questions about love and commitment relative to K1 process

[Blues Fairy 0]

Let me just say that the 90 days is NOT a trial period and was not designed as such. If you have doubts about this relationship, TAKE MORE TIME to get to know each other before jumping into this.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

I guess that was what I was trying to say in a very convoluted and long winded way.

I agree with the Blues Fairy

[Turboguy 6]

I am a little tired tonight so I apologize if I come off as a hard azz. The K-1 visa is not intended as a chance to see if you might want to get married. It is a visa for two people who have already decided without a doubt that they do want to get married to have time to arrange their marriage. Blues Fairy is a very smart woman and is 100% correct. If there are doubts you should get them resolved before filing for a K-1. To use it as a vacation together to see if you might want to marry is borderline visa fraud.

Why can't you use it for a chance to see if you might want to marry. I can give you a one word answer. IMBRA! If it doesn't work you are partially screwedd. If you do want to marry a foreign woman you need to either wait two years or file for a waver. Your next shot could be your last if they start enforcing IMBRA more. I have been the biggest complainer about IMBRA but your post may almost make me think it is a good thing.

Did anyone ever do it. Yes, I did and it was a big mistake. In my case I was 200% committed and my first fiancee after starting out wanting it got wishy washy. She stayed 89 days and went home. My first fiancee was beautiful and had the most wonderful personality you could find but mentally she was a mess. I exchaged a few e-mails with someone I know and from what I heard afterr me, she did another K-1 but didn't go to the interview and then another and came back to America, Texas I belive, married and left him 3 weeks after the wedding.

In my case I started a new search and met a wonderful woman about 9 months after my first fiancee went back. I spent a lot of time with my new fiancee and made sure both of us had no doubts, filed another K-1 and had to file a waver. It was approved but because of the former K-1's we ended up in Administrative Review for 5 months and our visa really took a long time. We have now been married for a year and a half and my wife describes us as being the happiest couple she has ever met. To be honest I think one of the things I really liked was the total committment of my wife. After going through all the stuff my first fiancee put me through it was nice to fall in love with someone who had no doubts about what she wanted or that we were meant for each other.

I have seen a few others bring someone on a trial basis. I am trying to recall the handle of one I knew here. Sky Wolf or something like that. He was totally in love and she was wishy washy and ended up going back and breaking his heart. To be honest, having done it once where I was committed and the woman was unsure I would not even think of doing that again no matter how hot she was. It just wasn't worth the hurt and the heartbreak and the problems with IMBRA.

Personally in a situation like yours I don't think most people are looking for advice. I think they are really looking for confirmation that they are doing the right thing and you are not.

[Steve S 2]

If there are doubts you should get them resolved before filing for a K-1.

I respectfully disagree. I imagine almost all engaged people have doubts at one time or another, if they are at all honest with themselves. Even if they know fully in their hearts that they to be together for the rest of their lives. Is it any surprise that there may be even more doubts and nagging thoughts when much less time has been spent together than in a typical, non-international relationship?

To use it as a vacation together to see if you might want to marry is borderline visa fraud.

She is leaving a good job, flat, family and friends for a one-way flight to America. That cannot be trivialized as a "vacation". We signed an intent to marry and are truthful about the intention. There is no visa fraud.

If you do want to marry a foreign woman you need to either wait two years or file for a waver.

I am not in this to marry a foreign woman. I am concerned about any future visa applications for anyone else. Nothing against men who decide to try again overseas, just to say these waivers, etc. are not a concern for me. But I do not want to dwell further on thoughts about "what if?" because I believe our marriage is going to succeed.

Personally in a situation like yours I don't think most people are looking for advice. I think they are really looking for confirmation that they are doing the right thing and you are not.

Nobody else can tell me I am doing the right thing or not, even if they spend hours or days getting to know me and hearing the whole situation, not just reading a few paragraphs written after several glasses of wine which don't fully or even necessarily accurately describe the relationship. I just wanted to pose some thought questions that are in some way related to my situation, and it has been helpful to me as I wrote earlier to read and write on the topic. The encouraging posts as well as the more negative ones like yours have all been helpful in one way or another, and I appreciate all of your contributions.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

As far as using the 90 days as a trial period being "borderline Visa fraud," I disagree. The requirements for a K1 visa are that both couples are free to marry, and that they marry within 90 days. There is nothing else in the law that says otherwise.

Actually there IS another requirement --

(From I-129F Instructions)--

You may file this petition if:

1. You are a U.S. citizen, and

2. You and your fiancé(e) intend to marry within 90 days of your fiancé(e) entering the United States, and are both free to marry

Remember, you and the fiancee actually have to sign statements affirming that intent. So, filing the petition when you don't actually have that intent would be a pretty good case for fraud. Of course the difficulty is in PROVING what your actual intent was at any point in the process ---- a good reason NOT to come on forums like this and discuss your intent if you ARE thinking of using the K-1 as a "trial period."

