questions about love and commitment relative to K1 process

[BluesTraveler 0]

That's exactly what I said. The U.S. government never acknowledged native people as citizens until they themselves requested to be. Even after their land was purchased or they were defeated in battle and forced to relocate, many (most, actually, even still today) were not members of the United States, citizens or otherwise, they were members of an independent Indian nation of XXXXX.

June 2, 1924 the Indian Citizenship Act recognized all Native Americans born in USA territory as US citizens. Yes many tribes still have tribal lands - thats why they can have casinos. However the Native American born on tribal land is a US citizen and citizen of xxx tribe.

The French and the U.S. did have diplomatic relations with Native Americans in the Midwest. All "friendly" tribes were assimilated and/or relocated and all "hostile" tribes were labeled as "enemy nations" and engaged in a state of war.

Not exactly, in 1802 when the Louisiana purchase happened, the vast majority of the Midwest was unexplored by French, American or European settlers. Most tribal nations at that time were unknown to American or French governments. The tribes had no idea their land was being sold.

And as you know, if you have a flag...you can claim something as your own.

You are 1/2 correct about that. - Ask the boys on Mt. Suribachi. It takes a lot more than a flag.

I want a flag!!!

It was genocide and it started way before the 1800s.

Glad you agree.

You are still incorrect on your point of the U.S. government killing millions of it's own people. The "native peoples" of the Americas weren't subject to U.S. law or jurisdiction. They were recognized as independent tribes and sovereign nations. That makes them not "American" at all.

We disagree on this point. -- No worries.

I believe if you purchase, steal, acquire, take over the land, then the persons living on the land become part of your country. Regardless if you consider them citizens or not. Yes, I agree the USA didn't recognize Native Americans as citizens officially until 1924. However I think if you are taking over the land, then you are responsible for the people living on said land.

Having more guns, i.e. cannons doesn't mean you are allowed to kill an entire racial group.

Actually, yes it does. Having more guns means you are allowed to do whatever the hell you want to do until someone with more guns comes and stops you.

I see what you did here! He with the most toys wins!

Maybe I should have been more specific, I was referring to the moral and ethical responsibilities that governments should uphold. NOW, morals and ethics are much like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. And when looking back historically it is easier to condemn said actions. Personally I believe there are things that no leader should do. Genghis Khan shouldn't be a role model. We should learn and improve from history.

The people with the guns can do whatever the hell they want and call it whatever the hell they choose to call it. Right or wrong, it doesn't really matter what they're supposed to do or not supposed to do because they can impose their will upon those who cannot defend themselves against it.

Leaders of nations should not be accountable?

So after reading your posts Slim, I get the impression (feel free to correct), everybody should have guns and pie!

If we, the general populace, have guns it will limit or curtail governments ability to harm its citizens. And the pie is because it tastes good, and nothing more American than apple pie!

Edited July 1, 2009 by BluesTraveler

[Brad and Vika 129]

And I almost forgot ------

Not to leave out Kate and mox's side debate, but when the U.S. pulled out of Mogadishu, we basically turned on the green light for every terrorist and third-world rabble to take a shot. Prior to that, there was an established standard that if you trifled with us, you got dealt with. Severely and swiftly.

Since then, we've kind of been swatting mosquitoes as they bite us.

I believe the slide started much sooner than Somalia. Our flacid (pre-Reagan) response to the US Embassy/hostage situation in Tehran was the start.

[slim 1,530]

The Japanese camps were because we couldn't do it to German-Americans, because they 'looked like us'. White people in camps would have been an outrage. Asians, not so much. If a few Chinese or other Asian-Americans got tossed in too, it would be easier to explain than if an Anglo with a german sounding name got interred. If German's all had purple hair, you'd have seen German camps.

Same with Native Americans. They are 'different' thus their elimination from the planet is 'better' than genocide of jews, and other who 'look like us'

You can't tell me there is difference if the USSR absorbs a country and kills those citizens as 'enemies' for collective farming (killing its citizens) than the USA taking land from Native Americans for use by citizens (whites) and saying it is ok because they are 'enemies'

Once again, thank you for making my point.

The Native Americans who were slaughtered by the U.S. government, and yes it was genocide, were not "us." They were "them." If the United States government were to attempt to slaughter large numbers of our population, groups of armed citizens would stop it from happening or at least remove those responsible from power after the fact.

