A Hard Situation

[~ameriptian~ 54]

Salam everyone!

I had to travel urgently for about more than 48 hours ago, I did not have an access to the internet and so I could not reply to any of you. John has been following the topic because we both needed to know the answers of our TWO questions about HOME VISITATIONS FROM THE EMBASSY and HOW TO AVOID A BAD SCENARIO AT THE INTERVIEW. Actually this account belongs to me and John only that he never used it to post anything before only me did. He did feel very offended by some of the answers and actually after I read these comments I felt the same... He prepared a long kinda 'angry' reply to post last night to those who provided off point posts, but we both decided to wait until I get home and post it myself in order not confuse any of you about who of us is posting and I thought he needs to calm down and ignore judgemental comments, but I do see now why he felt that offended... So here comes John's reply then will be followed by mine...

"Wow now after that comment I'm getting involved... Assalaamu' Alaykum VJ readers this is Aya's Johnny..first of all thank you for all the kind words from some of the posters. And the help you have given my baby. But some of you.. Well only two people here have there head on backwards. Aya knows just as Well as I do I can't stay for a long visit.. I have a family to take care of and if you read closer of what my baby said we have tried i have tried to meet them and Yes its cause I'm not Egyptian. And we are in love i know a conservative family frowns upon it with who is in love prior to marriage. The Quran and Sunnah show NO objection with love before marriage. I can see if i was not a Muslim but.. I am a Muslim. and at the time lol lol. They did not even know where i lived at the time of telling them we were together and they were happy and then mad and happy again it was like a roller coaster.. And to you where i live its not a issue cause you don't know jack..they want to hold power and have her marry who they want to.. And also to twist i always liked that word lol lol any way twist your head around on the right way.. I have written letters and tried to talk and get the support of the 'family'. I'm not abusive nor am i on the poor end. But there being stubborn. But i do care for them and I do try cause I do have a heart and it's my baby's family and for the user that said about Islam and marrying and this and that Well your the type of person who give us Muslims a bad reputation. I could explain it just like the user that ripped you a new one about Islam and traditions and what is right in the heart ...i bow my hat to you thank you.. Also I'm so so so vexed with the same 2 people that had to say something to about Islam..AGAIN. my Islam that I follow does not recognize ethnic- we are all the same.. We are the people of the world.. the 2 and you know who i mean are. You both are incorrect politically and heart wise about Islam and life in general. What you're doing is you discriminating against who should marry who and where I'm from. But you 2 people that posted this junk are biggets. It's your thinking that makes this world hard to live in. I know all about cultures and stuff and I know where your coming from but it's wrong to think how your thinking.. In some ways it's good as ok will let it slide but how hard is it to support your child in life?! That's a good deed right? You probably live in a suppressed society and won't let a woman stand and talk or even talk freely about her views and so on.. I would not twist things like you have done. We are on this earth together if you have something to say about anything think from your heart buddy and uncover the veil from your mind or stay under the rock you came under from.. Cause people don't need to hear your senseless thinking.. We are all the same.. You really need to change your thinking views. .. Man your dumb and so so blind too sorry as you can see you struck a nerve with me.. If your daughter wanted to marry some one mentally challenged even though she cares for him dearly but he could not even hold his fork to his lips you probably would not support her who is anyone to say who someone should live their life with and love. I would stand by my baby and daughter and son with support. If they fall or fail I will still be behind them and support there next decision.... And my baby does not need to hear nasty things from a 'want to be' follower that knows nothing about nothing telling her what she should do or else it's a sin and word of God and Islam. Islam liberated people from traditions and that kind of way of thinking. Some Muslims like the 2 users here love there culture more than Islam that's why they are willing to mix up there religion for the sake of their culture. You can't add or subtract any thing from Islam don't mix it up and call it Islam like the marriage thing don't mix it up for your dumb way of thinking. Aya is gone for a few days and she hard time to come back to this junk. Sigh I'm done I'm tired of letting ignorant blind people know whats right .. I'm out .. A tip of my hat to all that know the truth about Islam and kind hearts.. And supporting dreams.. Trying to show what his hidden and not spoken about stand up and say its wrong.

