A Hard Situation

[nurse1967 287]

I don't think he's talking about marrying outside of culture. He's probably talking about the fact that a Muslim female who has never been married before cannot give herself in marriage. She must have the permission and blessings of her father. He has to be the one to give her away. Also, no imam, (valid imam) would allow a Muslim girl to marry anyone without the father, brother, uncle, etc present. Non-Muslim they can, but not Muslim girls. That is the view of mainstream Islam as it is told to me...other people with less popular views might find a way to manipulate the situation to their liking and say it's okay (like they do with the whole Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men) - as it is told to me.

I also wonder why the parents don't like him? Is it because he's not Egyptian? Because he's not Muslim? (I don't know if he is or isn't). Maybe he doesn't make enough money? Maybe they're scared their daughter will be abused? and there is no protecter here for her? You have to think about what is going through their minds. Is it possible the parents hate him for no reason? Maybe it's not hate, but fear...

aya told us why-"My family's only reason for disagreeing with me is that they want me to marry an Egyptian!" in the OP.

i personally don't consider the hanafi position on this marriage issue to be "manipulating the situation to one's liking and saying it's okay", but that's just me. her family's position is not islamically sound. i don't know of a single school that would allow rejection of a marriage proposal based on nationality. it's of course up to her to decide how to go about dealing with this, but that other guy's comments were out of line, and completely ignorant of the fact that much more learned hanafi scholars say she has every right to marry this man without having to worry about "ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc"

Maybe they are not hanafi? Anyway, I have no idea but the imam had said that if a girl is Muslim and never married before, then she must have her father present. It happened to me and to another lady which married a Muslim and we had to tell the imam that about not being Muslim and had no "wali" otherwise he wasn't going to do the religious marriage. Actually I'm not sure if he would have asked for the father anyway, but due to age, the father was deceased already.

Either way, telling a girl that comes from a "conservative" family in Egypt, to just ignore her parents and do what makes her happy is not responsible advice. That is Egypt, not America. Girls cannot just "do what they want"...they have consequences there that you seem to be forgetting...especially for girls.

I also agree with KH regarding the "conversions" I see taking place amongst "Muslims" right before marriage... it's very fishy in my opinion...yes, call me old fashioned too, but I wouldn't believe in a conversion that happened over night. If this John is a practicing Muslim, then it's upto him to follow the religion and prove his intentions in the religion to her and her parents. Trying to get a girl to have a relationship with him online and take her across the world without her parents blessings, is a piss poor way to do it if you ask me!

Besides, is it really allowed Islamically for the girl to leave and go alone to him without a chaperone and marry him? What happens if he "defiles" her before they marry? Who is her protector in this journey? What happens if he dumps her once she's here? Or starts making excuses and doesn't follow through? What if he becomes like the other men we hear about on VJ who bring over foreign wives and start abusing them and treating them like slaves...I see that in the "Effects of Family Changes" section. She will be alone without anyone to fall back on...and probably without her family if they decide to "disown" her for going off with him. Lots of things to think about...

for the ones who attacked my comment with a blind way , here is what i meant :

im not throwing the responsibility of this over Islam my Religion ..actually thats not the fact

but brothers and sisters ..we cant deny the fact that parents approval is so important as for us Muslims ,,and all who read Quran and is a muslim know very well wzout any doubt and regardless (immam or Hanafi ) that Quran said that parents approval is a bless or we will live a life full of curses , who can deny taht Quran said so ?!

i put my comment from the Quran view not from ppl views ...

also , i know very well that as long as my sister Aya is a (girl -Virgin ) she dnt have the Authority according to Egyptian law to just go and marry her self to her beloved one , she is required to either be accompanied by her father, a guardian, a person in loco parentis, or a written consent from any of the above , so why everyone attacked as if im saying something so wrong ? isnt this our religion and our tradition ...and also our LAW in Egypt ?!