When the Japanese were interred back in the '40s, they were still kind of "them" even though they were technically "us." German-Americans didn't really trust Japanese-Americans all the way, but they wouldn't have stood for the slaughter of their own people, even if they did look different. By the 1940s, there was a well-developed sense of "if they can do that to them, they can do it to us, and we're not going to let that happen." Native Americans were never "us."

Even nowadays I think we probably treat the Iraqi's better than the Iroquois. (ohhh, see what I did there? )

Because nowadays is a different time. We wouldn't accept the wholesale slaughter of a people - any people - even during a war. It wasn't that long ago that we killed several hundred thousand Japanese and Germans in only a few short days. I'm talking fire-bombings, not nukes. It was socially acceptable for us to kill hundreds of thousands of "enemy" civilians in order to win the war. Today, no civilians are our "enemies" and even a few civilian casualties is unacceptable.

June 2, 1924 the Indian Citizenship Act recognized all Native Americans born in USA territory as US citizens.

To my knowledge, the U.S. government had completed it's wholesale slaughter of natives prior to 1924. After that, I don't think very many were killed at all. So, basically you just provided your own evidence to counter your own point. That makes a lazy man very happy. Thanks!

So after reading your posts Slim, I get the impression (feel free to correct), everybody should have guns and pie!

Absofreakinlutely!

If we, the general populace, have guns it will limit or curtail governments ability to harm its citizens.

Been reading the 2nd Amendment, have you?

And the pie is because it tastes good, and nothing more American than apple pie!

And because I'm fat.

For brevity's sake, I didn't cut and paste all your quotes and I do understand what you're saying about a country's responsibility to take care of all people within it's borders. I even agree with you from a moral standpoint. However, it's not reality, and in the real world, those who have guns are almost always taken more seriously than those who do not.

Our founding fathers created a Constitution that guaranteed our right to ensure our government never got out of hand and we could peacefully choose to provide all people with care and be responsible for them. But, what's happened in the recent past is we've forgotten that with wonderful rights comes great responsibility. We love the rights, but we've shunned the responsibility associated with them.

I believe the slide started much sooner than Somalia. Our flacid (pre-Reagan) response to the US Embassy/hostage situation in Tehran was the start.

To the trained eye, yes it was. However, the U.S. was able to spin it off as "oil-related" or not enough interest in the region or not in our best interest or how we didn't want to cause instability in the region and p!$$ off other friendly countries, etc., etc., etc. And the world bought it. Hell, most people in the world still think Iranians are Arabs. Back then, when they saw that story on the nightly news or heard about it on the BBC world report, it almost made sense.

When we pulled out of the Mog, there was nothing we could say because we weren't there for a good reason in the first place. "We're leaving these hungry people to fend for themselves because some guys with guns just came and stole all the food. Quite frankly, we're not going to lose any more guys to feed starving Africans. Sort it out yourselves." There was no spinning that, and the whole world could see it for exactly what it was.

[Ban Hammer 13,474]

I'm pretty far out of my depth when discussing the Native American issue, but it seems to me that what sticks in the craw of most Native Americans the most is that they (meaning multiple Indian nations) made treaties with us, and we broke those treaties over and over again when it suited us. I do agree that it was a different time and that attitudes were different, but I also think it makes the case that even so-called enlightened leaders are capable of some pretty heinous stuff. I'm sort of inclined to agree with slim that these people weren't really seen as "Americans," although I think they weren't really seen as human beings either. And at some point, when they really did become Americans (because we eventually did own the whole damn continent), we still continued to treat them as sub-human. Even nowadays I think we probably treat the Iraqi's better than the Iroquois. (ohhh, see what I did there? )

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

I feel so sheltered I dont know any Iraqi or Iroquoisi(not sure the plural of Iroquois kind of like the plural of ####### or moose or moose #######).

It also depends on where you live in this country and whether you would more likely to run into an Iraqi or Iroquois.

[BluesTraveler 0]

However, it's not reality, and in the real world, those who have guns are almost always taken more seriously than those who do not.

Guns / Nukes! If N.Korea didn't have a wholesale nuclear program would the rest of the world tolerate their crazy leader?

Our founding fathers created a Constitution that guaranteed our right to ensure our government never got out of hand and we could peacefully choose to provide all people with care and be responsible for them. But, what's happened in the recent past is we've forgotten that with wonderful rights comes great responsibility. We love the rights, but we've shunned the responsibility associated with them.

With great power, comes even greater responsibility. Not necessarily a fan of Obama but I pray to God he really understands it. Maybe he does being the Constitution law professor he was.

I believe the slide started much sooner than Somalia. Our flacid (pre-Reagan) response to the US Embassy/hostage situation in Tehran was the start.