Good luck on everyone's visa

JOHN"

[~ameriptian~ 54]

Now here comes my reply...

no_where_man, I understand your concerns. But the attitude you are taking is not making things any better. I do have to deal with that judgemental attitude concerning my relationship ALL THE TIME and it is very hard to deal with the clear prejudice against a Muslim female's decisions about her OWN life. Islam does not put restrictions on a woman's life, traditions and how people want to see things do. I made it clear in my first post in this topic that I care about my family that is why I chose not to move out 'yet' to avoid all this mess. My fiance and I knew we wanted to marry a few months after we met. We could have done it and filed for a K3 if we did not care to still have their approval and make things better (and by the way, as far as I know an Egyptian female 21+ can marry herself to her man according to the hanafi stream), but it is just not me I would never do that to. I still like to try my best.So, I really do not know why you mentioned marrying in Egypt and the Egyptian law... Plus, it really confuses me how people think. God would be angry with me if I did not have my family's blessing (which my fiance and I are trying every day to have with no success), and would be ok with them for denying me the right to choose who I want to marry and actually force me into meeting someone while I am engaged to another?!! It really does not make sense. Again, I understand your concerns, but you did not put yourself in my shoes. As an Egyptian man you probably have a lot of freedom of choice than I do, I am sure my brother would not face the same situation if he wanted to marry an American lady or a lady from any nationality... Women here are pictured inside a frame of traditions that they are not supposed to go against and that frame does not give them what they really deserve in life and simple rights like deciding who they want to be. This situation is hard enough and it takes the smile off my face for days and I really was not waiting for judging it like the way you did because I know that already I am dealing with *sighs*.. It's much pressure already.....

KH, As you read and replied to my previous post before John and I sent our K1 papers, I guess you do know his inention was not to do it for my sake. I would have never been happy if he did. It's his decision and his connection with God. We would love to live in Egypt we actually are seriously planning on it, but he simply cannot move here at the moment for many personal reasons that we have discussed over the past year. Things can be easy if people want to make them easy. You cannot tell about someone's deen just by how long they have converted, can you? I know people who were born Muslims and they do not pray, go to the mosque, or even do the basics. My fiance has been keeping that since the day he has converted he learns every day and we have long discussions together and he actually reminds me of many things I have not read about in long times. I can truly say I am proud of him and his willingness to learn. I always have even before he converted. Another point is, some people cannot be with very very religious people or in other words the type who is taking life too seriously and just putting pressure on others, some can. In other words, the level of piousness of your partner is something that is up to him/her and you. What goes for you does not have to go for everyone else, does it? We all try hard to be a 'good person' on many levels including the religious/spiritual one. But no one can really determine how good the person is except his creator. Plus, one can 'look/appear' religious pious and all and inside he can be far from being a pious person, am I right? I understand the point you are trying to make as well. I respect you, you know that already. But, only God knows what we are going through just to make everyone happy. We have covered all the points you suggested already and came to our decision after deep thinking and I believe it is the right one, because I do not see any sign of consent in the near future...

My questions were specific and to the point and if I added any details it was ONLY to provide an overview of the situation which already includes much more 'harder' details. We all like to have privacy over our own personal life after all, but making false offending assumptions like this one:

I also agree with KH regarding the "conversions" I see taking place amongst "Muslims" right before marriage... it's very fishy in my opinion...yes, call me old fashioned too, but I wouldn't believe in a conversion that happened over night. If this John is a practicing Muslim, then it's upto him to follow the religion and prove his intentions in the religion to her and her parents. Trying to get a girl to have a relationship with him online and take her across the world without her parents blessings, is a piss poor way to do it if you ask me!

I also agree with KH regarding the "conversions" I see taking place amongst "Muslims" right before marriage... it's very fishy in my opinion...yes, call me old fashioned too, but I wouldn't believe in a conversion that happened over night. If this John is a practicing Muslim, then it's upto him to follow the religion and prove his intentions in the religion to her and her parents. Trying to get a girl to have a relationship with him online and take her across the world without her parents blessings, is a piss poor way to do it if you ask me!

Besides, is it really allowed Islamically for the girl to leave and go alone to him without a chaperone and marry him? What happens if he "defiles" her before they marry? Who is her protector in this journey? What happens if he dumps her once she's here? Or starts making excuses and doesn't follow through? What if he becomes like the other men we hear about on VJ who bring over foreign wives and start abusing them and treating them like slaves...I see that in the "Effects of Family Changes" section. She will be alone without anyone to fall back on...and probably without her family if they decide to "disown" her for going off with him. Lots of things to think about..

Is this the right way we are supposed to look at new Muslim reverts (whether it's my fiance or anyone else) to be suspicious to them and think their conversion is fishy?! That is SO not of Islam... Why on earth would you talk that way about someone's intentions?! Someone you've never actually known and you keep assuming in that manner what he intends. I guess you did not read my first post about rude comments cause yours is far from not being one....

