked into a ticket for less than $700 round trip. I can't even stay at a motel in the USA, buy meals and sight see for a week at that price. My expenses in egypt will be minimal, just what ever shopping I want to do.

[CnT4ever 1]

Orfi marriages are not legal, or legally sanctioned marriages in Egypt. Typically they happen between men who work in tourism and tourists (so they can stay in a hotel room together), college students (who can't afford to marry or who want to have sex), and Gulf Arabs who come to Egypt and orfi a poor country girl (then leave her when their vacation is over).

(I believe this is the temporary "muta'a" marriage - not just orfi)Sure, it's possible to sign the marriage contract and call it an engagement. That's not unusual here. However, signing a marriage contract does not constitute a marriage and for Tammy to stay with this man and his family, in their home, marriage would be a requirement.

That is why we advised her not to follow that route, because it would leave her open to being scammed. Also, it is not appropriate for her situation (like you said, she is not living in a rural Islamic town where this is normal). I just thought it was interesting to point out that it's not shameful or sinful, depending on people's circumstances. Also, seems there is confusion between temp marriages (muta'a which is often practiced by Shiite Muslims??) and simply non-registered "nikah" or "orfi" marriage.

I hope this time, Tammy, that you find happiness that is sincere and real. Hopefully this time you will be more aware and learn from your first experience and will jet out of the relationship as soon as you see something is not right. Good luck!

[Chica Yeyé 41]

One thing puzzles me .... who are you trying to convince sister Tammy?

[aya*abouelnasr 0]

Not anyone in this world.

[Ayman and Yasmina 0]

I wasnt going to comment cause I know no matter what happens or what anyone tells you, in the end you will do what you want to do. Here is my two cents..

Its very hit or miss with Egyptian men! 99% of them are mamma's boys I mean literally their cord is still attached!! (ok not literally) The oldest son is the most special thing in the whole wide world...Egyptian men are brought up to be spoiled brats...Their image of America is very far from reality..

I think he needs to be fully aware that they dont give free handouts in America, work does not come to you, you actually go to it..Most people dont have jobs in Egypt because they dont look for one..They sit on their behinds all day and night watching the dish untill mommy or daddy finds a wasta(a connection to a job) no such thing as sending out their resume..America can be a good place to immigrate if you go for the right reason..

I have a question are you older then him? His family might blow a few gaskets over that!

I want to write more but baby is driving me nuts! be back

[doodlebugg 10]

Not anyone in this world.

Tammy I love ya but seriously you are going to do what you are going to do no matter what anyone here says so why keep the thread open? It's only going to end up in attacks and bad feelings. I mean I hope it doesn't but I've been here too long to know what happens when you open up your private world to VJ. I wish you and your family all the happiness in the world.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Not anyone in this world.

Tammy I love ya but seriously you are going to do what you are going to do no matter what anyone here says so why keep the thread open? It's only going to end up in attacks and bad feelings. I mean I hope it doesn't but I've been here too long to know what happens when you open up your private world to VJ. I wish you and your family all the happiness in the world.

Agreed. And even if it does not, since we all care for Tammy and want her happy; but seems to me she feels the need to justify, respond, reason every move, etc.

My take? You either commit to someone or you don't. No secrets, no shadowy BS that is absolutely culturally inappropriate and that has devastating potential for not only tammy, but her children (plus 'explosive' material if USCIS gets wind and whatnot). I would not, in a million years, put any piece of chorizo before the complete stability and well being of my children. I am not saying tammy is doing that; but sister... your kids are also just healing from the chopfvck you married before. Are THEY ready?

Darling, whether you like it or not; your children should be #1 priority. No, I don't suggest you should NOT live your life; but choosing motherhood carries sacrifice. And no, I do not have babies. But it's common sense.