When we pulled out of the Mog, there was nothing we could say because we weren't there for a good reason in the first place. "We're leaving these hungry people to fend for themselves because some guys with guns just came and stole all the food. Quite frankly, we're not going to lose any more guys to feed starving Africans. Sort it out yourselves." There was no spinning that, and the whole world could see it for exactly what it was.

The USA left an impotent UN force (oxymoron UN force?) there, and 10 years later the country doesn't have a government and the chaos and lawlessness i.e. pirates is getting out of control.

[mox 298]

When we pulled out of the Mog, there was nothing we could say because we weren't there for a good reason in the first place. "We're leaving these hungry people to fend for themselves because some guys with guns just came and stole all the food. Quite frankly, we're not going to lose any more guys to feed starving Africans. Sort it out yourselves." There was no spinning that, and the whole world could see it for exactly what it was.

The reason we pulled out of Mog was because the Republican-controlled Congress demanded it, and even threatened to withhold funding "the troops" in order to force Clinton to pull out. (And yes, I giggled when I wrote "force Clinton to pull out." *ahem*) Truth is often stranger than fiction.

Sorry, the pot seemed to need stirring.

[slim 1,530]

It also depends on where you live in this country and whether you would more likely to run into an Iraqi or Iroquois.

In your neck of the woods you have a much better chance of runing into an Iraqi. The Iroquois are all down my way.

Guns / Nukes! If N.Korea didn't have a wholesale nuclear program would the rest of the world tolerate their crazy leader?

Well, that and the complete lack of natural resources not justifying fighting a million man army thing.

With great power, comes even greater responsibility. Not necessarily a fan of Obama but I pray to God he really understands it. Maybe he does being the Constitution law professor he was.

Once again.... The Kansas City Shuffle!

The USA left an impotent UN force (oxymoron UN force?) there, and 10 years later the country doesn't have a government and the chaos and lawlessness i.e. pirates is getting out of control.

We could've done something about it, but like North Korea, there wasn't anything in it for us.

The reason we pulled out of Mog was because the Republican-controlled Congress demanded it, and even threatened to withhold funding "the troops" in order to force Clinton to pull out. (And yes, I giggled when I wrote "force Clinton to pull out." *ahem*) Truth is often stranger than fiction.

See above. And yes, Clinton "pulling out" is quite funny!

Sorry, the pot seemed to need stirring.

Speaking of stirring the pot, did Charles! just you? That's not something you see everyday!

[mox 298]

Speaking of stirring the pot, did Charles! just you? That's not something you see everyday!

Yeah, I almost hurt myself falling out of my chair. I'm pretty sure he must have had a stroke or something.

[slim 1,530]

Maybe he was looking at the poster above or below you.

- Or, could it be possible, maybe you guys actually agreed on something?

I'm calling ewok!

[Brad and Vika 129]

I'm calling ewok!

Slim, you know you are at the top of Ewok's block list.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

It also depends on where you live in this country and whether you would more likely to run into an Iraqi or Iroquois.

In your neck of the woods you have a much better chance of runing into an Iraqi. The Iroquois are all down my way.

Actually a good friend of ours is Iranian which is pretty close, he makes a great sausage and gravy omlet.

I'm calling ewok!

Slim, you know you are at the top of Ewok's block list.

Is being on top of that list a good thing like selection list for Nobel prizes or bad thing like worst dressed?

Either way you can look at the bright side, somewhere someone has you ranked #1 slim

[Ban Hammer 13,474]

Speaking of stirring the pot, did Charles! just you? That's not something you see everyday!

Yeah, I almost hurt myself falling out of my chair. I'm pretty sure he must have had a stroke or something.

wishful thinking on your part?

[slim 1,530]

Slim, you know you are at the top of Ewok's block list.

Since I've resigned myself to the Russia Forum, I'm pretty sure I'm not even a blip on Ewok's radar. He may have knowledge of who I am, but if I was in a lineup, I don't think he could pick me out from the other fat, bald, rich guys.

Actually a good friend of ours is Iranian which is pretty close, he makes a great sausage and gravy omlet.

And he's Canadian too?

Either way you can look at the bright side, somewhere someone has you ranked #1 slim

Just because Janet Napolitano knows who I am doesn't mean I'm #1... does it?

Anyway, I can still fly, I've never been to Cuba, and last time I bought a gun, I was only delayed a few minutes by NICS. Not too shabby!

[mox 298]

wishful thinking on your part?

Nah, I don't dislike anybody that much.