I like to thank the rest as well as John did. And a special thank you to Chemaatah you took the words out of my mouth.. Thank you

Aya

Edited July 4, 2009 by Aya&John

[doodlebugg 10]

2 things I've learned from this thread:

I want chemaata on my side if I ever post something and am as vulnerable as aya was when she made this.

I never want my husband to make an account here. We always joke about why many arab men don't participate here but omg he'd get crucified if he ever expressed his true positions on some of the topics here. Then again some women do the same and they stay. I'm not sure what that means but maybe the women are stronger? Or maybe the men are smarter....my husband would probably say screw this and go back to playing poppit without a care of anything said here. Maybe women just take things here too emotionally.

Anyways sorry for the interruption. Carry on and good luck Aya in whatever you decide. Being away from the one you love be him a good strong muslim, a bad muslim, a new muslim, a Christian, a Hindu or heck an athiest is not easy no matter what the situation.

[~ameriptian~ 54]

I like to add something else...

Referring to my fiance with 'this John', by the same poster I quoted minutes earlier, was very rude and I totally didn't need to come back and read stuff like that... You wouldn't like your partner to be referred to that way, do you?!... Please reread your post before posting it and see if you are conveying your point and at the same time RESPECTING PEOPLE's FEELINGS or not!!

We are all here to help each other and support each other in our journey to be with our loved ones (at least in this forum), and the least thing one of us needs is bringing them down and analyzing their personal life, intentions, and decisions in the harsh manner I've seen from some posters... I would never analyze any of your intentions or your relationships that way. We are all supposed to be here for support and help during that hard wait time, but seems some people are not here for that....

[Nothing1234 2]

I like to add something else...

Referring to my fiance with 'this John', by the same poster I quoted minutes earlier, was very rude and I totally didn't need to come back and read stuff like that... You wouldn't like your partner to be referred to that way, do you?!... Please reread your post before posting it and see if you are conveying your point and at the same time RESPECTING PEOPLE's FEELINGS or not!!

We are all here to help each other and support each other in our journey to be with our loved ones (at least in this forum), and the least thing one of us needs is bringing them down and analyzing their personal life, intentions, and decisions in the harsh manner I've seen from some posters... I would never analyze any of your intentions or your relationships that way. We are all supposed to be here for support and help during that hard wait time, but seems some people are not here for that....

Aya and John, I have learned to just tune out or block the boobs Some people are so bored with their own lives they have nothing better to do than point finger at others or try to flame a thread in hopes of having "weekend" plans. You were answered by many of us who support you and John and want your journey to be smooth. Those that hide behind religion/culture and point fingers (throw stones) are the ones that should worry...not you or "us".

Good luck guys and you know by now who to chat w/ or hit up on PM when you have questions. Don't stop posting, keep us updated and just ignore or block those that can't keep the peace. It's a public board so unfortunately, like the workplace, you can't "keep em out" so just avoid them.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

Now here comes my reply...

KH, As you read and replied to my previous post before John and I sent our K1 papers, I guess you do know his inention was not to do it for my sake. I wasn't writing about what I know, or what you know. I was talking about what your parents may believe. You are already convinced, and my opinion really doesn't matter one way or another.. it's the Embassy you want to approve your visa, and getting your parents approval certainly would help in MANY ways.

I would have never been happy if he did. It's his decision and his connection with God. We would love to live in Egypt we actually are seriously planning on it, but he simply cannot move here at the moment for many personal reasons that we have discussed over the past year. Things can be easy if people want to make them easy. You cannot tell about someone's deen just by how long they have converted, can you? Absolutely not! Some new converts are all fired up when they first convert, (and they can drive long time Muslims a little crazy with their enthusiasm) Unfortunately I've seen them become disenchanted for a variety of reasons, and leave Islam completely. And you can't know the future, only time tells... That's why I think time is important. It's just my opinion based on 30 years of observation. Again, I'm talking about what would help you gain the blessings and approval of your family. Not your belief in his deen. It's clear that you are satisfied with it. I know people who were born Muslims and they do not pray, go to the mosque, or even do the basics. My fiance has been keeping that since the day he has converted he learns every day and we have long discussions together and he actually reminds me of many things I have not read about in long times. I can truly say I am proud of him and his willingness to learn. I always have even before he converted. Another point is, some people cannot be with very very religious people or in other words the type who is taking life too seriously and just putting pressure on others, some can. In other words, the level of piousness of your partner is something that is up to him/her and you. What goes for you does not have to go for everyone else, does it? We all try hard to be a 'good person' on many levels including the religious/spiritual one. But no one can really determine how good the person is except his creator. Plus, one can 'look/appear' religious pious and all and inside he can be far from being a pious person, am I right? You are totally right! I understand the point you are trying to make as well. I respect you, you know that already. Thanks Aya, You must know I want the BEST for you! I didn't mean to ignore your question about getting approved at the embassy, I was responding to someone else's suggestion, and thinking about the LONG TERM affect it could have on you if you were unable to get 2 approvals.. (home and embassy) But, only God knows what we are going through just to make everyone happy. We have covered all the points you suggested already and came to our decision after deep thinking and I believe it is the right one, because I do not see any sign of consent in the near future...