me my self dont know of any virgin one who can marry alone (legal marriage ) without what i said above ..if anyone did have such experience , so i will be glad to know it , but lets not forget ..its NOT AN INVITE to go a head ..please sister ...as ur man is important to u ...dnt forget ur family who bring u to this life and brought u up to be what u r ..wzout their agreements and blessings , u will never enjoy life or whats after Death ,,,

thank you all for listening

and for others ,,rather give an advise from Quran , or please stay seated , we dnt need any invites to whats wrong , not only traditionally ..but as of traditions ...Quran , and even by Egyptian LAW (as i know )

peace

I am pretty sure she was not asking you to quote the Quran for her or to give her your opinions on how she is disrespecting her parents. What she is asking people is how she can avoid being denied by the Embassy. In that case I think we should tell her just exactly what everyone has been telling her. Try to work with your family to get their acceptance. In the case that you cannot, make sure to assemble as much evidence as possible to show you have a bonafide relationship. Good luck to you.

[sandinista! 1,816]

she's applying for a k-1 visa, to get married in the united states. what, if anything, would egyptian marriage laws have to do with her situation? do they pertain to an egyptian citizen seeking to get married elsewhere? do egyptian marriage laws have any bearing on her being able to receive a k-1 visa to the united states?

as well, butt out of her life. she didn't start this thread to solicit this kind of rubbish. you are neither hers, nor anyone else's religious guide. you are completely unqualified to deliver the sort of condemnation of other people's choices that you have done here. islamically, aya has a range of choices on this matter, none of which are any of your business to declare that she will "will never enjoy life or whats after Death" if she chooses to go forward with marrying her fiance. good grief. stick to your own unpleasant and self-righteous existence and stop harassing this woman.

[sandinista! 1,816]

additionally, i seem to remember someone posting on here before that egyptian laws, including those on marriage, were not based on sharia, but french colonial law. am i remembering that correctly?

I don't think he's talking about marrying outside of culture. He's probably talking about the fact that a Muslim female who has never been married before cannot give herself in marriage. She must have the permission and blessings of her father. He has to be the one to give her away. Also, no imam, (valid imam) would allow a Muslim girl to marry anyone without the father, brother, uncle, etc present. Non-Muslim they can, but not Muslim girls. That is the view of mainstream Islam as it is told to me...other people with less popular views might find a way to manipulate the situation to their liking and say it's okay (like they do with the whole Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men) - as it is told to me.

I also wonder why the parents don't like him? Is it because he's not Egyptian? Because he's not Muslim? (I don't know if he is or isn't). Maybe he doesn't make enough money? Maybe they're scared their daughter will be abused? and there is no protecter here for her? You have to think about what is going through their minds. Is it possible the parents hate him for no reason? Maybe it's not hate, but fear...

aya told us why-"My family's only reason for disagreeing with me is that they want me to marry an Egyptian!" in the OP.

i personally don't consider the hanafi position on this marriage issue to be "manipulating the situation to one's liking and saying it's okay", but that's just me. her family's position is not islamically sound. i don't know of a single school that would allow rejection of a marriage proposal based on nationality. it's of course up to her to decide how to go about dealing with this, but that other guy's comments were out of line, and completely ignorant of the fact that much more learned hanafi scholars say she has every right to marry this man without having to worry about "ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc"

Maybe they are not hanafi? Anyway, I have no idea but the imam had said that if a girl is Muslim and never married before, then she must have her father present. It happened to me and to another lady which married a Muslim and we had to tell the imam that about not being Muslim and had no "wali" otherwise he wasn't going to do the religious marriage. Actually I'm not sure if he would have asked for the father anyway, but due to age, the father was deceased already.

Either way, telling a girl that comes from a "conservative" family in Egypt, to just ignore her parents and do what makes her happy is not responsible advice. That is Egypt, not America. Girls cannot just "do what they want"...they have consequences there that you seem to be forgetting...especially for girls.

I also agree with KH regarding the "conversions" I see taking place amongst "Muslims" right before marriage... it's very fishy in my opinion...yes, call me old fashioned too, but I wouldn't believe in a conversion that happened over night. If this John is a practicing Muslim, then it's upto him to follow the religion and prove his intentions in the religion to her and her parents. Trying to get a girl to have a relationship with him online and take her across the world without her parents blessings, is a piss poor way to do it if you ask me!