Of course people are going to do whatever they want. I guess I would just prefer to encourage people to act like responsible adults and be certain of their decision before starting this process rather than encouraging them to act like ...well... like something other than responsible adults.

Of course, I'm also the guy who thinks that co-sponsers shouldn't be allowed for K Visas. If you can't afford to support a family you have no business getting married, no matter where the spouse is from.

Again, love is wonderful but we're talking here about being a "responsible adult."

And of course almost none of this has anything to do with the OPs original questions, so.....

[Blues Fairy 0]

In any case, I say again: who are you or me or any of us to judge how a couple conducts the 90 day period their K1 visa legitimately allows? As long as the law is followed, and they either marry or the non-USC departs before day 91, there is no problem. I see the argument against using 90 days as a trial period as the same argument against sex before marriage. If two consenting adults don't mind, why is it anyone else's business?

Because two consenting adults do not increase the backlog of cases at the USCIS with their application to have sex. K-1 filers, however, do and if they use their K-1 as a trial period they burden the government agency, paid for by our tax dollars, with a potentially useless case of paperwork. Sure, every K-1 has a probability of failure but for "trial" filers, this probability increases several times. It's not only stupid but irresponsible toward the taxpayer, to say nothing of the earnest filers who have to wait in line.

[slim 1,533]

If your upper head says yes

Both heads have to agree. As hard as it is to tell the one head to shut up for a minute, you have to make the conscious decision on whether or not to go through with the process using ONLY the upper head. I should know.

From listening to my SO and her friends, the Russian men are borderline immature in the way they show their affection. Like Jr. High crush style. And sometimes it reaches a disturbing level, as I have witnessed with an admirer of my SO while I was visiting Russia. Luckily he spoke enough English so i could convey my feelings on the subject at 3am when he wouldn't stop calling. Silly boys.

No extradition. 'Nuff said.

your tax dollars do not fund a K1 visa at all. The fees paid into the system pay for the entire process.

Yep, so if they're paying for it, they should get whatever they want and have as many tries as they wanna try.

For the record, I don't think using the 90-day window as a trial period is a good idea. I brought my wife over here on a "trial period" and we're 2 and 1/2 years into it, still trying. Interpret that however you want.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

Actually there IS another requirement --

(From I-129F Instructions)--

You may file this petition if:

1. You are a U.S. citizen, and

2. You and your fiancé(e) intend to marry within 90 days of your fiancé(e) entering the United States, and are both free to marry

Remember, you and the fiancee actually have to sign statements affirming that intent. So, filing the petition when you don't actually have that intent would be a pretty good case for fraud. Of course the difficulty is in PROVING what your actual intent was at any point in the process ---- a good reason NOT to come on forums like this and discuss your intent if you ARE thinking of using the K-1 as a "trial period."

Nothing about using the 90 days as a trial period is mutually exclusive to the requirement that you intend to marry. Obviously if you didn't intend to marry, then your decision has already been made, and you wouldn't be filing a K1. There's nothing wrong with saying you intend to marry, with a caveat that you want to make absolutely sure within your 90 day period.

Let's see---

"might marry" -- nope, that's not what it says....

'intend to marry IF".... no

"intend to marry assuming"... no

"intend to marry with the caveat that".... no

Let's see --- yep, we ARE writing and talking in the English language.....

Dictionary definitions of "intend" and/or "intent" --- "to plan" "to have in mind to do something" "to have in mind for a particular purpose or use" Hmmmm... nothing really there about conditionals, or contingencies, or caveats.

Although I DO think you've hit upon the solution ---- EVERYone who wants to use the K-1 as a "trial period" should be completely open and honest (which is after all, the "responsible adult" thing to do ) and include this caveat language within their "Statement of Intent". If USCIS approves their petitions and the Embassy issues the visas with these caveats in place -- then more power to them and enjoy the "free trial"!! Anyone out there willing to take that challenge?

[Neonred 3,937]

When we entered the country I clearly heard them say to her "you have 90 days to marry OR you must leave the country". They didn't say we absolutely had to get married. God knows there were a couple of days the first two months I was pretty sure we were NOT going to get married, but we made it through that, so in that sense it was a trial period. And let me say that I had spent a lot of time with my girl, not just one or two trips, more like 9 visits of two weeks or more each time.

Of course the intent is there as evidenced by the letter of intent and the fact one is filing for a fiancee visa, but once a couple start living together for the first time in this new country and new culture other forces come into play. No one really knows the outcome until they try.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

When we entered the country I clearly heard them say to her "you have 90 days to marry OR you must leave the country". They didn't say we absolutely had to get married. God knows there were a couple of days the first two months I was pretty sure we were NOT going to get married, but we made it through that, so in that sense it was a trial period. And let me say that I had spent a lot of time with my girl, not just one or two trips, more like 9 visits of two weeks or more each time.