I like to thank the rest as well as John did. And a special thank you to Chemaatah you took the words out of my mouth.. Thank you

Aya

I think you asked if you could request that they not do a home visit.... I think if you said something like that to the Embassy they would put your house at the top of their visit list...

As I may have posted before, I think the majority of Egyptian women getting K1 or K3 Visas are marrying Egyptian guys who have US Residency or Citizenship so that is probably not considered a "red flag". Your in a different scenario that is probably a lot less typical, so it's anyone's guess what AP will be like.

If you are lucky they will think you are seeking "freedom" in the USA and will applaud you for breaking all the "oppressive rules placed on poor Muslim women by the Egyptian patriarchal society" and give you the visa straight away to help you "escape". Sometimes their bias can work FOR you....

One thing for sure, if you post on VJ you are very likely to get responses that don't tell you what you want to hear... but sometimes it's really important advice, (obviously not ALWAYS)...

Like they say, take what you need and like and leave the rest.

[CnT4ever 1]

[merijan 0]

Aya and John,

Asalamu Alaikum,

I do not think that John's reply was in anger, but in truth. I think he made some valid points and he is truely sincere in his Islam and his desire to marry Aya. Inshallah you will get the visa. Just pray every day for your parents hearts and Aya I am glad u still repsect them and love them. And John also dont let thier Egyptian Ignorance(please dont take that wrong) get in the way or ur respect for them also . If Allah wills it will be and you will be together. Just keep praying for their hearts to change. Take it a day at a time and try to get thorugh it. You cant blame them for being concerned for someone in a different culture and coutnry that will marry their daughter. You know the love they have for thier children is beyond our understanding sometimes. I am saying this only because I have Egyptian friends here in the states and I know thier thinking and their passions. Please try to be patient and Allah will take care of it. May Allah bless you with a wonderful life together.

Salam

Raelynn

[morocco4ever 63]

This whole thing about following the parents wishes as being Islamically correct is really confusing to me. What if the parents are pushing her to do something that is not Islamically correct? What should a woman do in this situation? Because if I remember correctly, dating is not allowed, yet this young woman's parents pushed her on a blind date? Very confusing.

Aya I hope you can get approved without issue. But it would be wise to be honest with the consulate that your parents are not in favor of this marriage. Best wishes to you both.

[morocco4ever 63]

Also I find it very sad to think that someones reverting to Islam would EVER be considered suspicious.

[~ameriptian~ 54]

I just wanted to thank everyone who cared to give answers, share their experience, and showed support for us. I wish those who are apart from their loved ones to be reunited again with them soon and all of you, including us, a happy life. I also pray for the best and guidance for everyone to see the truth, soften our hearts to what we find hard to accept, and be blessed in every step of our lives... Ameen...

Aya

[~ameriptian~ 54]

It's ok... I hope that topic was a lesson for all of us...

[alonoochka 0]

dear Aya, there is no much you can do in this situation. Talking to your family and explaining-is no options, moving out -is no option. The only option i see is to not being afraid from the visit because the chance that they will come to investigate is small !!! my thoughts to you is to deal with the problem if it will come, since it nothing you can do to prevent it. Dont worry too much. If they will come to invstigate, and your family will not be cooperative (small chance + another small chance)...... then you You and your husband can go to the local USCIS office and explain the situation. Honesty always works and unusual cases always submitted, you are not the first- so don't worry. The chance that your fears will come true is very small and have solutions. Think possitive and imagine how you will soon see your sweetheart and how nice everything will be and how you will live together and have a family of your own. Think like that- and rejoice ! Consentrate on the pssitive! Have faith!!! Besides, USCIS officers are not stupid..officers that work in Egypt probably been thru it many times since its so common for a muslim family to behave like that in that matter (the marriage matter).

GOOD-LUCK !