Besides, is it really allowed Islamically for the girl to leave and go alone to him without a chaperone and marry him? What happens if he "defiles" her before they marry? Who is her protector in this journey? What happens if he dumps her once she's here? Or starts making excuses and doesn't follow through? What if he becomes like the other men we hear about on VJ who bring over foreign wives and start abusing them and treating them like slaves...I see that in the "Effects of Family Changes" section. She will be alone without anyone to fall back on...and probably without her family if they decide to "disown" her for going off with him. Lots of things to think about...

for the ones who attacked my comment with a blind way , here is what i meant :

im not throwing the responsibility of this over Islam my Religion ..actually thats not the fact

but brothers and sisters ..we cant deny the fact that parents approval is so important as for us Muslims ,,and all who read Quran and is a muslim know very well wzout any doubt and regardless (immam or Hanafi ) that Quran said that parents approval is a bless or we will live a life full of curses , who can deny taht Quran said so ?!

i put my comment from the Quran view not from ppl views ...

also , i know very well that as long as my sister Aya is a (girl -Virgin ) she dnt have the Authority according to Egyptian law to just go and marry her self to her beloved one , she is required to either be accompanied by her father, a guardian, a person in loco parentis, or a written consent from any of the above , so why everyone attacked as if im saying something so wrong ? isnt this our religion and our tradition ...and also our LAW in Egypt ?!

me my self dont know of any virgin one who can marry alone (legal marriage ) without what i said above ..if anyone did have such experience , so i will be glad to know it , but lets not forget ..its NOT AN INVITE to go a head ..please sister ...as ur man is important to u ...dnt forget ur family who bring u to this life and brought u up to be what u r ..wzout their agreements and blessings , u will never enjoy life or whats after Death ,,,

thank you all for listening

and for others ,,rather give an advise from Quran , or please stay seated , we dnt need any invites to whats wrong , not only traditionally ..but as of traditions ...Quran , and even by Egyptian LAW (as i know )

peace

I am pretty sure she was not asking you to quote the Quran for her or to give her your opinions on how she is disrespecting her parents. What she is asking people is how she can avoid being denied by the Embassy. In that case I think we should tell her just exactly what everyone has been telling her. Try to work with your family to get their acceptance. In the case that you cannot, make sure to assemble as much evidence as possible to show you have a bonafide relationship. Good luck to you.

haha, you read my mind.

[No-Where-Man 147]

Betsy

Quran for us Muslims is our Guide in life

so no matter she asked for it or no ...its the guide ..and when i brought Quran so i brought it cz its what we live with as Muslims , but if we talk generally ..i need to tell u tht we r not in USA where anyone can go and do whatever they want , we have our own traditions , which we really honored with , so please read about our traditions and know it and how we think and why then i will be happy to see ur comment

chemaatah ;

i wasnt going to comment over u ..because u showe lack of respect really ..and if u can see my real mean u would know that i want the good for her ..im religious by the way (just cz u said im not ) .. and im NOT her religion ,,but we r not in USA where every one have his own Religious , she apply for K1 visa ...and US embassy here really search for any way to deny visa`s ...everyone know it ...and because she is Female ..and because they know the customs inside the embassy ..im pretty sure she will be asked for pictures gather the family and show their acceptence ....

so im saying why going into a battle that mostly will end in a NOT favour results ?

i prefer she seek the help from her close family relatives ...seek also the religion help and their true opinion in this ...im pretty sure this is better rather being at her own and regret later ...

no offence for anyone here whatever muslims ,,,christinas ...or any ..

i was just talking from the point of view of Islam , traditionsa and customs ..

[Ihavequestions 419]

additionally, i seem to remember someone posting on here before that egyptian laws, including those on marriage, were not based on sharia, but french colonial law. am i remembering that correctly?

Egyptian marriage (a/k/a "Personal Status") law is based entirely on Sharia. Other laws carry over, to some extent, their colonial roots, but not Personal Status.