Of course the intent is there as evidenced by the letter of intent and the fact one is filing for a fiancee visa, but once a couple start living together for the first time in this new country and new culture other forces come into play. No one really knows the outcome until they try.

Yes, everyone (including the USCIS) recognizes that things can change. Again, the instructions (and the law) doesn't say you MUST marry, you WILL marry, you WILL BE FORCED to marry, etc.... simply that you INTEND to marry. Lord knows, the first tme I got married I intended it to be forever. This time around, I INTEND that this will definitely be the LAST time I do this!!

The point is, anyone can (and should) do as you did ---- visit the person, spend time with the person, make sure of your feelings and the desire to be together, propose marriage to that person and make them your fiancee BEFORE you submit your I-129F petition and sign a statement declaring your intent to marry that person.

For those who don't have the patience to do that, the maturity to do that, or the finances to do that -- this simply is NOT the route for you!

[Rob_Lesya 4]

One other thing I want to say about this discussion----

None of this is personal against Mox. He gives very good advice on this forum-- most of the time! And I DO admire his dedication to his ideals and willingness to stick to his opinions-- even when he's blatently wrong.

And I think in this discussion Mox is imagining someone who DOES have relatively good intentions -- someone who simply isn't sure about whether this is the right person, etc, etc... and simply wants to take some time to find out.

Unfortunately, there ARE a lot of guys out there with intentions that are MUCH less than honorable! I remember a few years ago on the RW-L mailing list, there were a couple of guys who were married to Ukrainian women. These women left them, and so now the guys' attitude was "Well, I've now been f**ked by a Ukrainian girl so now I'm going to f**k as many Ukrainian girls as I can in return." They traveled to Ukraine 3-4 times a year on business. They would meet as many women as they could online, romance them, promise them the moon, make the girl think they've met their Prince Charming and found their future in America. Then when the guy was in Ukraine, he'd meet up with the girl and spend time with her until he got what he was after. Then he would completely disappear and move on to the next one. When he returned, he would post long, lurid details of his trip complete with his "scorecard."

Spend time on the WSGForum and you'll eventually come across someone suggesting to use the K-1 visa process in the same kind of manner. Generally, it's a guy who really can't afford to travel to Russia or Ukraine... but he figures he'll save up his money, make the trip once, try out a few girls, find a girl he likes, and bring her here on a K-1. He figures he'll have at least 90 days worth of fun, and there's SOOO many illegals here now --- if we keep moving, how long can she get away with being here illegally until she's forced to go back, and would they ever really FORCE her to go back, etc, etc.

I hope that most of us would agree that these are the types of guys whe DEFINITELY need to be kept away from this process at ALL costs!

[johnj 0]

I hope that most of us would agree that these are the types of guys whe DEFINITELY need to be kept away from this process at ALL costs!

Good points, agreed.

I have been on other forums a couple years ago that sort of kept scorecards; I thought it was cruel and discusting that anyone would lead someone on simply for the sake of self-satisfaction.

[Blues Fairy 0]

So you're arguing that it shouldn't be used as a trial period because it clogs up the system, which is not a legal argument. And certainly there's no evidence to support this claim either way (can you cite a percentage of filers who use the system in this manner?), and I could just as well argue that anyone who files clogs up the system, so maybe nobody should file, or maybe we should only limit filing from countries who have a higher likelihood of being approved. And of course all K1's are "potentially useless case[es] of paperwork" because the non-USC always has the option of returning to his or her country anyway.

As I said, the intention to use K-1 as a trial dramatically increases the chances of the fiance(e) returning to the home country. While it is within the law, such intentional abuse of K-1 visa prolongs the wait times for other filers whose intentions are more serious. You may demagogize as much as you like that everybody in effect clogs the system, but for those who understand the notion of personal responsibility, the idea I am promoting should be quite clear.

I am absolutely not surprised that you, IIRC having worked in a gov't institution, cannot accept the idea of making responsible choices while using a government program.

[baron555 934]

How is getting married on Day #1 or Day #15 or Day #60 or Day #89 any different?

How is any of this abuse of the K-1?

For us here in the Russian forum, most likely our SO (plus others from specific countries) never has been to the US.

So there is a large difference between our situations than other couples say from VWP countries whose SO may have visited here.

We can prepare our SO as best we can for the life change they agree to go through but nothing compares than actually doing it.

So in essence, yes there is a "trial" component to the K-1. Or maybe a better way to state it, there is a "safety relief" available to the SO.

And I agree, relationship-wise, we all should have a solid relationship and committment.

[Blues Fairy 0]

It's quite possible that using the K1 to "test the waters" dramatically increases the chance of the fiance(e) staying in the US.

... for all the wrong reasons.