[nurse1967 287]

Betsy

Quran for us Muslims is our Guide in life

so no matter she asked for it or no ...its the guide ..and when i brought Quran so i brought it cz its what we live with as Muslims , but if we talk generally ..i need to tell u tht we r not in USA where anyone can go and do whatever they want , we have our own traditions , which we really honored with , so please read about our traditions and know it and how we think and why then i will be happy to see ur comment

chemaatah ;

i wasnt going to comment over u ..because u showe lack of respect really ..and if u can see my real mean u would know that i want the good for her ..im religious by the way (just cz u said im not ) .. and im NOT her religion ,,but we r not in USA where every one have his own Religious , she apply for K1 visa ...and US embassy here really search for any way to deny visa`s ...everyone know it ...and because she is Female ..and because they know the customs inside the embassy ..im pretty sure she will be asked for pictures gather the family and show their acceptence ....

so im saying why going into a battle that mostly will end in a NOT favour results ?

i prefer she seek the help from her close family relatives ...seek also the religion help and their true opinion in this ...im pretty sure this is better rather being at her own and regret later ...

no offence for anyone here whatever muslims ,,,christinas ...or any ..

i was just talking from the point of view of Islam , traditionsa and customs ..

Believe me I totally understand the importance of the Quran in Egyptian culture. I also am aware that we have many additional freedoms in the USA that are not enjoyed in other parts of the world. I am very familiar with customs in Egypt. Remember, I married in Egypt. I don't need to read anything else. My husband is extremely devout and believes very much in the teaching of Islam. However, I can tell you he would NEVER had responded to Aya the way you did. That's all I am saying.

[No-Where-Man 147]

Betsy

Quran for us Muslims is our Guide in life

so no matter she asked for it or no ...its the guide ..and when i brought Quran so i brought it cz its what we live with as Muslims , but if we talk generally ..i need to tell u tht we r not in USA where anyone can go and do whatever they want , we have our own traditions , which we really honored with , so please read about our traditions and know it and how we think and why then i will be happy to see ur comment

chemaatah ;

i wasnt going to comment over u ..because u showe lack of respect really ..and if u can see my real mean u would know that i want the good for her ..im religious by the way (just cz u said im not ) .. and im NOT her religion ,,but we r not in USA where every one have his own Religious , she apply for K1 visa ...and US embassy here really search for any way to deny visa`s ...everyone know it ...and because she is Female ..and because they know the customs inside the embassy ..im pretty sure she will be asked for pictures gather the family and show their acceptence ....

so im saying why going into a battle that mostly will end in a NOT favour results ?

i prefer she seek the help from her close family relatives ...seek also the religion help and their true opinion in this ...im pretty sure this is better rather being at her own and regret later ...

no offence for anyone here whatever muslims ,,,christinas ...or any ..

i was just talking from the point of view of Islam , traditionsa and customs ..

Believe me I totally understand the importance of the Quran in Egyptian culture. I also am aware that we have many additional freedoms in the USA that are not enjoyed in other parts of the world. I am very familiar with customs in Egypt. Remember, I married in Egypt. I don't need to read anything else. My husband is extremely devout and believes very much in the teaching of Islam. However, I can tell you he would NEVER had responded to Aya the way you did. That's all I am saying.

i see where u come from Betsy ....

and my wife is an American Christian who i respect her and her religion also , and she taught me alot of things about life there , tht for sure i will know more once i be there GOD willing ,

may be its my language or the way i use words is the reason why some here including u think im somehow give her hard time or so ..actually the fact is i try to only refresh the ideas and thoughts thts we have in our society and our religion as Muslims ..beside our Egyptian Laws also , , why any think that i give her hard time or or or ?!

im not benefiting really ..and evceryone is free ..but if i have info then i dnt like to selfish to share it specially if im sure of it ..i know alot about my religion cz im deep into it , and thts how i built my words ...

its known here and also in our religion that parents approval and happiness in everything regardless important things like marriage is important , and im not saying to give her love , also not to give up her family ..my wife told me abt the american men (the majority ) , and what i try here is ONLY to make her see all the sides from me ..u and all others so it help her compose good idea and take a right path ...

thats all

im done with this topic , my wishes for her with a good joureny sure ..and she knows well (as we talked before if i remember correctly ) that she will consider the matter from all the sides and the important side is Islam as she is Muslim lady ..

take care all .no hard feelings ..u r all my friends ..brothers ..sisters from everywhere

[Ihavequestions 419]

i need to tell u tht we r not in USA where anyone can go and do whatever they want

Really? Anyone can go and do whatever they want? Has something changed since I left and now it's one big free-for-all?

Oh, buddy, you are in for one big suuuuuuuuuuuuprise.

[sandinista! 1,816]

additionally, i seem to remember someone posting on here before that egyptian laws, including those on marriage, were not based on sharia, but french colonial law. am i remembering that correctly?

Egyptian marriage (a/k/a "Personal Status") law is based entirely on Sharia. Other laws carry over, to some extent, their colonial roots, but not Personal Status.

aw, ok. thanks.

[sandinista! 1,816]

im done with this topic

good riddance. you provided nothing but unsolicited meddling and judgment to the entire discussion.

[No-Where-Man 147]

i need to tell u tht we r not in USA where anyone can go and do whatever they want

Really? Anyone can go and do whatever they want? Has something changed since I left and now it's one big free-for-all?

Oh, buddy, you are in for one big suuuuuuuuuuuuprise.

pretty sure u r smart enough to know what im talking about exactely ...

mocking of ppl`s comments although knowing very well its true or at least its well understood is something not decent ;

Night everyone ...

im done with this topic

good riddance. you provided nothing but unsolicited meddling and judgment to the entire discussion.

hosh ..get a life

[Ihavequestions 419]

i need to tell u tht we r not in USA where anyone can go and do whatever they want

Really? Anyone can go and do whatever they want? Has something changed since I left and now it's one big free-for-all?

Oh, buddy, you are in for one big suuuuuuuuuuuuprise.

pretty sure u r smart enough to know what im talking about exactely ...

mocking of ppl`s comments although knowing very well its true or at least its well understood is something not decent ;

Night everyone ...

Me? Not decent? Noone has ever said that about me - not in my entire life.

I was not mocking you. I was warning you that you preconceived notions about life in the United States are tragically flawed.

But you are free to ignore me and do as you wish. Once you get there make sure you "go and do whatever [you] want" then come back and tell us how well that works out for you.

And I'll be happy to tell you I TOLD YOU SO.

[No-Where-Man 147]

i need to tell u tht we r not in USA where anyone can go and do whatever they want

Really? Anyone can go and do whatever they want? Has something changed since I left and now it's one big free-for-all?

Oh, buddy, you are in for one big suuuuuuuuuuuuprise.

pretty sure u r smart enough to know what im talking about exactely ...

mocking of ppl`s comments although knowing very well its true or at least its well understood is something not decent ;

Night everyone ...

Me? Not decent? Noone has ever said that about me - not in my entire life.

did i say so ? i said mocking is not an act of decent ppl ..if u believe u were mocking frm me then its ..if u were not ..then it wasnt meant to u

I was not mocking you. I was warning you that you preconceived notions about life in the United States are tragically flawed.

warning me about what ? i believe u didnt understand what i meant by (freedom there and here )

i meant here we r not free so when we r 18 we can leave home ...and live by our own

meant we r not free to just go and have families wzout legal marriages and honoring our famililies ...

thats what i mean here is not like there , and thts wht i meant by in USA everyone is free to go and do what they want ( and i meant infinite personal freedom ) which is not applied here in Egypt ...hope things clear now

But you are free to ignore me and do as you wish. Once you get there make sure you "go and do whatever [you] want" then come back and tell us how well that works out for you.

And I'll be happy to tell you I TOLD YOU SO.

[Ihavequestions 419]

did i say so ? i said mocking is not an act of decent ppl ..if u believe u were mocking frm me then its ..if u were not ..then it wasnt meant to u

When you quote my words, it's safe to assume you are addressing your comments to me.

Like I said, I was not mocking you. I was telling you that your ideas about life in America are wrong. It's that simple.

I was not mocking you. I was warning you that you preconceived notions about life in the United States are tragically flawed.

warning me about what ? i believe u didnt understand what i meant by (freedom there and here )

i meant here we r not free so when we r 18 we can leave home ...and live by our own

meant we r not free to just go and have families wzout legal marriages and honoring our famililies ...

thats what i mean here is not like there , and thts wht i meant by in USA everyone is free to go and do what they want ( and i meant infinite personal freedom ) which is not applied here in Egypt ...hope things clear now

Again, you're wrong.

Listen, here's my bit of advice about how to get along in America. You have to understand that your rights stop where another person's rights start. There is not the type of freedom you believe there is. And don't try to tell me there are no children born out of wedlock in Egypt - that's what "orphanages" are stuffed full of. There's plenty of freedom (and opportunity) to make babies without being married in Egypt. The difference is that, in America, men are held responsible for the children they produce and in Egypt they aren't.

Here's the real contrast. In Egypt, it's difficult to get married, primarily because it's so expensive. If a couple divorces, she (most often) leaves the marriage with what she brought into it and what her marriage contract entitles her to. In America, it's very inexpensive to get married but it's outrageously expensive to get divorced because the couple builds their life together after they get married (the car/s, the house, the furnishings, the bank accounts, etc.) and that all has to be divided up when they separate. Also, if there are children, the courts become involved and a great majority of the time the chidlrens' father is restricted in the amount of time he parents his own children. So, because a legal union (a marriage) is so costly - emotionally and financially - to dissolve, many people choose not to get themselves in that position to begin with and simply don't marry.

You also seem to imply that children run out and do as they please without considering how that will effect their families. Again, you are wrong. America is much more conservative than you seem to think.

[No-Where-Man 147]

did i say so ? i said mocking is not an act of decent ppl ..if u believe u were mocking frm me then its ..if u were not ..then it wasnt meant to u

When you quote my words, it's safe to assume you are addressing your comments to me.

Like I said, I was not mocking you. I was telling you that your ideas about life in America are wrong. It's that simple.

I was not mocking you. I was warning you that you preconceived notions about life in the United States are tragically flawed.

warning me about what ? i believe u didnt understand what i meant by (freedom there and here )

i meant here we r not free so when we r 18 we can leave home ...and live by our own

meant we r not free to just go and have families wzout legal marriages and honoring our famililies ...

thats what i mean here is not like there , and thts wht i meant by in USA everyone is free to go and do what they want ( and i meant infinite personal freedom ) which is not applied here in Egypt ...hope things clear now

Again, you're wrong.

Listen, here's my bit of advice about how to get along in America. You have to understand that your rights stop where another person's rights start. There is not the type of freedom you believe there is. And don't try to tell me there are no children born out of wedlock in Egypt - that's what "orphanages" are stuffed full of. There's plenty of freedom (and opportunity) to make babies without being married in Egypt. The difference is that, in America, men are held responsible for the children they produce and in Egypt they aren't.

Here's the real contrast. In Egypt, it's difficult to get married, primarily because it's so expensive. If a couple divorces, she (most often) leaves the marriage with what she brought into it and what her marriage contract entitles her to. In America, it's very inexpensive to get married but it's outrageously expensive to get divorced because the couple builds their life together after they get married (the car/s, the house, the furnishings, the bank accounts, etc.) and that all has to be divided up when they separate. Also, if there are children, the courts become involved and a great majority of the time the chidlrens' father is restricted in the amount of time he parents his own children. So, because a legal union (a marriage) is so costly - emotionally and financially - to dissolve, many people choose not to get themselves in that position to begin with and simply don't marry.

You also seem to imply that children run out and do as they please without considering how that will effect their families. Again, you are wrong. America is much more conservative than you seem to think.

may be all the ones i know from there are not Americans and live in Mars including my wife ?!

May be

Good Day to all